Is my kitty a Ragdoll?

[SchneeSirene]

Hello~ So I’ve been trying to figure out what breed my cat is ever since I got him two years ago. As he matures, I genuinely believe he’s a black ragdoll, but I still have my doubts. He acts like a dog, follows me around, loves being picked up but has a temper. He’s a massive cat, and weighs around I would estimate maybe 10-13 pounds. He’s my best friend, and he’s very curious of new people. We picked him up from a local pet store. I hope these pictures help. Thank you-

 

[Kieka]

Ragdolls are a specific breed of longhair colorpoint cats. Colorpoint meaning that they are impacted by a gene that gives them blue eyes and heat sensitive fur coloration (think the classic siamese). So no, your lovely boy is not a ragdoll. Most cats are not any specific breed or even related to a specific breed. Cats being bred by humans for specifics colors and features is a newer human hobby so we just dont have a lot of cats out there that are specific breeds or related to them. Most cats are simply the wonderful classic domestic shorthair or domestic longhair. Your boy would be a black domestic longhair and lucky to have been adopted into your home.

 

[abyeb]

He is so cute! Ragdoll are colorpointed cats, as Kieka mentioned, so he can’t be a Ragdoll. He is a very handsome black Domestic Longhair.

 

[jefferd18]

You have a cat with a very unique personality.

I researched your question and came up with this:


"This is one of the most controversial subjects in the Ragdoll community – Can Ragdolls Be Black? While we know that Ragdolls can certainly be black, whether or not they are “legitimate” still remains highly debatable. Black Ragdoll cats can exhibit all the breed-specific features, such as the large size, the silky coat texture, and unique personality, but they do not have the traditional Ragdoll points (mask, legs, ears, blue eyes, and tails)."


Apparently, they can be black or any other solid color.

Black Ragdolls Cat { The Most controversial subjects in the Ragdoll community - Can Ragdolls Be Black?}

This is one of the most controversial subjects in the Ragdoll community - Can Ragdolls Be Black? While we know that Ragdolls can certainly be black, whether or not they are "legitimate" still remains highly debatable.

www.floppycats.com

 

[Kieka]

You have a cat with a very unique personality.

I researched your question and came up with this:


"This is one of the most controversial subjects in the Ragdoll community – Can Ragdolls Be Black? While we know that Ragdolls can certainly be black, whether or not they are “legitimate” still remains highly debatable. Black Ragdoll cats can exhibit all the breed-specific features, such as the large size, the silky coat texture, and unique personality, but they do not have the traditional Ragdoll points (mask, legs, ears, blue eyes, and tails)."


Apparently, they can be black or any other solid color.

http://[URL][URL][URL][URL]https://www.floppycats.com/can-ragdolls-be-black.html

[/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]

The key feature of a ragdoll is colorpoint, CFA requires Ragdolls to be pointed as part of their breed standard. Ragamuffins would be solid color. There are a lot of confused people and websites out there. If it is not a recognized breeding confederation then their definition of the breed is not recognized. Genetically speaking it is impossible for a non pointed ragdoll to be born from two pointed ragdoll parents, therefore any non-pointed "ragdoll" would be at best a half bred ragdoll if the parent was an actual pampered ragdoll. I know the article writer asked for actual papers solid ragdolls for their article but I would question if they are actual papers or fakes.

 

[jefferd18]

The key feature of a ragdoll is colorpoint, CFA requires Ragdolls to be pointed as part of their breed standard. Ragamuffins would be solid color. There are a lot of confused people and websites out there. If it is not a recognized breeding confederation then their definition of the breed is not recognized.

There are many websites who are saying the same thing, all I did was enter the question. I do believe that this site did mention that color-point is the key feature and that solid color ragdolls were not recognized. However, that does not mean that they don't exist.

"The controversy lies in the acceptance of black and other solid Ragdolls for official competitions. While more and more breeders are beginning to include solid Ragdolls, showing them in competitions is still not fully supported. According to the International Cat Association (TICA), non-pointed Ragdolls may only be shown as household pets in competitions. At the moment, they do not have official participation rights.

You might be tempted to think that black Ragdolls are not yet accepted because they are new. But, in fact, they have been around since the beginnings of the Ragdoll breed in the 1960s. Even to this day, solid Ragdolls can be sold as breeders. This is the main reason why there are plenty of official Ragdoll breeders who have black or other solid Ragdolls."

