Is my cat a black ragdoll?

[Pkretzu]

My beautiful rescue cat Perry. He just seems to have all the traits of a ragdoll. Large size, goes limp when you pick him up . Any opinions? Thanks!

 

[GoldyCat]

Unfortunately personality traits do not determine breed. Rag dolls have a specific color and pattern requirement which does not include solid black or black and white.

You have a beautiful Domestic Longhair (DLH) kitty.

 

[Pkretzu]

My beautiful rescue cat Perry. He just seems to have all the traits of a ragdoll. Large size, goes limp when you pick him up . Any opinions? Thanks!

 

[Pkretzu]

Unfortunately personality traits do not determine breed. Rag dolls have a specific color and pattern requirement which does not include solid black or black and white.

You have a beautiful Domestic Longhair (DLH) kitty.

 

[Pkretzu]

Black ragdolls aren't cfa recognized, but they exist. Maybe you're correct, but you need to do your research

 

[Kieka]

Ragdoll is a pointed breed. From the breed standard. Ragdoll Breed Standard – The Cat Fanciers' Association, Inc "GENERAL: the Ragdoll is a very laid back cat. The ideal Ragdoll is a well balanced cat with no extreme features. They are a medium to large, moderately longhaired, blue-eyed pointed cat." Pointed being the distinct colorpoint coloration caused by a genetic recessive trait. Since colorpoint is a recessive trait that means a cat must get it from both their parents. A colorpoint cat will carry both recessive copies and will give their kitten the recessive gene. Meaning if two colorpoint breed all their kittens will be colorpoint as well. It is genetically impossible for two purebred ragdolls to produce a non-pointed cat. Making a black ragdoll a genetic impossibility from a purebred Ragdoll breeding.

While I know a Google search will show black ragdolls with examples, Ragdolls simply can't be black and be purebred Ragdolls. Unfortunately, what happens is someone has a cat they self label as Ragdoll after a Google search without any relation to the actual breed. Then they breed their not Ragdoll fluffy pointed cat with another cat. Since that other cat doesn't carry the pointed gene, none of the kittens are pointed but the person then calls the kittens Ragdolls. The kittens now carry the pointed gene they got from the pointed parent, if you breed two of those kittens you will get a pointed kitten in the litter about 50% of the time. The other side of the coin is someone purposefully misleading people about so called solid ragdolls to cash in on the popularity of the ragdoll breed. They perpetuate the myth that a purebred ragdoll can be solid to up the price and desirability of their kittens. Purebred ragdolls as a fraction of the price just without the blue eyes and if you breed the kittens could be pointed, what a deal! But it comes back to breed standard and what is a ragdoll defined as. And that is a colorpointed car with blue eyes and genetically a colorpoint to colorpoint pairing will always bred true, so a solid cat is at best half ragdoll but more likely an assumed ragdoll with no documentation. Bottom line, at best a "solid ragdoll" is half Ragdoll, at worst it isn't even related to an actual ragdoll.

The truth is, cat breeding by humans isn't that old and at a generous guess only about 20% of the cats in the world are within 2 generations of something that would be purebred. Which means most cats in the world have no relation to anything purebred. Most purebred cats are human refinement on natural patterns and colors (and yes even personality) so you can get dead knockoffs for a breed without relation. My girl is a knockoff for Snowshoe Siamese but she is from a feral colony where I saw the 8 generations before her and it just happened that the colorpoint gene was in the colony. So after who knows how many generations of bicolor and tabby, this lovely popped out a carbon copy of Snowshoe with no genetic relation to a true purebred Snowshoe. It happens way more then people realize and I could make a web page about the wonders of Snowshoes with her as the poster child and image claiming she was a purebred one. Someone doing a Google search would run across it and could take her as a true one because I said she was the perfect example. Doesn't make her a Snowshoe and doesn't make it true.

Now, there is the Ragamuffin breed which is similar to the Ragdoll and came out of a dispute about coloration. Ragamuffins were established in 1994 and there are a few breeders of them in the world. Ragamuffins can be black with many similar features to the Ragdoll just without pointed coloring. But to be the cat breed the cat in question has to be documented to show lineage, especially since cats like my girl exist that visually match without relation to the actual bred.

