Judge my cat food recipe

Azazel

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A Alig224 Did you end up also adding an iodine source to your recipe? Are you calculating nutrients in the supplement mix you are using and comparing with AAFCO recommendations?
 
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Alig224

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I'm not sure where you saw those prices! Here's a link for Alnutrin, the $14.95 bag makes 16 pounds of food, so that's less than $1 a pound. The $19.95 bag makes 40 pounds, so that's only 50 cents a pound.
Know What You Feed Your Cat - Shop Online

You don't want your cat to end up with nutritional deficiencies. That would be a lot more expensive to fix (if it could even be fixed) than Alnutrin.
Ah, thanks for pointing that out. The line "each pack should be mixed with 1 lb of meat" threw me off, didn't realize there are 12 packs in each container.

I can't find anywhere on this website if this mix can be used with cooked food instead of raw. Does anyone know?
 
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Alig224

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A Alig224 Did you end up also adding an iodine source to your recipe? Are you calculating nutrients in the supplement mix you are using and comparing with AAFCO recommendations?
Interesting read...
What Is AAFCO?

Given that the AAFCO is not a regulatory government agency like the FDA and that most of the representatives are from the commercial pet food industry, I'm not 100% sure that their recommendations should be the golden standard on how we feed our dogs and cats.

The Life Extension Cat Mix I linked in my OP indicates a serving size of 2 scoops of the supplement powder. I am considering switching to the Alnutrin mix with calcium, though other than the inclusion of calcium supplement, both lists of ingredients look pretty similar to me. Though I haven't yet compared them both line-for-line.

Since my OP I have started adding a pinch of iodized salt to about 2lb of meat that I cook for my cat. The exact salt ratio required in cat's diet is still something I'm researching to make sure I am getting it right.
 

Azazel

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Interesting read...
What Is AAFCO?

Given that the AAFCO is not a regulatory government agency like the FDA and that most of the representatives are from the commercial pet food industry, I'm not 100% sure that their recommendations should be the golden standard on how we feed our dogs and cats.

The Life Extension Cat Mix I linked in my OP indicates a serving size of 2 scoops of the supplement powder. I am considering switching to the Alnutrin mix with calcium, though other than the inclusion of calcium supplement, both lists of ingredients look pretty similar to me. Though I haven't yet compared them both line-for-line.

Since my OP I have started adding a pinch of iodized salt to about 2lb of meat that I cook for my cat. The exact salt ratio required in cat's diet is still something I'm researching to make sure I am getting it right.
I know what AAFCO is. I'm not claiming that the AAFCO is a golden standard. But, if you're planning on feeding the same food every day that you formulated yourself, you should probably have a standard that you are using to judge whether you are including too little or too much nutrients.

You would need to have the dmb amounts of the ingredients in the mixes per weight to be able to compare them directly.

Why don't you just follow an already established and credible recipe? Catinfo.org and feline-nutrition.org both have good ones.

Is the salt you're using lite salt?
 

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I can't find anywhere on this website if this mix can be used with cooked food instead of raw.
You could email them to be sure. But here on their recipe page, the Hydrogen's Gourmet Chicken Stew is cooked so I'm going to say yes. And there's even a little broccoli in it ;). Just an ounce per 2 pounds of meat but hey.
Know What You Feed Your Cat - Recipe Library
 

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Yes I know, you mentioned Dr. Pitcairn 3 times now. Congrats. I’m not confused, but I appreciate your condescending tone. It really helps get your point across.

There is no advantage to using vegetables for nutrients for cats over animal matter. The only reason to do this is if you absolutely do not have access to the nutrients in a more biologically appropriate form.

Most cats get along just fine without any vegetables or plant matter in their diet. Some can use a little soluble fiber to make up for the lack of animal fur and cartilage in their diet.
You haven't linked to any websites with experts saying vegetables are essentially worthless to a cat. I've linked to 2 and can link to others. All one has to do is google "cats vegetables".

That's another gross misrepresentation of what I've said. I never said to substitute vegetables for the vital nutrients cats get from meat. In fact, I said the vast majority of cat nutrition should come from meat. Vegetables are the most nutrient dense foods on the planet and are a safeguard to make sure cats are getting enough nutrients. You can't get Vitamin C from meat and although cats make their own vitamin C some cats don't make enough and some cats need antioxidants like Vitamin C to boost their immune system. Most raw food recipes use a powdered form of nutrients to make the recipe nutritionally complete. I'd rather use a fresh source of the nutrients like vegetables, seeds, or grains. Cats have no problem digesting these foods as long as they're pre-digested. This is well proven by studies. I've added finely chopped kale to my cats' food for 10+ years and have never seen small green specks in their poop. Occasionally I'll find undigested millet in it, but it's the grains that weren't fully cooked. Here's an interesting article describing how some of the earliest domesticated cats consumed millet, most likely from the guts of the mice they ate.

