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Beyond Confused

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I have not quite the same, but had the same thoughts about my 2 residents I've had the longest when I brought 2 more adult cats in.
Ziggy is the most recent, and 14 years old. She can be out for some hours then gets an idea to chase and whap the others (I don't think it's play.) Not to hurt, not aggressive, but the others hiss, growl, crouch run a bit and hide in plain sight so I have Ziggy out for limited periods then back in her safe room 3-4 times throughout the day right now. The others immediately recover and are fine. They even know the noise of me putting Ziggy's gates back up at her room when they are in another part of the house :lol:. To have some separation for the others to have quiet time and eat and litter box.
I know Indy is young and energetic so not saying close him up in the bathroom but having some breaks for the others is what I do.
Ziggy's episodes are decreasing, have had her since March.

Indy will calm :).

And for nighttime Waffles and Mooshoo will not share my bed with Gracie, and Gracie won't with them. So, every other night Waffles and Moo get to sleep with me and Gracie on the other nights. Sheesh enough already, can't you guys share a bed? :lol:
It's been a year for that.

I had to laugh at the night time antics. I can relate.

View attachment 359317
Yeah, I do put Indy in the bathroom for a "time out" when he is wild for too long, and I think Duncan has had enough. I sure hope he settles down pretty soon. I'll have to go back to the office sometime in early next year, so I need them to be a well oiled machine by then! :)

Sometimes, I'll take naps on the weekends, and Indy and Duncan will both sleep on my bed. I'm hoping that will eventually translate into nighttime, but I guess we'll see.
 

Beyond Confused

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Thursday night:

Well, first off, I left the house yesterday afternoon, and Duncan and Indy were both allowed to roam free. I came home, and they were both sleeping where I left them. No drama! :party:

Then, when I went to bed last night, Duncan was already sleeping in his carrier. I tried calling him, which normally he'll come running, but he was so far gone, he stayed where he was. I decided to try leaving my door open to see what would happen.
I went to bed at 9. Indy came in to check on me 2 or 3 times during the next few hours. He sniffed my face, but then he'd leave. Not once did he bother Duncan! There was peace in the house until 3:15 when I woke up. By this point, Duncan heard me and crawled out of the carrier. When I went back to bed, I scooped him up and brought him to the bedroom with me. Indy wasn't pestering him at this point either, but I didn't want to take a chance.

It's now 6:15. As I'm typing, I am watching Indy sneak up on Duncan. He just pounced, and they ran away, Duncan screeching. It seems to be short-lived, so that's good.

I'd say that was a pretty successful evening. I'm on vacation (staycation) this next week, so I'll work more on the overnight slumber parties.
 

calicosrspecial

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Thursday night:

Well, first off, I left the house yesterday afternoon, and Duncan and Indy were both allowed to roam free. I came home, and they were both sleeping where I left them. No drama! :party:

Then, when I went to bed last night, Duncan was already sleeping in his carrier. I tried calling him, which normally he'll come running, but he was so far gone, he stayed where he was. I decided to try leaving my door open to see what would happen.
I went to bed at 9. Indy came in to check on me 2 or 3 times during the next few hours. He sniffed my face, but then he'd leave. Not once did he bother Duncan! There was peace in the house until 3:15 when I woke up. By this point, Duncan heard me and crawled out of the carrier. When I went back to bed, I scooped him up and brought him to the bedroom with me. Indy wasn't pestering him at this point either, but I didn't want to take a chance.

It's now 6:15. As I'm typing, I am watching Indy sneak up on Duncan. He just pounced, and they ran away, Duncan screeching. It seems to be short-lived, so that's good.

I'd say that was a pretty successful evening. I'm on vacation (staycation) this next week, so I'll work more on the overnight slumber parties.
"Sometimes, I'll take naps on the weekends, and Indy and Duncan will both sleep on my bed. I'm hoping that will eventually translate into nighttime, but I guess we'll see." - This is so important of a positive. I can stress that enough.

"I'm hoping that will eventually translate into nighttime, but I guess we'll see." - Yes, but the current arrangement isn't too bad, correct?

"Well, first off, I left the house yesterday afternoon, and Duncan and Indy were both allowed to roam free. I came home, and they were both sleeping where I left them. No drama! :party: " - Another great sign. I really don't think you have to worry when you go back to work.