 

[Kieka]

There are many websites who are saying the same thing, all I did was enter the question. I do believe that this site did mention that color-point is the key feature and that solid color ragdolls were not recognized. However, that does not mean that they don't exist.

"The controversy lies in the acceptance of black and other solid Ragdolls for official competitions. While more and more breeders are beginning to include solid Ragdolls, showing them in competitions is still not fully supported. According to the International Cat Association (TICA), non-pointed Ragdolls may only be shown as household pets in competitions. At the moment, they do not have official participation rights.

You might be tempted to think that black Ragdolls are not yet accepted because they are new. But, in fact, they have been around since the beginnings of the Ragdoll breed in the 1960s. Even to this day, solid Ragdolls can be sold as breeders. This is the main reason why there are plenty of official Ragdoll breeders who have black or other solid Ragdolls."

I tend to not believe things just because its repeated across many websites. Breed standards are pointed per all the standards I have seen. Since you have hundreds of people out there claiming to have cats of a specific breed it's difficult to know who really does without breed paperwork and as I said that can be faked by someone desiring to up the price of their kittens. Pointed cats get a recessive gene from mom and dad to be pointed. Using a non pointed cat in a breeding program would unshowable and lower profit kittens. It would be a pointless and futile endeavor. All breeds start off as a mix of cats with the desired traits but once a breed standard has been established and it's been recognized as a breed you dont see that as much. Yes, solid cats were used at the start but one you have a pointed car it will always breed true when bred with a pointed cat. The only way a ragdoll cat can give birth to a solid cat is to be bred to a non-ragdoll at this point.

I did do a little looking and all I find are references back to the article you cited. An uncertified breeder and sites selling products and quoting the same site. It's not convincing nor does it provide enough to counter the recognized breed standard. There is a non-pointed version called ragamuffin so solid ragdoll is redundant.

 

[jefferd18]

I tend to not believe things just because its repeated across many websites. Breed standards are pointed per all the standards I have seen. Since you have hundreds of people out there claiming to have cats of a specific breed it's difficult to know who really does without breed paperwork and as I said that can be faked by someone desiring to up the price of their kittens. Pointed cats get a recessive gene from mom and dad to be pointed. Using a non pointed cat in a breeding program would unshowable and lower profit kittens. It would be a pointless and futile endeavor. All breeds start off as a mix of cats with the desired traits but once a breed standard has been established and it's been recognized as a breed you dont see that as much. Yes, solid cats were used at the start but one you have a pointed car it will always breed true when bred with a pointed cat. The only way a ragdoll cat can give birth to a solid cat is to be bred to a non-ragdoll at this point.

I did do a little looking and all I find are references back to the article you cited. An uncertified breeder and sites selling products and quoting the same site. It's not convincing nor does it provide enough to counter the recognized breed standard. There is a non-pointed version called ragamuffin so solid ragdoll is redundant.

I wouldn't know of any site that doesn't sell products or have its own set of vendors- the parrot site that I am on has just that. I honestly don't think it diminishes the credibility of the site.

I agree with you in that there are many unethical breeders who will pass off a cat, for hundreds of dollars, that is not a purebred.

I am less interested in the points (as you state it is impossible to know without papers), and more interested in what the owner has to say about the cat's personality and temperament.

 

[Kieka]

I wouldn't know of any site that doesn't sell products or have its own set of vendors- the parrot site that I am on has just that. I honestly don't think it diminishes the credibility of the site.

I agree with you in that there are many unethical breeders who will pass off a cat, for hundreds of dollars, that is not a purebred.

I am less interested in the points (as you state it is impossible to know without papers), and more interested in what the owner has to say about the cat's personality and temperament.

But the site doesn't have any credibility to begin with. Being cited by other sites doesn't give it credibility that overrides the creditibilty of the organization's that decide what breed standards are. The site being used as reference by others doesn't give it credibility. Credibility comes from actual knowledge, training and knowledgable sources of information; like breed standards from the certified agencies. And to me, a site that blindly makes claims counter to all agreed upon criteria and does so without sources to support their argument has no credibility and is no better then a gossip magazine throwing around conjecture and speculation. It's worse since they dont even acknowledge they might be wrong and have no proof of their claim. The author even said they asked for photos of solid papered cats but didn't show any papers to support their stance. We can come on here an conjecture on what a cat looks like but since you can find nearly any size, color and build imaginable in the general cat population the only thing that actually means the cat is that breed is papers.

