Is canned food with any kind fish oil bad for cats with FLUTD?

[cheeser]

I'm confused. :-)

I've read that it's a bad idea to give cats with FLUTD any kind of fish product.  And I've also read that fish oil and fish broth are okay, it's the meat part that's the problem.  Which is correct?

Buddy has recently had another setback, and I'm trying to figure out if I need to make any further changes to his diet.

 

[LTS3]

This may help: http://catinfo.org/?link=urinarytracthealth

When considering water versus phosphorus content, as noted above, the water issue is the most important but if you are really worried about crystals (even though they are not an abnormal finding in cat urine as discussed below), pick a diet that is low in phosphorous.

Phosphorus is a general indicator of the calcium and magnesium load of the diet.  If a diet is low in phosphorus, chances are it is also fairly low in calcium and magnesium since all of those minerals are high in bone material and if a diet is low in phosphorus, it is probably low in bone matter.

Note that fish tends to be high in phosphorus because fish comes with its own bones so stay away from fish.

Fish in general shouldn't be fed to cats often for a variety of reasons Fish is pretty low in protein. Many cats get addicted to eating fish and seafood and may refuse to eat anything else. Fish tends to be high in phosphorus which isn't necessarily a concern unless the cat has kidney issues (phosphorus is hard on the kidneys).

Fish oil is good for cats beause of the omega 3s. Raw feeders often include a fish oil supplement in the recipie.

What are you feeding? If you're not already feeding some canned, adding canned food to the diet can help. More water in the diet helps keep the urinary system working at optimal levels. A low phosphorus food may be needed, as Dr. Lisa suggests above. Some cats gets urinary issues from stress. Try to keep stress low and use Feliway if needed. Some people add in a urinary acidifier if the cat's urine pH is too high. I think a vet would need to ttake a urine sample to determine the ph level.

 

[cheeser]

 
This may help: http://catinfo.org/?link=urinarytracthealth

When considering water versus phosphorus content, as noted above, the water issue is the most important but if you are really worried about crystals (even though they are not an abnormal finding in cat urine as discussed below), pick a diet that is low in phosphorous.

Phosphorus is a general indicator of the calcium and magnesium load of the diet.  If a diet is low in phosphorus, chances are it is also fairly low in calcium and magnesium since all of those minerals are high in bone material and if a diet is low in phosphorus, it is probably low in bone matter.

Note that fish tends to be high in phosphorus because fish comes with its own bones so stay away from fish.

Fish in general shouldn't be fed to cats often for a variety of reasons Fish is pretty low in protein. Many cats get addicted to eating fish and seafood and may refuse to eat anything else. Fish tends to be high in phosphorus which isn't necessarily a concern unless the cat has kidney issues (phosphorus is hard on the kidneys).

Fish oil is good for cats beause of the omega 3s. Raw feeders often include a fish oil supplement in the recipie.

What are you feeding? If you're not already feeding some canned, adding canned food to the diet can help. More water in the diet helps keep the urinary system working at optimal levels. A low phosphorus food may be needed, as Dr. Lisa suggests above. Some cats gets urinary issues from stress. Try to keep stress low and use Feliway if needed. Some people add in a urinary acidifier if the cat's urine pH is too high. I think a vet would need to ttake a urine sample to determine the ph level.

Thanks bunches for your most helpful response!  It's very much appreciated. :-)

Buddy also has FIV, FHV, and frequent URIs, and his sense of smell was already pretty much shot when we took him in a couple of years ago.  So we had been feeding him fish flavored canned food since that was all he seemed to be able to smell (and would actually eat), and some Temptations.

But when he was diagnosed with FLUTD a few months ago, we immediately started trying to transition him over to some non-fish flavors.  It took awhile to get him to accept anything except fishy foods and his beloved Temptation snacks, but we finally got there.  Now he loves the chicken based flavors from Weruva, Cats in the Kitchen, Tiki Cat, Fussie Cat, and Wellness (mostly the Divine Duos and Signature Selects) -- and I'm always on the lookout for new things to try that would be suitable for his needs.

