Judge my cat food recipe

Alig224

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Hello,

I've been doing extensive research into making homemade cat food for my 2 year old cat. He's been eating Nulo Freestyle wet food once per day, and Nulo dry food 2x per day, but it is a little pricey. I've been drying to cut back on his dry food without having to buy him more cans (it's about $36 for a 24 pack).

I'm a little confused about the raw vs. cooked debate...isn't all canned cat food basically cooked/preserved anyway? I'm not sure why cooked food from home would be any more dangerous if supplemented correctly. I'm using a supplement powder called Life Extension Cat Mix that includes calcium, taurine, and vitamin Bs.

Here is my first recipe:
2 lbs chicken drumsticks, cooked, bones removed, with chicken broth (costs about $3 for a package)
handful broccolli florets
Life Extension Cat Mix (Advanced Multi Nutrient Formula) 100 Grams Powder
Amazon Link

I pureed the above into a pate and my cat is a big fan. He had some serious dental problems so he had some of his teeth removed, which is why chewing on raw meat or bones is a no-go. I'm curious to know what others think and if this is nutritionally complete. After reading a ton about dental diseases in cats, which is becoming more common, it seems that a bad diet is the number one culprit.

I know I'll get the "ask your vet" comments but my vet is extremely hands off and will probably think I'm crazy for doing this. Keep in mind I don't have kids, only have 1 cat, so this isn't a huge sacrifice for me (and I do think it saves a lot of money).
 
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Canned cat food is cooked under high pressure inside the can so there's little chance of bacteria and stuff in it unlike a cooked diet you make yourself.

The Life Extension mix is only a general daily supplement. It is not meant for use with raw or cooked diets. Look into using a pre-mix specially for raw and cooked diets such as EZComplete and Alnutrin.

The chicken broth isn't necessary. tore bought chicken broth often contains garlic and onions and other things which are not good for cats. Plain water is fine to cook meat with.

Veggies like broccoli are completely useless in a cat's diet.

It's great you want to make your own food for your cat :) It just needs to be done correctly. Here's a TCS thread with info and resources for home cooked diets:

 
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Alig224

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The chicken broth isn't necessary. tore bought chicken broth often contains garlic and onions and other things which are not good for cats. Plain water is fine to cook meat with.

Veggies like broccoli are completely useless in a cat's diet.
That is interesting because most (if not ALL) canned cat foods contain some kind of vegetable and/or "filler" such as potato starch, carrots, pumpkin, random fruits, etc. I added the broccoli as a fiber source and as a filler.

I should have clarified that I did not add store-bought chicken broth, I just used the water which was left in the pot after cooking the chicken legs. I'll definitely investigate EZComplete and Alnutrin.
 

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Your recipe is nutritionally incomplete. It is lacking in calcium, iodine, and Vitamin A (among other nutrients) - all of which will cause severe nutritional deficiencies and ultimately death. There is no point in adding broccolli to a cat's diet besides causing possible digestive upset. Cats are obligate carnivores and cannot digest plant matter properly. Companies add vegetables to food to please humans because humans see vegetables and think it's healthy. It also lowers their costs to use veggies as fillers.

If you want to use cooked chicken and have it be a complete meal then you're better off purchasing a pre-mix supplement that is intended for making meals nutritionally complete (E.g., Ezcomplete, Alnutrition, TCfeline). The supplement mix you are using is just meant to be an "add on" mix but not intended to make a meal nutritionally complete.
 
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Alig224

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The Cat Mix contains Vitamin A 95.5 IU it is listed in the ingredients list. Is this not enough?

Looking at the commercial Nulo wet food, the ingredients lists "Vitamin A Supplement" as well as "Calcium Carbonate" and "D-Calcium Pantothenate".
Link:
FreeStyle minced beef & mackerel recipe in gravy

It seems to me that the canned wet food also just contains supplements mixed into the cooked meat... I doubt they are using raw ground up real bones.