China Cat? Ancient Chinese May Have Domesticated Felines

Btw, since you referenced Lisa Pierson's site, she doesn't have a problem with adding pre-digested vegetables to a cat's food. She also claims that animal fur and cartilage don't constitute fiber and the only fiber source is plant based.
 

Azazel

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You haven't linked to any websites with experts saying vegetables are essentially worthless to a cat. I've linked to 2 and can link to others. All one has to do is google "cats vegetables".

That's another gross misrepresentation of what I've said. I never said to substitute vegetables for the vital nutrients cats get from meat. In fact, I said the vast majority of cat nutrition should come from meat. Vegetables are the most nutrient dense foods on the planet and are a safeguard to make sure cats are getting enough nutrients. You can't get Vitamin C from meat and although cats make their own vitamin C some cats don't make enough and some cats need antioxidants like Vitamin C to boost their immune system. Most raw food recipes use a powdered form of nutrients to make the recipe nutritionally complete. I'd rather use a fresh source of the nutrients like vegetables, seeds, or grains. Cats have no problem digesting these foods as long as they're pre-digested. This is well proven by studies. I've added finely chopped kale to my cats' food for 10+ years and have never seen small green specks in their poop. Occasionally I'll find undigested millet in it, but it's the grains that weren't fully cooked. Here's an interesting article describing how some of the earliest domesticated cats consumed millet, most likely from the guts of the mice they ate.

China Cat? Ancient Chinese May Have Domesticated Felines

Btw, since you referenced Lisa Pierson's site, she doesn't have a problem with adding pre-digested vegetables to a cat's food. She also claims that animal fur and cartilage don't constitute fiber and the only fiber source is plant based.
Let me simplify what I'm saying to you since you seem confused...

I am not saying that cats do not eat any vegetables in the stomach of their prey. Heck, they enjoy eating grass for probably no reason at all, and they're attracted to some plants such as mushrooms because of the strong umami smell. I am also not saying that cats cannot utilize soluble fiber from plants. As I mentioned before, I sometimes give my cats plain canned pumpkin.

As I said in my initial response to you:

Cats have very little to no need for vegetables. Being that they are obligate carnivores, they cannot properly process plant matter.
When I see people on these forums devising recipes with vegetables I always question what benefits they believe those vegetables are giving their cats. This is because it's often a slippery slope to feeding a tiny amount of vegetables to making vegetables a significant part of a cat's diet.

Most raw food recipes use a powdered form of nutrients to make the recipe nutritionally complete. I'd rather use a fresh source of the nutrients like vegetables, seeds, or grains. Cats have no problem digesting these foods as long as they're pre-digested.
The potential problem with this is two-fold and there are different schools of thought on this. Many are uncomfortable with formulating foods that use plant matter as a supplementary source of nutrients because we know very little about how well cats can actually digest and make use of those nutrients. I feel a lot safer using powdered supplements because I know exactly how much my cats are getting. The second problem is that once again this is a slippery slope to increasing the amount of plant matter and carbs in a cat's diet which can lead to long-term health issues down the road.

ou can't get Vitamin C from meat and although cats make their own vitamin C some cats don't make enough and some cats need antioxidants like Vitamin C to boost their immune system. Most raw food recipes use a powdered form of nutrients to make the recipe nutritionally complete.
Raw organs such as liver do contain vitamin C. We homemade raw feeders include raw organs in our batches.

Btw, since you referenced Lisa Pierson's site, she doesn't have a problem with adding pre-digested vegetables to a cat's food. She also claims that animal fur and cartilage don't constitute fiber and the only fiber source is plant based.
Yes, she doesn't have a problem with it if it is less than 5% of the diet. Which is what I have been saying.
Where did you see the claim about cartilage and fur? I have read her site many times and have never seen that.

Here is what she says in regard to veggies, fruits, and grains:

You will note that I do not include any vegetables, fruits, or grains in my cats’ diet. There seems to be a strong anthropomorphic drive for the addition of vegetables to a carnivore’s diet – some people just can’t get past the idea that while vegetables may be good for humans, they are not a dietary necessity for a carnivore and will often cause problems in the digestive tract of the cat if fed in large amounts.