"Then, when I went to bed last night, Duncan was already sleeping in his carrier. I tried calling him, which normally he'll come running, but he was so far gone, he stayed where he was." - Very interesting. Duncan can't be fearing Indy too much if he is feeling that safe and comfortable. That is such a great sign of trust.

"I decided to try leaving my door open to see what would happen." - Good idea.

"I went to bed at 9. Indy came in to check on me 2 or 3 times during the next few hours. He sniffed my face, but then he'd leave." - Awwwwww. Yep cats are active at night. :/

"Not once did he bother Duncan!" - LOVE THIS!! Duncan was still in his carrier, sleeping, correct?

"There was peace in the house until 3:15 when I woke up."

"By this point, Duncan heard me and crawled out of the carrier. When I went back to bed, I scooped him up and brought him to the bedroom with me. Indy wasn't pestering him at this point either, but I didn't want to take a chance." - Wow, that is awesome!!!

"It's now 6:15. As I'm typing, I am watching Indy sneak up on Duncan. He just pounced, and they ran away," - Yep, the old "let's play, it's a new day!!".

" Duncan screeching." - Oh Duncan................

"It seems to be short-lived, so that's good." - Yes, it is Indy wanting to play. He has all that pent up energy from the evening.

"I'd say that was a pretty successful evening." - Understatement of the times. :) I would say that went great!!

" I'm on vacation (staycation) this next week, so I'll work more on the overnight slumber parties." - Sounds good.

Great job!!
 

Beyond Confused

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"I'm hoping that will eventually translate into nighttime, but I guess we'll see." - Yes, but the current arrangement isn't too bad, correct?
Correct, but I feel a little bad closing the door on Indy.



"Not once did he bother Duncan!" - LOVE THIS!! Duncan was still in his carrier, sleeping, correct?
Correct.
 

calicosrspecial

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Correct, but I feel a little bad closing the door on Indy.





Correct.
"Correct, but I feel a little bad closing the door on Indy." - I understand but he is pretty resilient and knows he is loved. It is good to have options. :)

"Correct." - Fantastic. Such a sign of respect towards Duncan. It is these signs that tells us so much about them.

I love blues. My two oldest are blue twins. I love Duncan. He is such a sweetie!! (Not sure where that came from other than my boy jsut walked by). :)
 

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I love blues. My two oldest are blue twins. I love Duncan. He is such a sweetie!! (Not sure where that came from other than my boy jsut walked by). :)
:) I didn't know anything about Russian Blues until I got him. The woman told me that's what he was, and I thought, "Uhhh, ok. That's good?" But he has turned out to be such a great kitty. Admiral was a Maine Coon mix, and he was super awesome as well.
 

calicosrspecial

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:) I didn't know anything about Russian Blues until I got him. The woman told me that's what he was, and I thought, "Uhhh, ok. That's good?" But he has turned out to be such a great kitty. Admiral was a Maine Coon mix, and he was super awesome as well.
Yep, they are special cats. I am not surprised that he is such a good kitty. And SO GORGEOUS!!!!

Ooooooooo, a Maine Coon. Another gorgeous cat. I have never had one but if I ever can. There aren't too many Maine Coon ferals (thankfully).
 

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Yep, they are special cats. I am not surprised that he is such a good kitty. And SO GORGEOUS!!!!

Ooooooooo, a Maine Coon. Another gorgeous cat. I have never had one but if I ever can. There aren't too many Maine Coon ferals (thankfully).
Admiral was such a gentle soul. I miss that cat every single day, and it's been over 2 years. :(
 

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Admiral was such a gentle soul. I miss that cat every single day, and it's been over 2 years. :(
:( Love never forgets.

I know the feeling all too well. I try to focus on the time I was lucky enough to have with them and think of all the good times with them. If we make their lives better even for a shorter time than we would desire it is good.

But it is never easy and I have shed a lot of tears over the loved ones I have lost. I have a feral colony that I sadly suffer loss often and it isn't easy. Even for cats not in our house it is still heartbreaking and I still remember the ones from yeas and years ago. They really do take a piece of our hearts and they always remain there. :/

But at least we can share love with them even if it is shorter than we would like. :/ I did just tear up now........................ My girl on my lap is actually headbutting me as if to say it is ok. They just know the emotions. :/
 

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Hey there.