As to personality and temperament, I agree it matters in a cat but personality and temperament aren't an indicator of breed. Yes, there are some traits that are seen more often in a breed but that doesn't make it exclusive of the breed or an indicator of breed. It's just means it is something the breeders have tried to encourage in the breed. But you will find cats in every breed who dont fit the stereotype for that breed personality description as well as cats outside the breed who fit the personalities to the letter. So if you mean you are interested because it matters to the owner and their relationship with the cat, agreed. But it doesn't matter as an indicator of breed.

 

[jefferd18]

But the site doesn't have any credibility to begin with. Being cited by other sites doesn't give it credibility that overrides the creditibilty of the organization's that decide what breed standards are. The site being used as reference by others doesn't give it credibility. Credibility comes from actual knowledge, training and knowledgable sources of information; like breed standards from the certified agencies. And to me, a site that blindly makes claims counter to all agreed upon criteria and does so without sources to support their argument has no credibility and is no better then a gossip magazine throwing around conjecture and speculation. It's worse since they dont even acknowledge they might be wrong and have no proof of their claim. The author even said they asked for photos of solid papered cats but didn't show any papers to support their stance. We can come on here an conjecture on what a cat looks like but since you can find nearly any size, color and build imaginable in the general cat population the only thing that actually means the cat is that breed is papers.

As to personality and temperament, I agree it matters in a cat but personality and temperament aren't an indicator of breed. Yes, there are some traits that are seen more often in a breed but that doesn't make it exclusive of the breed or an indicator of breed. It's just means it is something the breeders have tried to encourage in the breed. But you will find cats in every breed who dont fit the stereotype for that breed personality description as well as cats outside the breed who fit the personalities to the letter. So if you mean you are interested because it matters to the owner and their relationship with the cat, agreed. But it doesn't matter as an indicator of breed.

What kind credibility are you seeking? The site itself is showing deference to the TICA.

 

[lutece]

Ok, so let's talk about TICA rules.

The Ragdoll is a pointed breed according to its TICA standard. Two pointed parents can never produce a solid black kitten. A black kitten must have at least one parent that is not pointed, and it must have had at least one non-pointed ancestor in every generation, going all the way back to the non-pointed wild ancestors of all domestic cats. So a black kitten can't just pop up accidentally in a Ragdoll litter.

Some breeds in TICA allow outcrosses to other breeds to be registered, but the Ragdoll is an "established breed" and does not have an authorized outcross. This means you couldn't breed a pointed Ragdoll to a black cat, for example, and register the offspring as a Ragdoll. So you couldn't create a solid black Ragdoll that way.

How could you create a solid black TICA registered "Ragdoll"?

Let's say that you have a registered Ragdoll breeding pair, a male and a female. Your female is in heat, and she mates with your male. The next day, your female Ragdoll escapes from your house for a short time, and mates with your neighbor's tom cat. Two months later, she has a litter with some pointed kittens and a black kitten. You could try to register this litter with TICA, using your Ragdoll male as the sire of the litter. I don't know enough about TICA's computer system to know if it will automatically flag or reject registrations of kittens with genetically impossible colors, but it's possible that TICA's system would allow you to register the black "Ragdoll" kitten, if no one noticed. Once that kitten was registered, you could probably breed it and produce registered "Ragdolls." However, I don't know why anyone would do this.

CFA will not register a non-pointed Ragdoll, and also won't register a Ragdoll with a non-pointed cat in its pedigree.

 

[jefferd18]

"The Ragdoll is a pointed breed according to its TICA standard. Two pointed parents can never produce a solid black kitten. A black kitten must have at least one parent that is not pointed, and it must have had at least one non-pointed ancestor in every generation, going all the way back to the non-pointed wild ancestors of all domestic cats. So a black kitten can't just pop up accidentally in a Ragdoll litter. "

A breeder friend of mine just had a snowshoe Siamese kitten pop up after years of breeding that flaw out.

