Kitten/cat Intro Progression - Pushing The Line

[sivyaleah]

Been here on TCS for a long while, know the ropes, etc. but new to adult/kitten intros. I posted about a week or so ago and just would like some opinions on where things stand and our plan at the moment.

Kitten is now 18 weeks (Luna). Very well socialized, very polite to our resident 10 year old female Cocoabean. Meetings thus far have been mostly from behind a gate. Cocoa was quite hissy/growly at the first few meetings but the growling has pretty much stopped and the hissing has died down quite a bit too. She actively will seek out these moments herself - we keep the kittens safe room open with the gate up during daytime hours and frequently find Bean sitting nearby, with the kitten at the gate sitting nicely looking at her.

Cocoa does not seem at all annoyed by these encounters - just - hissy. No behavioral issues at all and is all lovey dovey to my husband and I within seconds of them ending. She isn't motivated by food or toys so we aren't able to use those tactics to teach her that being near the kitten is good and fun unfortunately. Let alone, the room is upstairs and well, Bean is very much a creature of habit and will NOT eat anywhere but her kitchen placemat LOL.

Anyway. Being as they have been face-to-face many times over the course of the last week or so we decided to push the envelope this weekend. We brought Luna downstairs to explore our 1st floor living area. Bean, as expected, did her little hissing bit but, was not aggressive to her and eventually just sat down and watched for a while and then walked off.

We thought this was pretty decent. So this week we intend to continue giving Luna downstairs time. She's getting to a point where keeping her couped up in our spare bedroom is really cramping her style. She needs more space badly. Our plan is when I get home from work tonight, to bring her down and allow her to be with us for a few hours while I cook dinner, we eat and watch tv, relax etc. We can keep her much better entertained in a larger space and there are lots more things for her to do there too. Bean - for her part - has plenty of "up high" areas to run off to if she chooses and of course, can always go upstairs too if she's miffed enough. I somehow think she won't though. I suspect she's going to keep a close on on Luna and try to continue figuring her out.

This morning Luna managed to escape the bedroom when I went in to bring her breakfast (she's getting clever!) and Bean was in the hallway. They saw each other, Bean looked kind of stunned but didn't hiss this time. The kitten, was like "whoa!" and ran back into the room LOL.

We really need to have her incorporated and well, both my husband and I are feeling like Cocoabean is not going to do anything aggressive at this point to her but I'd still like some opinions. Luna is beginning to act more like a teenage cat now - not so much that tiny kitten phase and we do not want her frustrated by being enclosed more than need be now.

Thoughts?

 

[ArtNJ]

Adult cats don't purposefully hurt kittens. And you have a respectful or still somewhat skittish kitten -- i.e. a kitten not jumping on the big cat. Thats huge. Finally, your big cat doesn't seem especially stressed in the scheme of things. It all adds up to essentially nothing to worry about. You could easily just put them together full time now, but certainly there is no harm in continuing the monitored visits a bit longer. Things could still change a bit I suppose, for example if the little one gets over some skittishness and goes play-crazy, jumping all over the big one and just ignoring the hissing or even some swatting. I think the risk of serious problems is very remote at this point though, so you can make your own judgment as to the best course.

 

[sivyaleah]

Thanks A ArtNJ
She's actually a confident kitten, not in the least fearful or skittish. Nothing seems to faze her but she's also fairly respectful and has learned her cat manners quite well. She was kept with her mom/family until nearly 16 weeks old.

We let her have full range of our downstairs for 3 hours last night. Cocoabean was as usual, hissy and an occasional growl but for the most part managed to ignore Luna unless she got too close for comfort. She did at one point make it clearer to Luna she meant business but no swiping happened and Luna did walk off - slightly admonished, but recovered quickly.

I did get both of them to eat a snack together, on opposite sides of the kitchen. Luna of course didn't care in the least. Cocoa was aware and looked back a few times at Luna but, I think realized the kitten wasn't coming for her food so she went about her business. I also got her to eat some treats while the kitten was near her at one point too and we made sure to praise her for good behaviors when she exhibited them. Luna for her part, really enjoyed her playtime in a larger space, exploring and getting to know the rest of the house. She even figured out the stairs in no time flat although at first seemed to forget where she was and how to find us again I came up, reminded her she knew how to get back down and that was that.

Since no blood was shed LOL, we'll continue this daily. It certainly was easier on my husband and I, not having one of us to monitor her in a separate room. That was beginning to take a toll on us too and Cocoabean needed more company as well. Bean will need time, which we know, and it's only been just over a full week since we started to have them interacting together. Gosh I have to keep reminding myself that it took a full month before Bean even wanted to venture out of that same room and join us downstairs when she came to live with us so this is going somewhat easier than before!

 

[Furballsmom]

.

 

[sivyaleah]

So it's a few days later more or less the same old same old.

Last night was interesting. Luna is really starting to get more interested in Cocoa so she was pushing the boundaries. We noticed Cocoa is ok if the kitten stays about 2 feet away from her. Once she crosses that imaginary line that's when she starts to get hissy.