Cats lack the digestive enzymes necessary to efficiently process these ingredients – especially in the raw form – into a usable form. Many people insist on adding large amounts of species-inappropriate vegetables to a carnivore’s diet arguing that they would eat them along with the stomach and intestines of their prey. However, these arguments do not take into account the fact that this vegetable matter is pre-digested by the prey’s own enzymes – enzymes that are lacking in the cat.


In addition to this very important fact, the amount of vegetable matter in the average bird or mouse is extremely small and often the stomach and the intestines are not even consumed by the cat.


That said, some people do use a small amount of vegetables and I don’t have a problem with that as long as the amount is minimal (~5% by weight). If you choose to use a small amount of vegetable matter in this diet, do not feed them raw. Steam the vegetables first to help break them down to a more usable form for a carnivore.


Regarding grains – please disregard recipes that add grains to an obligate carnivore’s diet. We want to refrain from feeding cats as if they were horses or cows.
 

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Given that the AAFCO is not a regulatory government agency like the FDA and that most of the representatives are from the commercial pet food industry, I'm not 100% sure that their recommendations should be the golden standard on how we feed our dogs and cats.
I find that a highly misleading statement. It implies that the AAFCO recommendations come entirely from the pet food industry. That is not true.

The FDA's role in pet food oversight is limited, mostly involving what ingredients are considered safe to use. It is mostly up to individual states to regulate pet foods. About half have adopted AAFCO recommendations into their feed laws. As a matter of practicality, any pet food manufactured to be distributed nationally will follow the recommendations in order to not violate federal or state laws.

The AAFCO recommendations start with the National Research Council (NRC) publication "Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats". The AAFCO then adjusts the recommendations to be more appropriate for use with manufactured foods.

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Nestle, Marion, Malden C. Nesheim. Feed Your Pet Right. Free Press, 2010. Print

pg 30
AAFCO is a voluntary, nonprofit corporation. It's membership consists of state and federal officials in charge of implementing feed laws, and researchers who conduct studies on animal feeds.
pg 31
NRC's recommended allowance in the mid-1980's ... did not account for variations in bioavaility - how well food ingredients are digested, absorbed, and metabolized - or losses of nutrients that occur when pet foods are cooked.

AAFCO set about developing nutrient profiles that take such factors into consideration.
pg 93, referring to the AAFCO pet food committee
In 2009, the pet food committee consisted of ten members, three of them FDA officials and the others state feed control officials. Like other AAFCO committees, the pet food committee has its own trade advisory group. AAFCO says, "It is the general practice of AAFCO to invite representatives of industry/trade associations and consumer groups to serve as advisors." These representatives are "to be available to answer questions relevant to animal nutrition, analytical expertise, industry practices or other pertinent questions." Advisors sit in on committee meetings but do not vote.
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As for what the NRC is...

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www.national-academies.org

The National Research Council was organized by the National Academy of Sciences in 1916 to associate the broad community of science and technology with the Academy's purpose of furthering knowledge and advising the federal government. Functioning in accordance with general policies determined by the Academy, the Council has become the principal operating agency of both the National Academy of Sciences and the National Academy of Engineering in providing services to the government, the public and the scientific and engineering communities. The Council is administered jointly by both Academies and the Institute of Medicine. Dr. Ralph J. Cicerone and Dr. Wm. Wulf are chairman and vice chairman, respectively, of the National Research Council.
-------------------

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National Academies of Science. Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats. The National Academies Press:2006. Print

pg vii
In 2000, The National Research Council Committee on Animal Nutrition convened the ad hoc Committee on Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats to revise the 1985 and 1986 publications on Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Nutrient Requirements of Cats, respectively. The task presented to the committee was as follows:

... The new report will provide updated estimates of requirements for all nutrients and will contain discussion of nutrient metabolism, toxicity, deficiency, and nutritionally related disease in both dogs and cats. Information on impacts of physiologic status, temperature, breed, age and environment on nutrient requirements will also be included. The revised report will address unique
biological characteristics affecting nutrient digestion and utilization. General considerations regarding feed ingredients, diet formulation, and feed processing and manufacturing will be presented.

... We held public meetings in conjunction with professional meetings and invited experts to speak with us as we worked to complete our task. Over the course of 3 years, the committee held six meetings and four public sessions. ... By combining a through literature review with a critical analysis of scientific data and professional experiences, the committee developed recommendations that are firmly grounded in science.

... The report will be used by professionals in industry and academia for formulating diets and identifying new topics for research. Government officials may use the report as guidance for regulations for pet food labeling. Students and teachers at universities
will use the report as a textbook for dog and cat nutrition. Finally, pet owners will use the report in evaluating feeding decisions for their pets.