"Some breeds in TICA allow outcrosses to other breeds to be registered, but the Ragdoll is an "established breed" and does not have an authorized outcross. This means you couldn't breed a pointed Ragdoll to a black cat, for example, and register the offspring as a Ragdoll. So you couldn't create a solid black Ragdoll that way. "

The article didn't say that you could- please read the whole site.

How could you create a solid black TICA registered "Ragdoll"?

Once again, neither me nor the site ever said that you could created a solid black TICA registered Ragdoll.

Let's say that you have a registered Ragdoll breeding pair, a male and a female. Your female is in heat, and she mates with your male. The next day, your female Ragdoll escapes from your house for a short time, and mates with your neighbor's tom cat. Two months later, she has a litter with some pointed kittens and a black kitten. You could try to register this litter with TICA, using your Ragdoll male as the sire of the litter. I don't know enough about TICA's computer system to know if it will automatically flag or reject registrations of kittens with genetically impossible colors, but it's possible that TICA's system would allow you to register the black "Ragdoll" kitten, if no one noticed. Once that kitten was registered, you could probably breed it and produce registered "Ragdolls." However, I don't know why anyone would do this.

Lutece, that is not what the site or myself asserted.



CFA will not register a non-pointed Ragdoll, and also won't register a Ragdoll with a non-pointed cat in its pedigree.

Yes, I know that.

 

[lutece]

A breeder friend of mine just had a snowshoe Siamese kitten pop up after years of breeding that flaw out.

White gloving (such as Birman gloving) is a recessive trait, so it can pop up in a litter. However, solid black is dominant to colorpoint. Solid black simply can't pop up accidentally when breeding pointed cats. At least one of the parents must be non-pointed.

 

[lutece]

"Some breeds in TICA allow outcrosses to other breeds to be registered, but the Ragdoll is an "established breed" and does not have an authorized outcross. This means you couldn't breed a pointed Ragdoll to a black cat, for example, and register the offspring as a Ragdoll. So you couldn't create a solid black Ragdoll that way. "
The article didn't say that you could- please read the whole site.

I did read the whole page that you linked, and I also clicked on the link on that page to Ozland Ragdolls (this link is also in one of your posts above). Ozland Ragdolls states, "Our Non-pointed Ragdolls are registered Purebred Ragdolls under The International Cat Association (TICA). Non-pointed Ragdolls can not be shown in any association except as household pets. Non-pointed Ragdolls are pets only or occasionally sold as a breeder."

Non-pointed Ragdolls

 

[jefferd18]

I did read the whole page that you linked, and I also clicked on the link on that page to Ozland Ragdolls (this link is also in one of your posts above). Ozland Ragdolls states, "Our Non-pointed Ragdolls are registered Purebred Ragdolls under The International Cat Association (TICA). Non-pointed Ragdolls can not be shown in any association except as household pets. Non-pointed Ragdolls are pets only or occasionally sold as a breeder."

Non-pointed Ragdolls

"Ozland Ragdolls states, "Our Non-pointed Ragdolls are registered Purebred Ragdolls under The International Cat Association (TICA). Non-pointed Ragdolls can not be shown in any association except as household pets. Non-pointed Ragdolls are pets only or occasionally sold as a breeder."



Thanks for proving my point.

Also did some researching with Catester, The Ragdoll Cat — All About This Fascinating Cat Breed | Catster Fascinating read.

 

[lutece]

That's why I wrote what I did above about "How could you create a solid black TICA registered 'Ragdoll'?" I was discussing how it might be possible for Ozland cattery to create the "non-pointed TICA registered Ragdolls" that they advertise.

The only way this is genetically possible is if they are intentionally or accidentally using non-pointed cats for breeding (that is, cats that do not meet the breed standard), since a black kitten cannot pop up in a litter from two pointed cats.

I must say that I do not know for sure if TICA will actually register non-pointed Ragdoll cats. It is possible that Ozland cattery might be registering their non-pointed cats as "seal points," etc. (Or maybe they are not registered at all, and it just says that on their web site.) It's hard to know for sure.

 

[jefferd18]

That's why I wrote what I did above about "How could you create a solid black TICA registered 'Ragdoll'?" I was discussing how it might be possible for Ozland cattery to create the "non-pointed TICA registered Ragdolls" that they advertise.