It's been several days since I last updated. Things remain the same - Indy plays way too rough. I know you've said over and over that Duncan's actions a few minutes after the fights show that he doesn't think they're too serious, but I've been watching as they happen, and I wonder.
Indy may be playing, but Duncan sure doesn't sound like he's too impressed. He screeches every time Indy comes near him or he (Duncan) runs and hides behind or next to me for protection. In addition, Duncan is still running and hiding in the half bath to get away from Indy.

Yes, there are long periods of the day where they stay away from each other and there's peace in the house, but I don't think the periods of rough "play" are settling down at all.

We just got done with one of those], and Indy is currently locked in the sun room to cool down.

I think there have only been a couple times where they were racing around the house and screaming wasn't involved.

I compare this to the play fighting between Duncan and Admiral, and it was completely different. Yes, they had those moments where the fur was literally flying, but those moments were so few and far between - think months. They would wrestle all the time, but I hardly ever heard them screeching, hissing, or growling while doing it.

I know I'm super protective of Duncan, and for good reason - He's been with me almost 12 years, and he's my sweet boy...but I just can't believe this level of roughness is still going on and that it's good for his health.

Any thoughts?
 

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Hey there.

It's been several days since I last updated. Things remain the same - Indy plays way too rough. I know you've said over and over that Duncan's actions a few minutes after the fights show that he doesn't think they're too serious, but I've been watching as they happen, and I wonder.
Indy may be playing, but Duncan sure doesn't sound like he's too impressed. He screeches every time Indy comes near him or he (Duncan) runs and hides behind or next to me for protection. In addition, Duncan is still running and hiding in the half bath to get away from Indy.

Yes, there are long periods of the day where they stay away from each other and there's peace in the house, but I don't think the periods of rough "play" are settling down at all.

We just got done with one of those], and Indy is currently locked in the sun room to cool down.

I think there have only been a couple times where they were racing around the house and screaming wasn't involved.

I compare this to the play fighting between Duncan and Admiral, and it was completely different. Yes, they had those moments where the fur was literally flying, but those moments were so few and far between - think months. They would wrestle all the time, but I hardly ever heard them screeching, hissing, or growling while doing it.

I know I'm super protective of Duncan, and for good reason - He's been with me almost 12 years, and he's my sweet boy...but I just can't believe this level of roughness is still going on and that it's good for his health.

Any thoughts?
"Things remain the same - Indy plays way too rough. I know you've said over and over that Duncan's actions a few minutes after the fights show that he doesn't think they're too serious, but I've been watching as they happen, and I wonder." - Ok, let's see how he i acting.

"Indy may be playing, but Duncan sure doesn't sound like he's too impressed. He screeches every time Indy comes near him or he (Duncan) runs and hides behind or next to me for protection. In addition, Duncan is still running and hiding in the half bath to get away from Indy." - Ok. Then how does Duncan act after Indy stops? Are you trying to distract Indy in those moments? Is Indy receptive? If you can get Indy to break the focus on Duncan and then "go after" something else that should help Duncan build some confidence.

"Yes, there are long periods of the day where they stay away from each other and there's peace in the house" - That is very positive. That tells me that indy doesn't want to eliminate Duncan, drive him off, etc. Which then tells me it is play albeit too rough.

"but I don't think the periods of rough "play" are settling down at all." - Ok. Then we'll have to intervene more if possible and get Indy to focus on something else and if possible try to find things that can burn off his energy. Is there a pattern as to when this tends to happen? Or is the play really random?

"We just got done with one of those], and Indy is currently locked in the sun room to cool down." - How is Duncan acting after this?

"I think there have only been a couple times where they were racing around the house and screaming wasn't involved." - Do you think Duncan was playing in those moments?

"I compare this to the play fighting between Duncan and Admiral, and it was completely different." - Yes, it often is. There is a whole spectrum of how cats interact. There is the moment and then there is all the other time. And how those interface tend to tell us the intent of those rough play moments. I think distracting is a good way to try to communicate the displeasure if the cat is not willing to do that.

"Yes, they had those moments where the fur was literally flying, but those moments were so few and far between - think months." - Yes. Sometimes you never see that. Sometimes you see it more often. Was Duncan the resident cat before Admiral?

"They would wrestle all the time, but I hardly ever heard them screeching, hissing, or growling while doing it." - Did Duncan ever show any unease after those?