Unfortunately, he had another setback last week.  So we didn't know if we needed to eliminate some of the flavors from his diet that contained a little bit of fish oil, or if maybe he simply hadn't been on the new diet long enough for it to have helped.  Thus, my post -- and my appreciation for your response. :-)

Or maybe the new diet is working just fine, and something else triggered this latest episode -- like stress, as you mentioned.  He's extremely terrified of thunderstorms, and we had them almost every day for a couple of weeks.  So just to be on the safe side, we've put in two more electrical outlets so we can plug in the Feliway diffusers closer to where he spends most of his time, started spritzing his favorite hidey-holes with Feliway every time we're expecting bad weather, and the vet just started him on Zylkene the other day.  Hopefully that will work to help manage Buddy's stress.  So far the anti-anxiety meds have created more problems than they've solved. :/

Thanks again!

 

[puck]

Fish oil contains omega 3 fatty acids, essential fatty acids that cats don't make themselves, and need from their diet. Specifically, EPA and DHA in the oil aids in cellular regeneration, anti-inflammation, and as a result at lower potency helps the skin, a constantly cell-replacing organ, and higher potency helps joints, heart, bladder, kidneys, GI system, and brain.

Adding moisture to help alleviate excessively concentrated urine will help more with the "sludge" and limit crystal formation more than ensuring he has no fish protein.

Per gram, fish has higher protein than any poultry, ruminant, or rabbit/rodent. Knowing this, they don't need as much volume. Adding a little psyllium husk can help them feel fuller, aids satiety, as well as bind excessive dietary protein, as it acts as a "prebiotic" which is just a fancy word for fiber.

You don't need to eliminate fish from the diet, especially for a kitty prone to respiratory infections, who already has compromised or reduced immunity thanks to retroviral flare ups.

Adding 1.5mL of Welactin (regular, non-feline loose oil) to his diet can help with satiety, increase his omega 3 fatty acid intake, and improve overall organ function and health.

Supporting him with B Complex vitamins and iron can also help, as a cat with poor immunity is prone to infections that B vitamins can help boost WBCs, and some infectious disease and parasites that cause anemia. Adding Lixotinic or PetTinic daily to food can also make it tastier, as it's flavored, and boost these helpful dietary supplements.

L-lysine comes in a tasty flavored paste called Viralys that can make medicating with that essential amino acid easier as well, since it limits herpesvirus replication.

Good question, about the fish vs. fish oil, as that is not an obvious one. Many clients have asked about that one. Message with any other queries you may have about maintaining your boy, as I've treated thousands of male cats with FLUTD, yes thousands, and each of them had a variety of co-disease or co-allergy issues to work into their plan when considering their best course of treatment. For some, the owners were limited physically, financially, or geographically and we tailored their cat's plan to fit them, the owner, as well. We, as in the treatment team, for it takes more than one vet, one nurse, one website, to effectively treat our feline companions.

 

[cheeser]

 
Fish oil contains omega 3 fatty acids, essential fatty acids that cats don't make themselves, and need from their diet. Specifically, EPA and DHA in the oil aids in cellular regeneration, anti-inflammation, and as a result at lower potency helps the skin, a constantly cell-replacing organ, and higher potency helps joints, heart, bladder, kidneys, GI system, and brain.

Adding moisture to help alleviate excessively concentrated urine will help more with the "sludge" and limit crystal formation more than ensuring he has no fish protein.

Per gram, fish has higher protein than any poultry, ruminant, or rabbit/rodent. Knowing this, they don't need as much volume. Adding a little psyllium husk can help them feel fuller, aids satiety, as well as bind excessive dietary protein, as it acts as a "prebiotic" which is just a fancy word for fiber.

You don't need to eliminate fish from the diet, especially for a kitty prone to respiratory infections, who already has compromised or reduced immunity thanks to retroviral flare ups.

Adding 1.5mL of Welactin (regular, non-feline loose oil) to his diet can help with satiety, increase his omega 3 fatty acid intake, and improve overall organ function and health.

Supporting him with B Complex vitamins and iron can also help, as a cat with poor immunity is prone to infections that B vitamins can help boost WBCs, and some infectious disease and parasites that cause anemia. Adding Lixotinic or PetTinic daily to food can also make it tastier, as it's flavored, and boost these helpful dietary supplements.

L-lysine comes in a tasty flavored paste called Viralys that can make medicating with that essential amino acid easier as well, since it limits herpesvirus replication.

Good question, about the fish vs. fish oil, as that is not an obvious one. Many clients have asked about that one. Message with any other queries you may have about maintaining your boy, as I've treated thousands of male cats with FLUTD, yes thousands, and each of them had a variety of co-disease or co-allergy issues to work into their plan when considering their best course of treatment. For some, the owners were limited physically, financially, or geographically and we tailored their cat's plan to fit them, the owner, as well. We, as in the treatment team, for it takes more than one vet, one nurse, one website, to effectively treat our feline companions.