Well, Luna crossed it many many times last night. Cocoa was not amused. At one point, I really thought Cocoa was going to go after her. My husband yelled out at Cocoa to stop, I was NOT happy about that as we had previously talked about the right way to handle this if it happened. Thankfully no blows happened and that ended without any further drama occurring.

Later, I gave Cocoa something to snack on and Luna came dashing out of nowhere and literally stuck her face into the bowl just as Cocoa was. OMG. I really thought this was going to be the end of Luna. Instead, Cocoa ran off and ran under the kitchen table. I felt awful. Ran Luna off. Gave Cocoa her kibble. Ugh. Made up with Cocoa by grooming her - which she adores.

The rest of the time Luna was downstairs was with her either pushing Cocoa's space limits or just running around doing her own thing with Cocoa not caring much. At one other point, they both passed each other going up/down the stairs and neither one reacted to that at all, which I thought was interesting and I wonder if it's because Cocoa doesn't view the stairway as "territory" she had to defend.

Through all of this, however, Cocoa never leaves the area. It isn't like she's running upstairs to get away. She moves around the downstairs rather easily - not skulking, not slinking, she looks confident in her movements. She goes about the rooms as her usual self, from space to space, area to area like she would if Luna was there or not. She watches Luna, or not. She's interested. Or not.

We didn't keep Luna downstairs quite a long as we would have as we felt that it was a bit more than Cocoa needed and put her in her room about an hour or so earlier than we planned to. Cocoa was perfectly fine the rest of the night. Later on, I noticed Cocoa sniffing at the litter box we put in our hallway for the kitten to use - and saw that Luna had pooped in it. I somehow thought that might put Cocoa off, or cause her to react poorly but she appeared to be interested, inquisitive and walked calmly away once she inspected it. IDK maybe that was a good thing?

Cats.

 

[ArtNJ]

You would likely have already seen it if Cocoa had it in her to physically teach the kitten to respect boundaries (which is not a bad thing, although it might be off putting the first time you see it). I don't think you need to worry about violence at all -- not all cats have it in them to get into it with a kitten. Acting angsty is quite normal too, with a hiss or the occasional swipe. You'll likely see more of that as the kitten gets increasingly feisty.

Bottom line, its going well enough, nothing to worry about. I mentioned that the kitten might get a little feisty, and you still have further in that direction things could go. Might slow down progress, but it won't stop it entirely. Continue to let them work things out.

 

[sivyaleah]

A ArtNJ Yep, inclined to continue this way.
Would like my husband to remember to allow them to work it out themselves. It's one thing to keep an eye out, and be alert to react properly if it escalates but I'm no fan of yelling using their names for instance. Nor do I think coddling Cocoa right after she hisses is a good idea.

I read something very interesting today - that stopping a cat when they are hissing/growling at another cat is basically like stopping a human in the middle of a conversation. It's not fun to be interrupted, lose your chain of thought or not make your point. If the cat can't get their feelings put across to the other cat, it's kind of like a discussion trailing off with no resolution. So, you have to let them just do what they have to do.

 

[ArtNJ]

A lot of people try and distract their cats when they seem to be getting into it with each other, and I don't think that especially hurts anything (provided the cats aren't so stressed that they lash out at you). But you are right, you need to let them work things out, get it out of their system. I like to explain it a little differently than a conversation -- I say it takes energy to act all angsty, and if there is no actual fighting to reinforce it, they get exhausted with it and the behavior tapers off. But either way, yep, they need to work it out.

 

[sivyaleah]

A lot of people try and distract their cats when they seem to be getting into it with each other, and I don't think that especially hurts anything (provided the cats aren't so stressed that they lash out at you). But you are right, you need to let them work things out, get it out of their system. I like to explain it a little differently than a conversation -- I say it takes energy to act all angsty, and if there is no actual fighting to reinforce it, they get exhausted with it and the behavior tapers off. But either way, yep, they need to work it out.

I suppose that's why playing helps - I found one toy Cocoa likes that really gets her riled up and pulls her prey drive out, but the kitten keeps running after it too LOL

 

[GreyLady]

It sounds normal. I think you just need to back off and let them work it out. Cocoa will probably need to put the kitten in her place and teach her manners. For Grey Cat and Noodle, this still happened occasionally even a couple months after they were living together peacefully. Kittens just need to slowly learn how much space to give an older cat- it sounds like yours will get along just fine

 

[sivyaleah]

It sounds normal. I think you just need to back off and let them work it out. Cocoa will probably need to put the kitten in her place and teach her manners. For Grey Cat and Noodle, this still happened occasionally even a couple months after they were living together peacefully. Kittens just need to slowly learn how much space to give an older cat- it sounds like yours will get along just fine

Thanks for the reminder. Last night went better. Bean slept most of the time Luna was downstairs and for the most part when awake, was fairly tolerant. And Luna, for her part, seemed to be more mindful of Bean's warnings. Cocoa also had a snack with Luna around with no incident. Went better than the previous evening

 

[Furballsmom]

 

[blumarine916]

I totally understand how stressful it is to be constantly monitoring how 2 cats are behaving to one another. I did that for about 4 months until I got tired of it and just let them be. GreyLady is right. You need to back off and let them work it out. The more you notice every little thing the more stress you are putting on yourself because you start having expectations the next day/week or so. If nothing changes, it will disappoint you and make you feel like there is no improvement.