...Nutrient requirement data presented in this report are derived from peer-reviewed literature. An extensive amount of new research conducted since the previous National Research Council publications on dogs and cats was available for this NRC report...
----------------

I have a copy of the full published report. The information contained in it is supported by, without exaggeration, hundreds of references to published, peer reviewed, research.
 
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Alig224

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Well it looks like my homemade cat food making journey is over. Over the last few days, my cat came down with a bad bout of constipation, which required a trip to the vet lasting several hours. $200 later, I can say that I can't bring myself to risk this again, and will switch him back to commercial Nulo cat food only from now on. Although it was very embarrassing to tell my vet that I recently started feeding him homecooked food, she did not lecture me. The vet staff told me it was fine as long as I consult with a pet nutritionist or veterinary school (?). While I could pursue that further, to me it's not worth the risk of my cat's health. I am surprised that a little homemade food would cause such a severe reaction, but it is what it is. I love my Louie to bits so I feel pretty crappy about this whole ordeal, given that I was trying to improve his quality of life not make it worse :(.

It's not clear what specifically caused his constipation. I included plenty of water and broth in the homemade food, and added the teaspoon of pumpkin puree as recommended by many people for added fiber content. I also tried some Miralax as my vet recommended before bringing him in the office, but it was probably too late at that point.

It's too bad because I just got my package of Alnutrin in the mail, so if anyone is in the Orlando area, let me know if you want a free package!
 

Azazel

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Well it looks like my homemade cat food making journey is over. Over the last few days, my cat came down with a bad bout of constipation, which required a trip to the vet lasting several hours. $200 later, I can say that I can't bring myself to risk this again, and will switch him back to commercial Nulo cat food only from now on. Although it was very embarrassing to tell my vet that I recently started feeding him homecooked food, she did not lecture me. The vet staff told me it was fine as long as I consult with a pet nutritionist or veterinary school (?). While I could pursue that further, to me it's not worth the risk of my cat's health. I am surprised that a little homemade food would cause such a severe reaction, but it is what it is. I love my Louie to bits so I feel pretty crappy about this whole ordeal, given that I was trying to improve his quality of life not make it worse :(.

It's not clear what specifically caused his constipation. I included plenty of water and broth in the homemade food, and added the teaspoon of pumpkin puree as recommended by many people for added fiber content. I also tried some Miralax as my vet recommended before bringing him in the office, but it was probably too late at that point.

It's too bad because I just got my package of Alnutrin in the mail, so if anyone is in the Orlando area, let me know if you want a free package!
Sorry to hear this. Were you feeding raw bone? Was the food you were feeding fully cooked or raw, and what exactly were you feeding?
I'm also curious about what the symptoms of the constipation were and over what time period (e.g., did you transition to the new food slowly and did the constipation occur right away- what were the signs?).
 

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Poor Louie hope he gets well soon. I will start minish with homemade raw, so I was concerned for her as well, hearing this news. But since minish occasionally eats raw meat and is fine with it, I can't imagine how eating raw enriched with taurine fish oil etc can produce this reaction. Maybe it's the calcium source? I'm more concerned about diarrhea. Please let us know when he is better 🤗
 
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Alig224

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Sorry to hear this. Were you feeding raw bone? Was the food you were feeding fully cooked or raw, and what exactly were you feeding?
I'm also curious about what the symptoms of the constipation were and over what time period (e.g., did you transition to the new food slowly and did the constipation occur right away- what were the signs?).
Louie is back home and doing fine today. I am having to monitor him for the next week though to make sure he poops.
I was feeding him cooked meats only, nothing raw. I was not including any bones since of course feeding cooked bones is dangerous.
I switched the proteins I was feeding him based on what I could find in the store for a given week, so I fed him cooked ground turkey meat (not the lean kind) with the leftover broth included, chicken drumstick meat (with skin on), chicken thigh meat (boneless, skinless), and cooked chicken livers. I chopped all of these meats finely with a knife, and tried to include as much broth as possible. I also mixed one scoop of the Life Extension Cat Mix supplement into the food.

I wasn't very consistent with the transition from his old food to the homemade food. Some days I mixed in half of his canned food, and other days I fed him only the homemade food for lunch and dinner. He eats 3 times a day. I have an automatic feeder setup to dispense dry food early in the morning. I never disabled the auto feeder, so he has never stopped having the dry kibble for breakfast. He never had issues with constipation before, at least not to this extent. As far as I can remember, I found his poops in the litter box every day. So, I think that means he was never constipated before this.
 