Awesome!!!

Thanks so very, VERY much for all of the info.  We're trying to do the best we can for Buddy, but sometimes our good intentions go a little awry, and we have to keep going back to the proverbial drawing board. :-)

Just have a quick question.  When you mentioned adding 1.5mL of Welactin to his food, is that per day?  Buddy eats three times a day, and since one of his meals already includes fish oil as an ingredient, I don't want to accidentally overdo a good thing. ;-)

 

[puck]

 
Awesome!!!

Thanks so very, VERY much for all of the info.  We're trying to do the best we can for Buddy, but sometimes our good intentions go a little awry, and we have to keep going back to the proverbial drawing board. :-)

Just have a quick question.  When you mentioned adding 1.5mL of Welactin to his food, is that per day?  Buddy eats three times a day, and since one of his meals already includes fish oil as an ingredient, I don't want to accidentally overdo a good thing. ;-)

Yes, that is per day. If he already gets 100-200mg of EPA total per day, as this is our benchmark omega 3 fatty acid for effective dosing without overdosing, he doesn't need the Welactin as you already give omega 3's in his current fish oil. If an ingredient in his manufactured cat food, these are usually minimal volumes, inconsequential to his daily requirement for joint, cardiac, uurinary, GI, and CNS wellness.

Gets go back to the drawing board, too; it's the only way we ever find new, effective modalities and treatments!

 

[lcat4]

For reference, my cat had cystitis for many years and eventually he was diagnosed with bladder cancer.  Clearly he had bladder issues beyond most FLUTD cats, as that cancer is very rare in cats. 

Since some of this discussion is focusing on fish oil, and the appropriate Omega-3/Omega-6 essential oil ratio, I'd like to comment on your food list.  First, Omega-6 oils tend to be more inflammatory, Omega-3 tend to be anti-inflammatory, so the goal is to have a more neutral ratio between the two types of oils.  Most of the foods that you are feeding use Sunflower Seed Oil as a base fat.  Sunflower Seed Oil is easy to use because it is readily available and cheap, but it is also very high in Omega-6, thus the oil is highly skewed to the inflammatory side of things. 

I'm not saying the food is bad, I think the meat content is great and my cats have enjoyed it when I gave it to them.  I just want to make you aware of what seems to be included in almost all of your foods.  Perhaps introducing another wet food that is not as high in Omega 6, to balance out their nutritional intake, or consider adding the fish oil to counter the seed oil...

I do not believe that diet is solely responsible for so many male cats having FLUTD issues.  My cat's brother ate bite for bite what the one cat ate, and he has never even thought about having a bladder problem.  But I strive to feed a diet as low in inflammatory properties as I can.  As you are looking for assistance with your cat's FLUTD, I just wanted to make you aware, for further consideration. 

 

[cheeser]

 
Yes, that is per day. If he already gets 100-200mg of EPA total per day, as this is our benchmark omega 3 fatty acid for effective dosing without overdosing, he doesn't need the Welactin as you already give omega 3's in his current fish oil. If an ingredient in his manufactured cat food, these are usually minimal volumes, inconsequential to his daily requirement for joint, cardiac, uurinary, GI, and CNS wellness.

Gets go back to the drawing board, too; it's the only way we ever find new, effective modalities and treatments!

Cool!  Thanks. :-)

 

[cheeser]

 
For reference, my cat had cystitis for many years and eventually he was diagnosed with bladder cancer.  Clearly he had bladder issues beyond most FLUTD cats, as that cancer is very rare in cats. 

Since some of this discussion is focusing on fish oil, and the appropriate Omega-3/Omega-6 essential oil ratio, I'd like to comment on your food list.  First, Omega-6 oils tend to be more inflammatory, Omega-3 tend to be anti-inflammatory, so the goal is to have a more neutral ratio between the two types of oils.  Most of the foods that you are feeding use Sunflower Seed Oil as a base fat.  Sunflower Seed Oil is easy to use because it is readily available and cheap, but it is also very high in Omega-6, thus the oil is highly skewed to the inflammatory side of things. 

I'm not saying the food is bad, I think the meat content is great and my cats have enjoyed it when I gave it to them.  I just want to make you aware of what seems to be included in almost all of your foods.  Perhaps introducing another wet food that is not as high in Omega 6, to balance out their nutritional intake, or consider adding the fish oil to counter the seed oil...