For arguments sake if I'm missing only calcium, what would be a suitable supplement (Other than the Ezcomplete, Alnutrition, TCfeline)? I've read conflicting things about adding bonemeal to cooked homemade diets.
 

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The Cat Mix contains Vitamin A 95.5 IU it is listed in the ingredients list. Is this not enough?

Looking at the commercial Nulo wet food, the ingredients lists "Vitamin A Supplement" as well as "Calcium Carbonate" and "D-Calcium Pantothenate".
Link:
FreeStyle minced beef & mackerel recipe in gravy

It seems to me that the canned wet food also just contains supplements mixed into the cooked meat... I doubt they are using raw ground up real bones.

For arguments sake if I'm missing only calcium, what would be a suitable supplement (Other than the Ezcomplete, Alnutrition, TCfeline)? I've read conflicting things about adding bonemeal to cooked homemade diets.
The minimum recommended amount of Vitamin A intake according to the AAFCO is 3332 IU per kg of food (dry matter basis).

Yes, a lot of canned foods add supplements. The issue is not with using supplements, it's with using the right amounts. Creating a nutritionally balanced diet is a lot more work than just making sure every nutrient is added in. You have to be cautious of under or over supplementing. This is especially true of calcium, as the calcium to phosphorous ratio needs to be within a certain range. Iodine is a non-optional supplement as well. The "add-on" supplement mix you are using is not intended for creating a complete and nutritionally balanced diet. If you want a complete supplement for doing that you need to buy a pre-mix intended for this purpose such as the ones we recommended above.

Or, you need to follow an established recipe such as the one on catinfo.org. I purchase my own supplements online and follow a recipe (not in a pre-mix, I buy separate jars of B-complex, Vitamin E, fish oil capsules, taurine, etc.).
 

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Cat's break down and use protein much more efficiently than they do carbohydrates, but they do get some benefit from vegetables. It's best to steam or chop very fine in a food processor. Even better is mix a small amount of fresh vegetable juice in with a few meals a week. That way nothing needs breaking down and their bodies can use the vitamins and nutrients efficiently.
 

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Cat's break down and use protein much more efficiently than they do carbohydrates, but they do get some benefit from vegetables. It's best to steam or chop very fine in a food processor. Even better is mix a small amount of fresh vegetable juice in with a few meals a week. That way nothing needs breaking down and their bodies can use the vitamins and nutrients efficiently.
What benefits are you referring to that cats get from vegetable juice?
Cats have very little to no need for vegetables. Being that they are obligate carnivores, they cannot properly process plant matter.
 

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What benefits are you referring to that cats get from vegetable juice?
Cats have very little to no need for vegetables. Being that they are obligate carnivores, they cannot properly process plant matter.
Cats that have to hunt to survive consume plant matter from the stomachs of their prey. It’s pre-digested for them and they are able to reap the benefits of the nutrients. Being an obligate carnivore means that cats need a lot of animal meat to survive, but that doesn’t mean that nearly 100% of their diet needs to come from animals to be optimal. I don’t know what the optimal domestic cat diet is, but I know cats benefit from at least some plant based foods. Nutrient dense vegetables steamed or finely chopped break down the food enough to allow adsorption into the cat’s body. Juicing the vegetable is even better for nutrient adsorption. Juicing extracts only the vitamins and minerals from the plant. Additionally vegetables provide fiber that aids in digestion and since vegetables are mostly water it helps with their water needs. High quality cooked grains like millet, with a lot of phosphorus and magnesium, are beneficial to cats too.

Feeding grains to dogs and cats.
 

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Cats that have to hunt to survive consume plant matter from the stomachs of their prey. It’s pre-digested for them and they are able to reap the benefits of the nutrients. Being an obligate carnivore means that cats need a lot of animal meat to survive, but that doesn’t mean that nearly 100% of their diet needs to come from animals to be optimal. I don’t know what the optimal domestic cat diet is, but I know cats benefit from at least some plant based foods. Nutrient dense vegetables steamed or finely chopped break down the food enough to allow adsorption into the cat’s body. Juicing the vegetable is even better for nutrient adsorption. Juicing extracts only the vitamins and minerals from the plant. Additionally vegetables provide fiber that aids in digestion and since vegetables are mostly water it helps with their water needs. High quality cooked grains like millet, with a lot of phosphorus and magnesium, are beneficial to cats too.