Azazel

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I think the transition could have gone more slowly. When transitioning to a new food I give less than half an ounce of the new food for the first day and wait and see what happens before I gradually increase.

What were the symptoms of the constipation?
 
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Alig224

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It started when there were no poops in his litter box for a whole day. My memory isn't great because I wasn't paying close enough attention at the time, but I think he was pooping about every other day. This started maybe a week ago? However he totally stopped pooping for 3 days straight and that's when I called the vet. After his exam the vet said he was very constipated, meaning that maybe he wasn't defecating frequently enough even before I started to notice the absence of poop in the litter box. The timing definitely coincides with the introduction of the new food, though I'm baffled as to what specifically caused it.
 

Azazel

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Cats on homemade diets usually don't poop every day. Their poop is also smaller, harder, and drier. The reason is that there are no unnecessary fillers or carbs in the diet. But, it will depend on what you're feeding and whether it's cooked or raw. Transitioning to a new diet also can change pooping habits for up to 2 weeks. Constipation is usually accompanied by straining, frequently trying to poop but not being able to, and sometimes crying in the litter box.
 

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I trust my cats behavior over peoples theories on cats... all six of my indoor cats act ravenous for grass if they go without it for any period of time, especially oat grass. Some of my cats were formerly outdoor and if they ever get a chance to slip out their first priority is not to make a run for it but to run to the closest grass patch and start chomping away. I sometimes pick grasses for them outside and bring them in to put in small vases for them to chew and they literally follow me around the house up on their hind legs yowling and jumping for the grass as I’m preparing it. One even drools in advance of it. None of them throw up after eating it except one on occasion who has hair all issues will sometimes vomit when she eats too much. I notice they gnaw sturdier blades of grass with their back molars and seem to enjoy this act of gnawing on the blades which makes me think it provides them with gum massage and benefits to the teeth similar to flossing. Because grass juice is very high in an array of nutrients and enzymes in addition to providing them large trays of fresh grasses I also juice grass and add a small quantity to their wet food. People discount this widespread grass seeking behavior as cats eating grass for “no reason” because it doesn’t need fit into our tidy categories of “obligate carnivores” but I believe their behavior shows they have a true craving and strong instinct to ingest some types of plant matter, in fact I’ve had to remove many plants from my house due to kitties eating them incessantly. I think limiting the types and amounts of veggies in foods makes sense with some things but writing off the inclusion of any plants including grasses to a cats diet can cause nutritional deprivation as well.
 

Azazel

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I trust my cats behavior over peoples theories on cats... all six of my indoor cats act ravenous for grass if they go without it for any period of time, especially oat grass. Some of my cats were formerly outdoor and if they ever get a chance to slip out their first priority is not to make a run for it but to run to the closest grass patch and start chomping away. I sometimes pick grasses for them outside and bring them in to put in small vases for them to chew and they literally follow me around the house up on their hind legs yowling and jumping for the grass as I’m preparing it. One even drools in advance of it. None of them throw up after eating it except one on occasion who has hair all issues will sometimes vomit when she eats too much. I notice they gnaw sturdier blades of grass with their back molars and seem to enjoy this act of gnawing on the blades which makes me think it provides them with gum massage and benefits to the teeth similar to flossing. Because grass juice is very high in an array of nutrients and enzymes in addition to providing them large trays of fresh grasses I also juice grass and add a small quantity to their wet food. People discount this widespread grass seeking behavior as cats eating grass for “no reason” because it doesn’t need fit into our tidy categories of “obligate carnivores” but I believe their behavior shows they have a true craving and strong instinct to ingest some types of plant matter, in fact I’ve had to remove many plants from my house due to kitties eating them incessantly. I think limiting the types and amounts of veggies in foods makes sense with some things but writing off the inclusion of any plants including grasses to a cats diet can cause nutritional deprivation as well.
The scientific fact that cats are carnivores is not a theory. It’s a fact based on the physiology and behaviors of feline species. Why cats chew on plants is up for debate. You are not the first to posit a nutritional explanation for it. I don’t see how or why this explanation is any better than one that posits that there may be no adaptationist explanation for it at all.

I wouldn’t argue that cats should never have any plants in their diet at all. A very minimal amount is fine. My understanding is that cats can’t properly digest plants in raw form so I’m not sure what nutritional benefits a blade of grass would have for them anyway. Maybe it does feel good on their gums. Perhaps the same reason they chew plastic.
 
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