"I know I'm super protective of Duncan, and for good reason - He's been with me almost 12 years, and he's my sweet boy..." - Rightly so. Especially given his health issues. It is a balance between being his confidence and being a conduit to confidence. It is a challenge we all have. I really don't think Indy means harm and that Duncan has some limited residual fears and it seems Duncan trusts until there is a moment in the wrestling/rough play when he just can't hold on the trust and runs and it escalates the situation potentially.

Do you notice if it escalates as it progresses? So if Duncan runs does Indy get more aggressive? Or does Indy "stand down"?

"but I just can't believe this level of roughness is still going on and that it's good for his health." - Are you noticing any changes in his health? Throwing up? Diarrhea? Changes in walking? Avoiding areas? Going outside of the litter box? Etc?

"Any thoughts?" - I would distract as needed. So be a conduit to confidence by redirecting Indy. Call his name (as that is the easiest), then go over and "tell him", then try a toy, etc. And I would think about trying to get Indy focused on other things. Maybe have a TV on with CatTV, have places for him to look at the wildlife and passerbys. Think about adding cat shelving where they can go around the room above the floor. Tie in cat trees where they can zoom up then on to the shelving and then down a cabinet, etc. Things to burn off energy and get some mental stimulation potentially. I personally step up play, I distract as needed, and I get those views outside and set up places they can run up and down and around without touching the floor. So I would pick and chose if possible those.

I would also keep feeding them together (even if it is just Indy eating), distracting as needed. Anything to show Duncan that Indy is not always focused on him. Anytime you can get Indy to look away from Duncan it is a positive in building confidence.
 

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"Indy may be playing, but Duncan sure doesn't sound like he's too impressed. He screeches every time Indy comes near him or he (Duncan) runs and hides behind or next to me for protection. In addition, Duncan is still running and hiding in the half bath to get away from Indy." - Ok. Then how does Duncan act after Indy stops?
If say, for instance, he's hiding behind the toilet in the half bath, he cries out, even when I'm the one who goes in there. I'll pet him, and he'll cry a little more, and then he stops.


Are you trying to distract Indy in those moments? Is Indy receptive? If you can get Indy to break the focus on Duncan and then "go after" something else that should help Duncan build some confidence.
Yes, I re-direct Indy elsewhere. I'll toss a toy, or I'll call him to a different area of the house. I'd say that 3 out of 4 times, he'll allow himself to be distracted, but then he'll go right back to find Duncan.


"but I don't think the periods of rough "play" are settling down at all." - Ok. Then we'll have to intervene more if possible and get Indy to focus on something else and if possible try to find things that can burn off his energy. Is there a pattern as to when this tends to happen? Or is the play really random?
Definitely first thing in the morning. The rest of the time seems pretty random.


"We just got done with one of those], and Indy is currently locked in the sun room to cool down." - How is Duncan acting after this?
See my first answer above. About 5 minutes after that, he was sitting on the arm of the recliner, relaxed.


"I think there have only been a couple times where they were racing around the house and screaming wasn't involved." - Do you think Duncan was playing in those moments?
I guess it's possible, since he wasn't screaming at Indy.


"Yes, they had those moments where the fur was literally flying, but those moments were so few and far between - think months." - Yes. Sometimes you never see that. Sometimes you see it more often. Was Duncan the resident cat before Admiral?
Yes. I got Admiral about 7 months after I got Duncan.


"They would wrestle all the time, but I hardly ever heard them screeching, hissing, or growling while doing it." - Did Duncan ever show any unease after those?
No. In fact, they would scatter when I stood up to intervene. One would race to the bedroom and one would go toward the sun room. I'd close the LR/hallway door knowing it would be a few minutes before they'd figure out that they could just walk around the house to find each other. Immediately after I would "separate" them in this manner, they would be on opposite sides of the door, putting feet under it and that sort of thing.


Do you notice if it escalates as it progresses? So if Duncan runs does Indy get more aggressive? Or does Indy "stand down"?
I would say that it does get more aggressive as it goes on. For example, it might start with Indy smacking Duncan upside the head. Duncan will make noises - growling, hissing, or kind of screechy. After this, Duncan will try to leave the area, but Indy will go into pounce mode and race after him. Duncan will try to run away, and he becomes Indy's prey. There are times when Indy will immediately lie down in front of Duncan, but it's usually short-lived, and then he's right back at it.


"but I just can't believe this level of roughness is still going on and that it's good for his health." - Are you noticing any changes in his health? Throwing up? Diarrhea? Changes in walking? Avoiding areas? Going outside of the litter box? Etc?
No, THANKFULLY!


