Introduction - two kittens

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I totally agree with post #19 from She's a witch She's a witch .
I've let them more and more, they seem to be improving but I have some specific questions:
- on the sucker punch like incidents; should I intervene?
- is the staring of loki something I should interrupt?
No, do not intervene...since you would only be stopping their play-time.
Kittens need this play, to burn off energy, learn to socialize with each other, and learn to become best friends.

The 'sucker punch' did seem to come out of no where, but it was total play.
As long as Thor goes back, then it's all cat fun.
Staring from kittens is okay, too. They are just learning, playing, and observing.

Maybe just trim the tips of both kittens' claws/nails, ....so as Loki does not scratch Thor too much, and Thor also.
(remember to not get too close to the 'quick' part of a cat's claw, it looks kind of pinkish.
There are some good videos online, which show how to trim a kitten's claws/nails.)
I am trying to let them sort it out, but all they do is swat at eachother and chase (mostly Loki chasing the little one, jumping on his back and then jumping scared from him). Sometimes the little one chasing loki with wiggly but motion and everything and then charging at loki just to get swatted. Little to no laying around, just a couple of bites to eat and absolutely no pooping while the other is around.
If the one kitten is bothering the other one while he is trying to poop, ...then you could put the one who is doing the bothering into another room, until the other one finishes.
Or if you could just pick up the kitten, who is jumping on the one in the litter box, and gently tell him "no", then carry him away.

The 'swat, swat, swat' video....looks like Thor has the upper hand (paw), in that he makes Loki move back.
It's nice to see that both kittens take turns in who is being the 'leader'.

That last video...."Can't touch this (ta na nana)"....looked like Thor wanted to touch Loki's tail, but Loki's back paws got in the way.:crackup::lol:
Did Loki have anything funny on his back paws....like catnip, or walked through cat food, or anything? Tuna?
So interesting how Thor did not back down, at first, in that video...then later he walks away.

Both your kittens must be very fun to watch. Better than television. :biggrin:
 

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Oh yes, I forgot to address the pooping situation: when mine were kittens, my girl would have no respect and “attack” my boy when he was pooping, peeing and eating. I let them solve this themselves and she stopped that, that was just the phase (followed by synchronized pooping phase). Now they have a total respect and deal that playing when one is in the litter box/eats is out of question. I think she was doing it out of excitement that she finally has a proper “toy” to play, plus he wasn’t moving when he was busy with this stuff and it was easier for her to pounce on him. It stopped after few weeks of them being together, I think when she learned that “toy” is available all the time. So hopefully when you let them be together without separation, that will stop too.
 
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Oh yes, I forgot to address the pooping situation: when mine were kittens, my girl would have no respect and “attack” my boy when he was pooping, peeing and eating. I let them solve this themselves and she stopped that, that was just the phase (followed by synchronized pooping phase). Now they have a total respect and deal that playing when one is in the litter box/eats is out of question. I think she was doing it out of excitement that she finally has a proper “toy” to play, plus he wasn’t moving when he was busy with this stuff and it was easier for her to pounce on her. It stopped after few weeks of them being together, I think when she learned that “toy” is available all the time. So hopefully when you let them be together without separation, that will stop too.
Thanks for these tips and the reassurance!

On eating it was funny as Thor moved on Loki's plate. Loki backed away, Thor took two licks and returned to his own plate. Then after 2-3 bites Loki returned the "favour" to Thor. Same challenge, one lick, returned to his own plate.

They were both orphans at 1 month, so you must be right about them learning how to cat with one another.
 
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Sorry to revive an older thread, but I am reaching back to you for some advice on a related situation.

Sooo... in the meantime Loki has been neutered and his little "brother" will follow in the upcoming weeks. There have been 3 weeks since his neutering so am I am fully aware that not all testosterone has left the building. :)
I've let them together for multiple days, they are eating side by side, bumping noses, sleeping close to each other. Chasing and swatting each other as play until they get tired. It is really funny to see them play.

BUT ... there is a problem (or so I perceive it). Sometimes after a few minutes of playtime and chasing each other around the house, Loki goes into a "Target Aquired" state. I can see it a bit in advance as he starts running after the little one at full speed and after 1-2 runs, pins him down and jumps on him (something like wrestling) with some "fake" bites. The little one is hissing at him and spits and eventually runs under a cabinet / coffee table. Loki doesn't seem to get the hissing part and just goes on. The little one stays a while under the cabinet, then comes out running. But Loki is still "target aquired" mode and eyes locked at him and follows him at fulls speed, pins him down again, wrestle ...back under the cabinet. (you get the sequence of events)
Sometimes a bit of fur was flying around as they get into a "ying-yang" ball and wrestle. From the looks of it, Loki is winning. I try to distract them, it works for a second and they separate for around a body length, but then Loki goes back into hunting mode. I feel it is a problem as the little one doesn't chase Loki back. I always separated them after the ball stance and hissing started from the little one. He even hisses on me when I pick him up.