Feeding grains to dogs and cats.
The plant matter that cats would eat from the stomach of their prey would be less than 5% of their diet. Have you ever watched a cat eat a mouse? They often tend to leave the stomach contents. Cats use animal fur and bone cartilage for fiber in the wild. They obtain moisture from raw meat. They get all of their nutrients and minerals from meat, organs, and bones. Juicing vegetables is unnecessary and biologically inappropriate.
 
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Alig224

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Cats that have to hunt to survive consume plant matter from the stomachs of their prey. It’s pre-digested for them and they are able to reap the benefits of the nutrients. Being an obligate carnivore means that cats need a lot of animal meat to survive, but that doesn’t mean that nearly 100% of their diet needs to come from animals to be optimal. I don’t know what the optimal domestic cat diet is, but I know cats benefit from at least some plant based foods. Nutrient dense vegetables steamed or finely chopped break down the food enough to allow adsorption into the cat’s body. Juicing the vegetable is even better for nutrient adsorption. Juicing extracts only the vitamins and minerals from the plant. Additionally vegetables provide fiber that aids in digestion and since vegetables are mostly water it helps with their water needs. High quality cooked grains like millet, with a lot of phosphorus and magnesium, are beneficial to cats too.

Feeding grains to dogs and cats.
What vegetables would be best to include in a cat's diet, even in small amounts? I've fed my cat a tiny amount of steamed broccoli mixed in with the homemade food I prepared, and he didn't have any adverse reaction. I've also read that small amounts of leafy greens such as kale are beneficial to include for their vitamins and fiber content.

I would assume that the stomachs of the mice/birds/rodents that cats hunt contain digested grasses, seeds, and insects. Many cats enjoy chewing on "pet grass" (unsure what type of plant it is exactly). So going along these lines of thinking, kale or maybe spinach should be something easily digestible for cats. Thoughts?
 

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The plant matter that cats would eat from the stomach of their prey would be less than 5% of their diet. Have you ever watched a cat eat a mouse? They often tend to leave the stomach contents. Cats use animal fur and bone cartilage for fiber in the wild. They obtain moisture from raw meat. They get all of their nutrients and minerals from meat, organs, and bones. Juicing vegetables is unnecessary and biologically inappropriate.
Richard Pitcairn wrote the bible on holistic cat and dog care and has been treating animals this way since the 70s. He has decades of experience dealing with cat diet issues. Karen Becker, another leading holistic vet, advises adding leafy finely chopped vegetables for fiber if the cat isn't eating prey whole.

Is Your Pet Getting Enough Dietary Fiber?

Furthermore, except for few exceptions a nutrient is a nutrient as far as metabolizing. It doesn't matter whether calcium comes from bone or kale. The cat can use both sources and kale is one of the most nutrient dense foods on the planet. I understand that the vast majority of a cat's diet should come from raw meat though.

Like I said, I don't know what the optimum diet is for domestic cats and if I had to say I'd guess eating freshly killed mice probably is. That's not practical for most cat owners though. There are plenty of raw or partially raw diets that will suffice for cat health and longevity.
 

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What vegetables would be best to include in a cat's diet, even in small amounts? I've fed my cat a tiny amount of steamed broccoli mixed in with the homemade food I prepared, and he didn't have any adverse reaction. I've also read that small amounts of leafy greens such as kale are beneficial to include for their vitamins and fiber content.