 

[Pkretzu]

Guess people misconstrued my question. I'm not saying I think my cat is a purebred. But I do believe he has the possibility of ragdoll in him. At any rate I'm going to find out what he is because I ordered the basepaws dna kit. FYI they're having a black Friday sale going on, $50 off regular price.

 

[Kieka]

It's a distant possibility. The breed was developed when spay and neuter wasn't as widespread. I live near where they were developed and our feral population tends to have a good amount of colorpoint, although it's too hot for feral longhair to do well. I have a skinny black cat who goes limp when picked up and is very dog like who was also a feral from around here.

 

[Pkretzu]

It's a distant possibility. The breed was developed when spay and neuter wasn't as widespread. I live near where they were developed and our feral population tends to have a good amount of colorpoint, although it's too hot for feral longhair to do well. I have a skinny black cat who goes limp when picked up and is very dog like who was also a feral from around here.

I live in palm springs, and yes not a good environment for longhaired feral population. This is the pic of the day I brought him home. I guess random genes combined to create one beautiful cat, but I freely admit I'm biased

 

[missymotus]

I ordered the basepaws dna kit

don’t waste your money, it’s a scam. They even say right on their website it’s not a breed verification test.

I know many breeders who took part for free with hilarious results.

your boy is a beautiful black & white domestic, there is an extremely slim chance any moggy has a mix of pedigree cat in them, there’s no need to slap breed labels on them, just adore them for what they are.
Going limp and being larger is in no way exclusive to Ragdolls (Birmans actually flop better than any Raggie )

 

[Meowmee]

I researched this in another post a while back- maybe try to search it here in this forum on a response to another question about ragdolls. I found that the original ragdolls bred by Ann Baker were not all pointed and some were solid and black. Josephine the original mother of all rag dolls was an all white dlh blue eyed cat who was angora like who is described as a “feral cat”. Some accounts say Josephine was bred with birman like pointed kitties who were also domestic.

Then I found at some point there was some sort of a dispute between Baker maybe and others who started breeding ragdolls, at first she would not allow anyone to register them except her with cattery apparently. Some were breeding solid ragdolls and others weren’t. One group, maybe the Daytons, decided they should only be pointed, whoever it was it seems to have won out in terms of the cat associations anyway. However I’ve linked 2 rag doll breeders here who say their cats are registered even though only the pointed cats are officially recognized by most cat associations now. You can look at their websites and see what they say, they do have rag-dolls that do not fit the pointed cat standard of the breed etc. and they say some of their cats are related back to Baker‘s original lines as well.

I was told only backyard breeders would breed solid ragdolls or non conforming rag dolls, and they wouldn’t really be rag doll, I’m not sure if that’s true. Certainly there is a major force apparently that has decided that ragdoll’s can only be pointed cats, that may change in time if the others are allowed to be verified and accepted into some subcategory of the breed standard.

As for your kitty, gorgeous baby , when I first looked at him I thought what a beautiful cat, he looks similar to one of my outdoor kitties who showed up at my house about a year and a half ago who I’ve been trying to trap and rescue all of this time- I’m having a very hard time. Zena looked at the time like a Siberian cat/ forest cat. And your cat also reminded me of a forest cat a bit. I will try to do a collage later.

However you can find some similarities between the forest cats and ragdolls although there are many differences as well. Most cats who were rescued are not mixed or pb etc. But there are more than a few look a likes. Many pb cat breeds were started from domestic cats originally and or cats living naturally in the area.

Ragdoll History

desertragdolls.com

The Mysterious Black Ragdoll

 

[Pkretzu]

Thank you, other people came down a little harsh on me for my post. I fully understand he's not a purebred. I just thought he might be a mix with ragdoll in him. Other people have said like you maybe part Norwegian forest cat.

 

[jennyhamblin]

Your cat is adorable , probably could be part ragdoll or ragmuffin . He's so pretty
My black cat Felix also is my only cat out of 5 who goes limp in my arms when picked up.

 

[Lazy Orange House Cat]

Your cat is gorgeous. Be gad he's a DLH and not a purebred.

 

[Meowmee]

Thank you, other people came down a little harsh on me for my post. I fully understand he's not a purebred. I just thought he might be a mix with ragdoll in him. Other people have said like you maybe part Norwegian forest cat.