I do not believe that diet is solely responsible for so many male cats having FLUTD issues.  My cat's brother ate bite for bite what the one cat ate, and he has never even thought about having a bladder problem.  But I strive to feed a diet as low in inflammatory properties as I can.  As you are looking for assistance with your cat's FLUTD, I just wanted to make you aware, for further consideration. 

Oy vey!  I do seem to keep jumping out of the proverbial frying pan and into the fire, huh? ;-)

If you don't mind me asking, what do you feed your kitties that's lower in inflammatory properties?  And are there any other ingredients I might want to avoid, or at least be aware of?

To be perfectly honest, we're not really sure what's contributing to Buddy's urinary tract issues.  So we're just trying to cover as many bases as we can, and hope that one of these days we can accidentally stumble across the right combination of diet, stress management, and whatever else will work to help to keep him as healthy as we can, all things considered. :-)

Thanks much for sharing your experiences, and all of the helpful info.  I very much appreciate it!

 

[lcat4]

Like I said, I'm not convinced that diet is the end all with this problem, but like you, I try to get the right combo of everything for the benefit of my cats.  Their food options certainly got better over the years as we tried to get rid of all the grains, then lowered carbs...but my cat kept blocking anyway.  Again, to point out, he was the only one of the bunch that had/has this problem.  I was feeding basically what you are feeding, but three years ago, when he was diagnosed with cancer, I switched to a mostly home-prepared diet - both raw and cooked meats mixed with supplements and water.  The cancer progressed, but he did not block again.  Disclaimer, he also had surgery that extended his urethra into his bladder beyond the mass, so I'm sure that helped the blocking problem as well.

I am very happy to do the home-prepped method of feeding my cats: I know they are getting good quality meat, there aren't extras in the food, and my cats are happy to eat.  For variety, I also feed a couple canned foods a week - three of the ZiwiPeak recipes - some people have a hard time with the agar-agar that is in the food, and Life's Abundance Instinct (online only) that includes chicken meal - which others have a problem with.  No food is perfect. 

I didn't mean to imply you shouldn't feed those foods, just expand your food options a bit. I'm sure there are lots of foods that don't include the sunflower oil.  It sounds like your cat likes the shredded meat with liquid foods, since that's what all those are, and you have to feed them what they like.  My cooked meats with supplement actually resemble that style.  The canned foods I use are pate style. 

Sorry I can't be more help.  If I knew, none of us would have these problems.  Best!

 

[cheeser]

 
Like I said, I'm not convinced that diet is the end all with this problem, but like you, I try to get the right combo of everything for the benefit of my cats.  Their food options certainly got better over the years as we tried to get rid of all the grains, then lowered carbs...but my cat kept blocking anyway.  Again, to point out, he was the only one of the bunch that had/has this problem.  I was feeding basically what you are feeding, but three years ago, when he was diagnosed with cancer, I switched to a mostly home-prepared diet - both raw and cooked meats mixed with supplements and water.  The cancer progressed, but he did not block again.  Disclaimer, he also had surgery that extended his urethra into his bladder beyond the mass, so I'm sure that helped the blocking problem as well.

I am very happy to do the home-prepped method of feeding my cats: I know they are getting good quality meat, there aren't extras in the food, and my cats are happy to eat.  For variety, I also feed a couple canned foods a week - three of the ZiwiPeak recipes - some people have a hard time with the agar-agar that is in the food, and Life's Abundance Instinct (online only) that includes chicken meal - which others have a problem with.  No food is perfect. 

I didn't mean to imply you shouldn't feed those foods, just expand your food options a bit. I'm sure there are lots of foods that don't include the sunflower oil.  It sounds like your cat likes the shredded meat with liquid foods, since that's what all those are, and you have to feed them what they like.  My cooked meats with supplement actually resemble that style.  The canned foods I use are pate style. 

Sorry I can't be more help.  If I knew, none of us would have these problems.  Best!

The more I learn about what's in commercially prepared cat food, the more tempted I am to make my own.  Maybe some day, when I can work up the nerve, and have done some more research so I can make sure I do it right.

It would be nice if there were a nutritionally perfect cat food you could buy, that our kitties would absolutely love and adore, and for a very reasonable price, of course.  But as you say, no food is perfect, and we just do the best we can, being mere humans and all. ;-)

Thanks oodles for all your help!  We'll definitely look into some more options, and hopefully we can provide enough variety in his diet so that some shortcomings in one food might be offset by another. :-)