And now the questions:
1. is this rough play (it sure looks like it)? they were both orphans taken from the street at ~1 month old, so I assume little to none socials skills with cats or playing with litter mates.
2. should I intervene? Is there a risk of injury? (no blood or visible scratches ... but I am afraid of a bite from Loki to his little brother)
3. as they are eating and sleeping near each-other and also if they are separated they cry for each others interaction and play under the door ... I assume this is not introduction related? I assume if they didn't liked it each other they wouldn't tolerate interaction at all ?
4. No other hissing, no Halloween cat stances, no growling ...

I am confused ... and worried if I am not around and they go into this mode. :(
Would appreciate any advice.

Edited for a nice photo of the two sitting at the window:
received_640054250107155.jpeg
 
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And now the questions:
1. is this rough play (it sure looks like it)? they were both orphans taken from the street at ~1 month old, so I assume little to none socials skills with cats or playing with litter mates.
2. should I intervene? Is there a risk of injury? (no blood or visible scratches ... but I am afraid of a bite from Loki to his little brother)
3. as they are eating and sleeping near each-other and also if they are separated they cry for each others interaction and play under the door ... I assume this is not introduction related? I assume if they didn't liked it each other they wouldn't tolerate interaction at all ?
4. No other hissing, no Halloween cat stances, no growling ...

I am confused ... and worried if I am not around and they go into this mode. :(
Would appreciate any advice.

Edited for a nice photo of the two sitting at the window
  1. Yes, it does sound like rough play,...but even with litter mates you may get this type of play, because one kitten or young cat, likes to play rougher than the other, and sometimes one is more vocal than the other. Sometimes you may think that the 'stronger' cat started it, but in reality it was the one who is more 'gentle' looking, so they may take turns in starting or ending some play-fights.
  2. I would only intervene if you feel that Loki is always unfairly making Thor cry. For instance, if you were to step in front of Loki when he goes into the 'target aquired' mode....then this may distract Loki for an instant, and you can also say "hey, hey, hey" or something equivalent, to distract, and also to let Loki know that he should try to play less aggressive. It's hard, though, because this is often how kittens play.
  3. Yes, they definitely know each other, and are only testing to see who is stronger, and totally playing. If they did not like each other, or were full of fear, then one cat would avoid the other.
  4. This is really good, and means that they just like to play very rough.
BUT ... there is a problem (or so I perceive it). Sometimes after a few minutes of playtime and chasing each other around the house, Loki goes into a "Target Aquired" state. I can see it a bit in advance as he starts running after the little one at full speed and after 1-2 runs, pins him down and jumps on him (something like wrestling) with some "fake" bites. The little one is hissing at him and spits and eventually runs under a cabinet / coffee table. Loki doesn't seem to get the hissing part and just goes on. The little one stays a while under the cabinet, then comes out running. But Loki is still "target aquired" mode and eyes locked at him and follows him at fulls speed, pins him down again, wrestle ...back under the cabinet. (you get the sequence of events)
Sometimes a bit of fur was flying around as they get into a "ying-yang" ball and wrestle. From the looks of it, Loki is winning. I try to distract them, it works for a second and they separate for around a body length, but then Loki goes back into hunting mode. I feel it is a problem as the little one doesn't chase Loki back. I always separated them after the ball stance and hissing started from the little one. He even hisses on me when I pick him up.
When Thor grows and gets bigger then the playing will be more even.

If you find that the play-fights are always uneven, then you could distract with a 'piece of cardboard' and block Loki's line-of-sight...or use a towel or pillow,... to block Loki's line-of-sight onto Thor. This may help Loki understand that his playing is too rough.
Usually, though, it is the other cat who will communicate to the play-mate that he has had enough, or that it is too rough.
As long as Thor comes back, then it really was not that bad, but only sounds or looks like it was.

Don't try to pick up any of the cats while they are in play-mode....since they may accidentally and unintentionally scratch or hiss at you. Cats take a while to calm down, and get out of this 'play-mode attitude'.

From your photo, though, remus07 remus07 ....it really looks like your two cats get along, and that they enjoy each other's company.
Sometimes it is hard to get cats to play at equal levels, but as long as they can be so close...as in your photo....then the cats don't really hold any grudges.
Keep trying to teach Loki to play less rough, by intervening with saying 'hey, hey, hey' or using the above distraction techniques, or others that you use, and you'll probably notice a lessening in overly rough play as they get older.