The only way this is genetically possible is if they are intentionally or accidentally using non-pointed cats for breeding (that is, cats that do not meet the breed standard), since a black kitten cannot pop up in a litter from two pointed cats.

I still say it is impossible to say when it comes to genetics what will pop up in the future, and apparently breeders are using black Ragdolls and getting pointed kittens. That site does advertise their black kittens as non-show cats and for household pets only.

This takes us back to the OP's question of whether her all black cat could be a Ragdoll? Evidently, he could very well be.

 

[lutece]

A black cat carrying colorpoint can produce pointed kittens, because colorpoint is recessive. This happens all the time.

Two pointed cats cannot produce black kittens, unless a brand new mutation appears that is recessive to colorpoint and produces a non-pointed (full color) cat.

I actually don't know if such a brand new mutation would be physically possible, because of how the various mutations on the colorpoint (C) locus work. As I understand it, these mutations are forms of semi-albinism and affect the production of tyrosinase, which is the enzyme that allows the cat to produce pigment. Mutations like these appear in many animals. I'm not an expert on genetics, but I seem to remember learning in genetics class that albinism mutations affecting tyrosinase are recessive to full color because you don't need very much tyrosinase to produce pigment, therefore it requires two copies of the mutation to suppress pigment production. So I don't know if it would be physically possible for a full-color mutation to be recessive to colorpoint. But in any case, I can say that there is no such mutation known at this time in the domestic cat.

As far as the question "is the OP's cat a black Ragdoll"?

Sure, there is an extremely teeny tiny chance that the OP might have come across a black cat that came from a very unusual Ragdoll breeding program such as Ozland Ragdolls. This is very, very unlikely, but it is theoretically possible.

 

[jefferd18]

A black cat carrying colorpoint can produce pointed kittens, because colorpoint is recessive. This happens all the time.

Two pointed cats cannot produce black kittens, unless a brand new mutation appears that is recessive to colorpoint and produces a pointed cat.

I actually don't know if such a brand new mutation would be physically possible, because of how the various mutations on the colorpoint (C) locus work. As I understand it, these mutations are forms of semi-albinism and affect the production of tyrosinase, which is the enzyme that allows the cat to produce pigment. Mutations like these appear in many animals. I'm not an expert on genetics, but I seem to remember learning in genetics class that albinism mutations affecting tyrosinase are recessive to full color because you don't need very much tyrosinase to produce pigment, therefore it requires two copies of the mutation to suppress pigment production. So I don't know if it would be physically possible for a full-color mutation to be recessive to colorpoint. But in any case, I can say that there is no such mutation known at this time in the domestic cat.

As far as the question "is the OP's cat a black Ragdoll"?

Sure, there is an extremely teeny tiny chance that the OP might have come across a black cat that came from a very unusual Ragdoll breeding program such as Ozland Ragdolls. This is very, very unlikely, but it is theoretically possible.

I don't know where your fingers take you when operating the computer but mine took me to many articles on black Ragdoll cats. It was a fascinating read that proved to quite educational. When I first researched the topic I did not know about solid colored Ragdolls, but I soon found out some interesting tidbits on the subject such as:

"Black Ragdolls are also referred to as solid Ragdolls, precisely due to the absence of the points on their coats. As a disambiguation, solid Ragdolls, meaning Ragdoll cats of a single color, are not only black. There are also solid Ragdolls that are of other colors specific to the breed, such as white, blue, or lila"

Yes, I also read that to be considered a true Ragdoll the cat must be born white and have blue eyes. However, I don't think the OP was inquiring about true Ragdolls that only cat associations will accept. She just wanted to know if her all black cat could be a Ragdoll and according to what I read, yes, he could be.

 

[lutece]

I searched around a little bit, and that Ozland site looks very old. It was last updated in 2001. It looks like they used to show (pointed) Ragdolls in TICA, but the last time they did that was 1999. I also found one Ragdoll pedigree online that had an Ozland cat in the last generation (a pointed cat), but that cat was born in 2000.

So it looks like Ozland cattery actually existed and bred TICA registered Ragdolls at some time (although the only actual evidence I found was for their pointed Ragdolls), but it's difficult to know if they are in business any more.

But there may be other breeders out there that have (or claim to have) TICA registered non-pointed Ragdolls.