I would assume that the stomachs of the mice/birds/rodents that cats hunt contain digested grasses, seeds, and insects. Many cats enjoy chewing on "pet grass" (unsure what type of plant it is exactly). So going along these lines of thinking, kale or maybe spinach should be something easily digestible for cats. Thoughts?
Kale yes, spinach no. Calcium oxalate in spinach can be harmful for certain cats although usually it's okay. Finely chop the kale with a knife or food processor. This will break down the tough cellular walls to make the nutrients more accessible to cats. 1 cup of kale provides for humans 135% of vitamin C, 685% of vitamin K, and important minerals like potassium, calcium and iron. It also provides 140% of vitamin A, but cat's can't use it since it's in beta-carotene form.
 

Petey's Dad

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Pet Recipes

I use the Poultry Delight For Cats and Fatty Feline Fare recipes at the link above as the basis for the food I make. I've used it for years with some of my cats, but stopped 2 years ago. Just started back and will use from now on for all of my cats. Just need to get 2 of my cats on board. I almost always use ground turkey and 2 eggs, always use eggshell powder instead of bone meal, sometimes substitute lard for butter, and use ground sunflower seeds for vitamin E instead of using capsule form. I chop small pieces of beef liver and feed to my cats separately every other day.
 

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Richard Pitcairn wrote the bible on holistic cat and dog care and has been treating animals this way since the 70s. He has decades of experience dealing with cat diet issues. Karen Becker, another leading holistic vet, advises adding leafy finely chopped vegetables for fiber if the cat isn't eating prey whole.

Is Your Pet Getting Enough Dietary Fiber?

Furthermore, except for few exceptions a nutrient is a nutrient as far as metabolizing. It doesn't matter whether calcium comes from bone or kale. The cat can use both sources and kale is one of the most nutrient dense foods on the planet. I understand that the vast majority of a cat's diet should come from raw meat though.

Like I said, I don't know what the optimum diet is for domestic cats and if I had to say I'd guess eating freshly killed mice probably is. That's not practical for most cat owners though. There are plenty of raw or partially raw diets that will suffice for cat health and longevity.
You're making several different claims here... the claim that a little plant matter for soluble fiber might be beneficial and the claim that a cat might eat a very tiny amount of plant matter in their prey's stomach are not equivalent to (and do not justify) the claim that cats should obtain nutrients from juiced veggies.

The link that you posted is actually saying the same thing as what I'm saying. Cats get their fiber from fur and cartilage. I have read the studies on cheetahs that Karen Becker is citing.

Sure, you can use some soluble plant fiber for a cat who doesn't have access to whole prey and needs it - I often give a small teaspoon of plain pumpkin. But, that's a little different than adding juiced vegetables to a diet or claiming that juiced vegetables are necessary in a cat's diet. I realize that there are nutrients that could possibly be used by cats, but the point is that cats do better with processing animal matter, not plant matter. So those nutrients should really be coming from other animals.

You're posting this in a thread where someone is putting together a recipe for their cat in which they are including way too much plant matter that could potentially cause digestive upset. Not to mention, we have no idea how well cats can actually extract nutrients from plants so it's very difficult to claim that a homemade food that uses primarily veggies for nutrients is nutritionally complete. For these reasons, I am concerned that the thread starter will see your post and assume that keeping the veggies in their recipe is a good idea. It is really not.
 

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You're making several different claims here... the claim that a little plant matter for soluble fiber might be beneficial and the claim that a cat might eat a very tiny amount of plant matter in their prey's stomach are not equivalent to (and do not justify) the claim that cats should obtain nutrients from juiced veggies.

The link that you posted is actually saying the same thing as what I'm saying. Cats get their fiber from fur and cartilage. I have read the studies on cheetahs that Karen Becker is citing.

Sure, you can use some soluble plant fiber for a cat who doesn't have access to whole prey and needs it - I often give a small teaspoon of plain pumpkin. But, that's a little different than adding juiced vegetables to a diet or claiming that juiced vegetables are necessary in a cat's diet. I realize that there are nutrients that could possibly be used by cats, but the point is that cats do better with processing animal matter, not plant matter. So those nutrients should really be coming from other animals.