Your photos and videos are really nice to see. :thumbsup:
 
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remus07

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And I am back with another story event, I will put it here in case someone has similar cats and follows this. But first the background. Loki and Thor have been together in the past weeks in the house and at night they have the living room and bathroom. Eating next to each other, both use both litter boxes and sleep in the same cat tree, just different levels. Loki up, Thor middle.

They still chase wrestle and Thor squeeks, no improvement. :( No blood drawn at least, but still not easy to watch as a cat-dad.

But there is the following weird event:
- 2 or 3 times a day, Thor lays around the house(on carpet or couch). Loki comes to him, steps on him litterally and initiates a wrestling ball (seems again fake biting neck or legs). This turns into a ~20 minute chase where Loki tries to wrestle, bite, hug etc Thor. The little one just tries to run away. It ends with Thor retreating in the carrier or an enclosed space.
If I intervene Loki just lays down on one side. But eventually , in a few hours, tries again.

Is this bully behaviour? The little one just sits or tries to nap sometimes. Why does Loki treat him as a toy?

Added a nice photo from this morning. It puzzles me how they can go from this to "wrestle ball, a**hole style play".

Again any advice will be highly appreciated.

IMG_20200426_082507.jpg
 

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The photo is awesome. Thor is really growing fast. :thumbsup:
So beautiful how you can see their heights, and colour markings.
They still chase wrestle and Thor squeeks, no improvement. :( No blood drawn at least, but still not easy to watch as a cat-dad.
When Thor squeeks, does Loki at least seem to stop, for even a second?
If Loki does indeed stop, and listen to the squeek, even for a second, then that would be okay.

Also, if Thor does not hold a grudge, and does not hide all day, ...that would also be good.
Meaning that Thor, even though he is telling Loki, "Squeek= That's too rough, you giant!"...is still okay.
But there is the following weird event:
- 2 or 3 times a day, Thor lays around the house(on carpet or couch).
Loki comes to him, steps on him litterally and initiates a wrestling ball (seems again fake biting neck or legs). This turns into a ~20 minute chase where Loki tries to wrestle, bite, hug etc Thor. The little one just tries to run away. It ends with Thor retreating in the carrier or an enclosed space.
If I intervene
Loki just lays down on one side. But eventually , in a few hours, tries again.

Is this bully behaviour? The little one just sits or tries to nap sometimes. Why does Loki treat him as a toy?

Added a nice photo from this morning. It puzzles me how they can go from this to "wrestle ball, a**hole style play".
I wouldn't really call it bully behaviour, because both Loki and Thor are so young, ...and Loki just seems to really enjoy rough, rough play. Some cats and kittens do have extremely rough Play sessions, which seem to end in rough play fights, ...but then they are okay the next day, ...or even later the same day.

You will often find with cats, ...that one cat is ready to Play, while the other wants to sleep or rest.
This is very common.

(Previous two male cats I had, always seemed to want to Play, while the other one wanted to sleep.
I used to think that the one cat would be the one starting it all the time.
It turned out, that sometimes the other cat would also do the starting, but do it in such a fast and sneaky way, that it was hard to see it.)

"Why does Loki treat him as a toy?"
Because it is so much more fun... to have another cat, who is able to move in unpredictable ways, a challenge, companion, sparring partner, physical trainer, etc, etc.
It's a great workout for a cat.
Expends a lot of energy, feels great, and exercises both the cat's body and mind.

"Added a nice photo from this morning. It puzzles me how they can go from this to "wrestle ball, a**hole style play".
Lol. Yes. I can see how you'd wonder about the "wrestling style of play".
As long as you are still getting these type of photos, and eating together, sleeping near each other,...you are all still good.

As they get older, the Play style might change, ...since cats tend to mellow out with age.
Plus Thor will be bigger and tougher, too.
(Just remember to Play with them individually, as well, so it builds Thor's confidence, and teaches Loki how to Play with different things.)

(Post some of those "wrestling videos" ...when you get a chance. Might help to see how rough they are.) :)
 
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remus07

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Loki stops when Loki wants to stop. Or when I intervene.
It is weird because he does not stop when the little guy squeks. But there are moments when he pauses(probably is tired himself), the little one goes on the couch exactly on "loki's" spot (seems dumb or deliberate) or lays down on a side(the invitation to play position for cats with arms up - again dumb or deliberate). Loki looks for 3-4 seconds at him or comes close ... And all of a sudden jumps on Thor.


And here they go again, squek, evade run under table. All over again.

I really wish I could talk to them and understand what this is. I guess many colleagues on this forum would love to do that with their pets. I am just worried that the little one does not feel stressed ... Or maybe stress is causing this to Loki. Unknown. :)

P.s. I will post a video in a few hours... Will try and find something on the home camera.

P.s.2 I try to play with both and offer attention equally... But it is hard/tiresome sometimes. Especially in this lockdown period...wfh... Ppl expect so much more done. :-< and getting Thor tired... Is like going to the gym... Full workout session. :)) He is an energy freak.