On an online forum there is no way for people to know with certainty the background of a kitty, and also no way to know for sure for anyone with a rescued/ outdoor cat etc. although some cats are so obviously pb or exact look a likes. I think most come here knowing their kitty is not a pb, but they mostly get the same answers although some do not

UC Davis Veterinary Genetics Laboratory has many tests including one for ancestry but it states it won’t tell you a specific breed. I am not sure how accurate any of them are although people say they did the basepaws and it was wrong on both pb and domestic kitties. I can say that my brother did a people dna health test for heritage and medical issues and it was completely accurate for the heritage-it was exactly what we know our background is.

 

[Kieka]

On an online forum there is no way for people to know with certainty the background of a kitty, and also no way to know for sure for anyone with a rescued/ outdoor cat etc. although some cats are so obviously pb or exact look a likes. I think most come here knowing their kitty is not a pb, but they mostly get the same answers although some do not

UC Davis Veterinary Genetics Laboratory has many tests including one for ancestry but it states it won’t tell you a specific breed. I am not sure how accurate any of them are although people say they did the basepaws and it was wrong on both pb and domestic kitties. I can say that my brother did a people dna health test for heritage and medical issues and it was completely accurate for the heritage-it was exactly what we know our background is.

UC Davis testing is true testing. They can't tell you breed because the pool of purebred isn't that big. Basepaws is a gimmick, it relies on self identified breed and people are wrong more times than not. Genetically, humans spent thousands of years in isolated centers developing slight genetic variances. Even in that though,, people misidentified where the families were from has had an impact on human genetic test results. Which is why every now and then the results adjust slightly as human heritage tests get more respondents and more data to use. Cats have been selectively bred for a few hundred years only and there just aren't that many genetic differences (yet) from purebred and general population. What differences there are are more related to geographic isolation rather than purebred lines.. Along with the whole relying on unreliable narrators to self identify their cats breed.

 

[Maurey]

UC Davis testing is true testing. They can't tell you breed because the pool of purebred isn't that big. Basepaws is a gimmick, it relies on self identified breed and people are wrong more times than not. Genetically, humans spent thousands of years in isolated centers developing slight genetic variances. Even in that though,, people misidentified where the families were from has had an impact on human genetic test results. Which is why every now and then the results adjust slightly as human heritage tests get more respondents and more data to use. Cats have been selectively bred for a few hundred years only and there just aren't that many genetic differences (yet) from purebred and general population. What differences there are are more related to geographic isolation rather than purebred lines.. Along with the whole relying on unreliable narrators to self identify their cats breed.

To add on, Basepaws testing quality is extremely poor (according to most breeders I know), in general, with concerning frequency of false positives/negatives and a history of not understanding issues they offer testing on.

Column: This L.A. company has a 'microbiome' test for your cat's teeth. Does it work?

Basepaws, a Los Angeles company, has introduced a genetic test it says can improve feline dental care. Not all experts are convinced it works.

www.latimes.com

 

[cataholic07]

To add on, Basepaws testing quality is extremely poor (according to most breeders I know), in general, with concerning frequency of false positives/negatives and a history of not understanding issues they offer testing on.

Column: This L.A. company has a 'microbiome' test for your cat's teeth. Does it work?

Basepaws, a Los Angeles company, has introduced a genetic test it says can improve feline dental care. Not all experts are convinced it works.

www.latimes.com

I had Jethro's base paws test done and they even sent me a free dental report that showed he was high for periodontal disease. Which was true. He had stage 2 periodontal disease when his teeth were cleaned. And he had a dental cleaning in April and he still has dental issues and that's with daily teeth brushing. I did it mostly for the health markers and for kicks. They did massive health and genetic update which is cool. I think if you have the funds and don't take the breeds too seriously it's a fun thing to do. Jethro is a part of their CKD study to try and help figure out why some cats get CKD. Sometimes its age, but Jethro was diagnosed at age 2 so it's not with him and no pkd/amyloids.

 

[Flybynight]

P Pkretzu
Just want to say he is gorgeous and he reminds me of Russian cats who Siberian cats were developed from.
Maybe some California long haired cats originated from cats Russian explorers brought. Maybe even the feral cats Ragdolls were bred from.