You're posting this in a thread where someone is putting together a recipe for their cat in which they are including way too much plant matter that could potentially cause digestive upset. Not to mention, we have no idea how well cats can actually extract nutrients from plants so it's very difficult to claim that a homemade food that uses primarily veggies for nutrients is nutritionally complete. For these reasons, I am concerned that the thread starter will see your post and assume that keeping the veggies in their recipe is a good idea. It is really not.
Let me simplify it then if you're confused. If the concern is fiber/nutrients then finely chopped is best. If the concern is just nutrients then juicing yields more nutrients for the cat. What I'm advocating with fresh vegetables probably has less than 1% caloric content in a cat's food so I don't understand the absurd misrepresentation of what I've said.

I qualified Becker's comments by saying "if the cat isn't eating prey whole". I'm not sure why you glossed over that part.

Again, it's my opinion that adding a tiny fraction of vegetables is helpful to a cat. How do you get from there to my advice could potentially harm the original poster's cat? Furthermore I added my recipe later in the thread. The recipe is backed up by Dr. Pitcairn who happens to know an thing or two about cat nutrition.
 
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Alig224

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You're making several different claims here... the claim that a little plant matter for soluble fiber might be beneficial and the claim that a cat might eat a very tiny amount of plant matter in their prey's stomach are not equivalent to (and do not justify) the claim that cats should obtain nutrients from juiced veggies.

The link that you posted is actually saying the same thing as what I'm saying. Cats get their fiber from fur and cartilage. I have read the studies on cheetahs that Karen Becker is citing.

Sure, you can use some soluble plant fiber for a cat who doesn't have access to whole prey and needs it - I often give a small teaspoon of plain pumpkin. But, that's a little different than adding juiced vegetables to a diet or claiming that juiced vegetables are necessary in a cat's diet. I realize that there are nutrients that could possibly be used by cats, but the point is that cats do better with processing animal matter, not plant matter. So those nutrients should really be coming from other animals.

You're posting this in a thread where someone is putting together a recipe for their cat in which they are including way too much plant matter that could potentially cause digestive upset. Not to mention, we have no idea how well cats can actually extract nutrients from plants so it's very difficult to claim that a homemade food that uses primarily veggies for nutrients is nutritionally complete. For these reasons, I am concerned that the thread starter will see your post and assume that keeping the veggies in their recipe is a good idea. It is really not.
Just to clarify, I have no intention of feeding my cat homemade food that uses mostly veggies as nutrients. That's why I've been carefully researching supplements or supplement "mixes" to add to the homemade food. I've been tweaking my homemade recipes since I started. Now I'm adding eggshell powder and 1/4 teaspoon wild salmon oil to his meals, in addition to the powder mix I linked in my OP. I did research EZComplete and Alnutrin, but it looks like either their production has stopped or they are awfully pricey. Unfortunately I can't justify a $15 bag of supplement mix per 1lb of meat for the homemade food.

In terms of the amount of plant matter I'm feeding him, similar to what Azazel said about adding a teaspoon of pumpkin mixed in with his pure meat meal, I am also adding about 1/2 teaspoon of vegetables (possibly less) to each serving of his meal. Today I chopped up some arugula and added it as a topper, similar to sprinkling a scant handful of sesame seeds on your (human) noodles. I've given him 100% pumpkin puree (not pie mix) in the past too. I am not a vet and I'm still reading about cat nutrition from the best sources I can find. I do believe that a small amount of plant matter mixed in with a homemade meat diet adds beneficial fiber and nutrients to a cat's diet.

I'm not sure if it's just a coincidence or "seeing what I want to see", but ever since I started feeding my cat homemade recipes, he's been much more energetic and playful, his poop smells way less, and he seems more satisfied after eating, which leads to less dramatic whining and begging around meal time. Over a period of 3 weeks, he's only thrown up one time after giving him turkey. I think the ground turkey had too much fat, who knows, but I didn't feed him any more turkey after that. Now he's back to eating my chicken based recipes (hearts, liver, thighs, or legs).
 