Here is the video (everyone says no blood = no problem ... But those sounds don't seem of joy either):
 
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Here is the video (everyone says no blood = no problem ... But those sounds don't seem of joy either):
The video is great remus07 remus07 . :biggrin:

If you look at the 0:10 mark, ...you notice that Thor is the one with his ears back, and flattened down. This is very smart of him, to protect his ears, from any paw hits, ..and does not mean he is upset. Thor is playing, and acting very smart.
He looks up at Loki, wanting to play-fight with him.

Also if you notice at the 0:35 mark, both cats are laying down, still play-fighting, but enjoying the give-and-take.
At the 0:52 mark, Loki does probably bite Thor a little too hard, but Thor hisses and makes that loud sound...and Loki stops.
Seeing Loki stop like that is really good. (meaning he respects Thor.) :cool2:

Yes, Loki does seem a bit too rough, after this point, by wrestling, pushing, or biting Thor...but it is still definitely Play-wrestling, because Loki always stops, then starts again. Loki actually stops many times, and changes position.

At the 1:20 mark, it's Thor that takes a 'right pawed jab' at Loki.
Thor also later, sneaks around the side of the sofa, and looks to be looking for Loki...again...wanting to play.

The cat body language in the video is very good, and very good cat postures.
Loki stops when Loki wants to stop. Or when I intervene.
It is weird because he does not stop when the little guy squeks. But there are moments when he pauses(probably is tired himself), the little one goes on the couch exactly on "loki's" spot (seems dumb or deliberate) or lays down on a side(the invitation to play position for cats with arms up - again dumb or deliberate). Loki looks for 3-4 seconds at him or comes close ... And all of a sudden jumps on Thor.

And here they go again, squek, evade run under table. All over again.
Yes, I hear what you are saying, and with your video...I see it.
But Loki does stop when Thor squeeks. :thumbsup:
Loki does jump directly onto Thor, but he does so with two legs on Thor, and the rest are around him.
You are entirely right, ...that it is Thor who has the "invitation to play position"...inviting Loki to play-fight. :)

I don't think it's dumb,...since the 'ground position' is easier to defend from...and there are all four paws and claws sticking out,...plus the mouth-teeth...so strategically it's harder to get a hold of the cat on the ground.
And yes, it's deliberate.
I really wish I could talk to them and understand what this is. I guess many colleagues on this forum would love to do that with their pets. I am just worried that the little one does not feel stressed ... Or maybe stress is causing this to Loki. Unknown. :)
So true. Many of us would love to sit down with our cats, and have a discussion where 'they explain, exactly why they are chasing, wrestling, making the other cat squeek or hiss, and why they cannot play more gentler, or quietly.'
(I know I ask my 5 year old male and female cats this all the time. They ignore me, and don't answer. They just walk away.)

You will know if Thor is too stressed if he constantly hides, stops eating around Loki, acts afraid of him.
P.s.2 I try to play with both and offer attention equally... But it is hard/tiresome sometimes. Especially in this lockdown period...wfh... Ppl expect so much more done. :-< and getting Thor tired... Is like going to the gym... Full workout session. :)) He is an energy freak.
Just try the best you can. It's true, with this lockdown and wfh...it really does seem like more work, and not less.
(My sister is doing that now, and I think it's the missing of the social talking, walking while working, getting fresh air, social breaks, etc...that makes the day more tiresome.)(My friend who is a commercial electrician is getting annoyed with wearing masks, but he says everyone has to, to stay safe, so hoping that a vaccine is made soon.)

Did you mean getting Loki tired is like going to the gym.? or Thor? or both cats?
I guess on the bright side,...you have your very own 'home gym' and full workout sessions with the cats.
One way to stay in shape.

I know the hearing them vocalizing, loud, squeeking, hissing is difficult.
If you have to intervene sometimes, that is okay, too.
It will teach them to listen to your voice, or just walk between them, to interrupt them for a bit.

Distract them with paper balls, ping pong balls, or other toys.
Remember to remain calm, and not scare them...because they are only Playing.
(Thanks for posting your video. Hope your week goes well.)
 
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Thank you so much for the explanation! Really appreciate your time and patience!

Regarding playtime Thor is the active one and hard to tire out. He goes on and on and on. Loki just needs a couple of runs and a spoon of tuna/chicken and he goes to sleep. :)

If I intervene I try and separate or stop Loki's attacks. He stops and lays on one side. He listens to me but I try and use that as a last resort, as if is true play, I do not want to make Loki afraid of me.

Thank you so much! Will post their crazyness from time to time.

Below a before and after picture of them:
Loki- 1 year later
IMG_20200423_184148.jpg


Thor- around 6-7 months later
IMG_20200423_184348.jpg
 
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