Your cats definitely look like they are trying to find a comfortable zone with each other in the same room. Continue to play with them when you can and if there’s hissing, let them be. They will know when to walk away from conflict. Try not to pay too much attention to them because when you do, cats can sense your anxiety/fear. Back away, leave them be and you will feel a lot lot more relaxed.

 

[GreyLady]

Thanks for the reminder. Last night went better. Bean slept most of the time Luna was downstairs and for the most part when awake, was fairly tolerant. And Luna, for her part, seemed to be more mindful of Bean's warnings. Cocoa also had a snack with Luna around with no incident. Went better than the previous evening

Yay! I think it will all be uphill from here.

My cats are similar ages so everything you are typing is SO familiar- Grey is 9 or 10 and Noodle is about a year and a half now. So you saying the kitten goes to steal the toy is like my life. I haven't found a good solution to playing with the older cat, Grey, and not having young Noodle take over though. If I try to play with him while she's there, she's just too fast and he just sits and watches, occasionally grabbing it if It comes close. If I put her in another room she will literally scratch a hole in the carpet (damage already done...) because she cant stand knowing the toy is out and she can't get it, and he will be staring at the door because shes making a racket.

I think older cats sometimes just get taken back from all the energy, like "woah, I'm backing up now, you're intense..."

 

[LannyLC]

Just read this thread and learned so much. I'm introducing two 3 year olds. It's comforting to read just let them work it out. Sometimes I intervene because I'm assigning human code onto these felines. But these furry friends have their own code in their interactions. (((Bean, Luna, Grey and Noodle))) haha so cute

 

[sivyaleah]

Thanks everyone.

I think one of the reasons we are putting some expectations on this to happen quicker than we normally would is we have 2 places we need to be next week which will require our pet sitter to be there with the kitten for the first time. While she's been great with our grown cats (she's also a great friend aside from cat sitter) we are concerned about the fact that Luna isn't fully integrated yet and it might be a bit much for our friend to balance both cats needs. It would be a lot easier for her if the 2 cats were already getting along well enough that she could let Luna out of her room while she was there but I think at this point, that's going to be too much to ask of her. And I am concerned about her being careful going in and out of the room Luna is in which, is the room our friend will also be staying in unless we let her use our bedroom for the night (which now that I think of it, might be better).

 

[LannyLC]

I understand totally. I just had to get a cat sitter for 3 nights while away at a conference ... after only getting Lanny 3 weeks ago. It went fine. If anything, they get confidence through interaction with all the lovely people in your life. My cat sitter sleeps in my master bedroom so she has the freedom to separate cats if needed.

 

[sivyaleah]

So, today there seems to be a detente of sorts happening *fingers crossed*
Actually maybe it started yesterday. I noticed that Cocoabean seemed a lot more interested when Luna was playing alone, and didn't seem to mind the times that she came near her when she was occupied with her toys. Plus, over the weekend Luna had her rabies shot and she did have a side effect from it of making her somewhat tired for the rest of that day and night which I think worked in her favor as far as Cocoa was concerned - since she wasn't quite as high energy it gave Cocoabean a chance to not be quite as aggravated with her and she was able to be around her without worrying that she was going to bound up to her face every few minutes (in fact, Luna pretty much clung onto me until the next morning).

So, today, no hissing from Cocoa at all. My husband was with them all day and said it was pretty peaceful. He spent a good amount of time with her today separately from Luna to be sure she got enough attention. Later, they ate dinner together in the kitchen with no issue.

When I got home, both were sleeping in window beds on opposite sides of the couch. When awake, Cocoa walked past Luna several times without any incidence. They both had an evening snack - again, ate together in the kitchen without any apparent annoyance from Cocoabean at all. She didn't even look behind to see if Luna was there.

Cocoa seemed a lot more upbeat than she's been too. Somewhat chatty and even flopped onto the floor for belly rubs which she hasn't done for several days.

So, today was a good day and if lucky maybe *again crossing fingers* we've crossed the bridge as far as the hissy fit part of it. A peaceful co-existence would be good enough for now. Them becoming friends will happen when it happens but as along as it's calm and quiet, we'll all be happy.

PS: We also changed our plans for the week just in case. Sold our tickets for the concert we were going to over the weekend (oh well, at least I was able to get rid of them) and my husband is going to the other thing on his own and I'll come home early to watch the kitties. I feel a lot better without the stress of not knowing how we were going to handle all that!

 

[Furballsmom]

WOW !! I may have said this already, but seriously, !!

 

[blumarine916]

That’s wonderful! You can actually start relaxing from now and just let them be. The moment they can ignore one another, even for an hour is a good sign that they will eventually accept each other’s presence and hopefully be friends. There will still be a bit of hissing now and then but it won’t be anything serious. You can peacefully leave the house for longer periods of time now. Your kits will be fine.

Mine just recently started playing with each other again after being “enemies” for the past 6 months.