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Let me simplify it then if you're confused. If the concern is fiber/nutrients then finely chopped is best. If the concern is just nutrients then juicing yields more nutrients for the cat. What I'm advocating with fresh vegetables probably has less than 1% caloric content in a cat's food so I don't understand the absurd misrepresentation of what I've said.

I qualified Becker's comments by saying "if the cat isn't eating prey whole". I'm not sure why you glossed over that part.

Again, it's my opinion that adding a tiny fraction of vegetables is helpful to a cat. How do you get from there to my advice could potentially harm the original poster's cat? Furthermore I added my recipe later in the thread. The recipe is backed up by Dr. Pitcairn who happens to know an thing or two about cat nutrition.
Yes I know, you mentioned Dr. Pitcairn 3 times now. Congrats. I’m not confused, but I appreciate your condescending tone. It really helps get your point across.

There is no advantage to using vegetables for nutrients for cats over animal matter. The only reason to do this is if you absolutely do not have access to the nutrients in a more biologically appropriate form.

Most cats get along just fine without any vegetables or plant matter in their diet. Some can use a little soluble fiber to make up for the lack of animal fur and cartilage in their diet.
 

Azazel

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Just to clarify, I have no intention of feeding my cat homemade food that uses mostly veggies as nutrients. That's why I've been carefully researching supplements or supplement "mixes" to add to the homemade food. I've been tweaking my homemade recipes since I started. Now I'm adding eggshell powder and 1/4 teaspoon wild salmon oil to his meals, in addition to the powder mix I linked in my OP. I did research EZComplete and Alnutrin, but it looks like either their production has stopped or they are awfully pricey. Unfortunately I can't justify a $15 bag of supplement mix per 1lb of meat for the homemade food.

In terms of the amount of plant matter I'm feeding him, similar to what Azazel said about adding a teaspoon of pumpkin mixed in with his pure meat meal, I am also adding about 1/2 teaspoon of vegetables (possibly less) to each serving of his meal. Today I chopped up some arugula and added it as a topper, similar to sprinkling a scant handful of sesame seeds on your (human) noodles. I've given him 100% pumpkin puree (not pie mix) in the past too. I am not a vet and I'm still reading about cat nutrition from the best sources I can find. I do believe that a small amount of plant matter mixed in with a homemade meat diet adds beneficial fiber and nutrients to a cat's diet.

I'm not sure if it's just a coincidence or "seeing what I want to see", but ever since I started feeding my cat homemade recipes, he's been much more energetic and playful, his poop smells way less, and he seems more satisfied after eating, which leads to less dramatic whining and begging around meal time. Over a period of 3 weeks, he's only thrown up one time after giving him turkey. I think the ground turkey had too much fat, who knows, but I didn't feed him any more turkey after that. Now he's back to eating my chicken based recipes (hearts, liver, thighs, or legs).
Well, that’s good to hear. The reason why I’m always cautious with advocating veggies is that we get lots of people on here who are adamant that cats need vegetables and go a little overboard with it.

Another important reason why I’m uncomfortable with using veggies for essential nutrients and why I say it’s a last resort is because we really don’t know how much plant matter cats need to eat to be able to benefit from the nutrients the same way they would from eating animal matter. It’s basic biology. Being obligate carnivores, they don’t have the physiology to properly digest plant matter. When I devise my homemade raw food, I use a carefully prepared and analyzed recipe and I’m counting on the fact that my cats can extract all the essential nutrients required from the food. I can’t be confident about that with plants. Using a little pumpkin for soluble fiber is one thing, but counting on plants for essential nutrients is something else.
 
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Unfortunately I can't justify a $15 bag of supplement mix per 1lb of meat for the homemade food
I'm not sure where you saw those prices! Here's a link for Alnutrin, the $14.95 bag makes 16 pounds of food, so that's less than $1 a pound. The $19.95 bag makes 40 pounds, so that's only 50 cents a pound.
Know What You Feed Your Cat - Shop Online

You don't want your cat to end up with nutritional deficiencies. That would be a lot more expensive to fix (if it could even be fixed) than Alnutrin.
 
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