"Any thoughts?" - I would distract as needed. So be a conduit to confidence by redirecting Indy. Call his name (as that is the easiest), then go over and "tell him", then try a toy, etc. And I would think about trying to get Indy focused on other things. Maybe have a TV on with CatTV, have places for him to look at the wildlife and passerbys. Think about adding cat shelving where they can go around the room above the floor. Tie in cat trees where they can zoom up then on to the shelving and then down a cabinet, etc. Things to burn off energy and get some mental stimulation potentially. I personally step up play, I distract as needed, and I get those views outside and set up places they can run up and down and around without touching the floor. So I would pick and chose if possible those.
They do have cat trees and windows all over. Indy especially loves the front window. He sits or sleeps in front of it for hours everyday.
He also loves toys, so I got a couple more for him the other day. One is a rug toy that has holes in it. You hide toys in it. He absolutely loves that. I also got a toy with sliding covers that you hide treats in. He hasn't really caught onto that one yet.


I would also keep feeding them together (even if it is just Indy eating), distracting as needed. Anything to show Duncan that Indy is not always focused on him. Anytime you can get Indy to look away from Duncan it is a positive in building confidence.
I feed them at the same time, but I currently have Indy's bowl in the dining room. Duncan's is in the LR. I guess I can try putting Indy's in here as well.
 

Beyond Confused

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So this just happened...
Duncan walked in the bedroom a little bit ago, and Indy quickly followed. I didn't hear anything, and then I eventually forgot about it. Just now, I realized Indy hadn't come back, so I went in search of them. Please excuse the messy bed. I never leave my bed like this, but it's my last day of vacation, so I'm going with it. :lol:

I know they're not snuggling, but they did seem quite content.
 

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calicosrspecial

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So this just happened...
Duncan walked in the bedroom a little bit ago, and Indy quickly followed. I didn't hear anything, and then I eventually forgot about it. Just now, I realized Indy hadn't come back, so I went in search of them. Please excuse the messy bed. I never leave my bed like this, but it's my last day of vacation, so I'm going with it. :lol:

I know they're not snuggling, but they did seem quite content.
:)

A picture says a thousand words. :)

They are looking at you like "what mom, we are just hangin' out".

I would say those are two happy and content and trusting cats. If Duncan had issues with Indy there is no way they would look like this.

Btw, aren't they the most ADORABLE cats?!?!?!?!?!?!?! I mean seriously, look at them!!!

"If say, for instance, he's hiding behind the toilet in the half bath, he cries out, even when I'm the one who goes in there. I'll pet him, and he'll cry a little more, and then he stops." - Hmmmmm.

"Yes, I re-direct Indy elsewhere. I'll toss a toy, or I'll call him to a different area of the house. I'd say that 3 out of 4 times, he'll allow himself to be distracted," - Great, that is really good!!

" but then he'll go right back to find Duncan." - Yep no toy can replace a brother. :/

"Definitely first thing in the morning. The rest of the time seems pretty random." - Yes, pent up energy and playtime.

"See my first answer above. About 5 minutes after that, he was sitting on the arm of the recliner, relaxed. " - Great, that is what we want to see. If there were issues he would be hiding, avoiding, etc. and for longer periods.

"I guess it's possible, since he wasn't screaming at Indy." - Or at least he wasn't that bothered.


Yes. I got Admiral about 7 months after I got Duncan." - Makes sense. The resident cat typically is more territorial and has a more difficult time adjusting/accepting etc. And they like things on their terms (I think with Admiral) and they view the new cat as kinda annoying.

"No. In fact, they would scatter when I stood up to intervene. One would race to the bedroom and one would go toward the sun room. I'd close the LR/hallway door knowing it would be a few minutes before they'd figure out that they could just walk around the house to find each other. Immediately after I would "separate" them in this manner, they would be on opposite sides of the door, putting feet under it and that sort of thing. " - Yep, boys............................ That is good though.


"I would say that it does get more aggressive as it goes on. For example, it might start with Indy smacking Duncan upside the head. Duncan will make noises - growling, hissing, or kind of screechy." - Yes, this is the "let's play start".

" After this, Duncan will try to leave the area, but Indy will go into pounce mode and race after him. Duncan will try to run away, and he becomes Indy's prey." - Yep, this is the "come on, play with me" action.

" There are times when Indy will immediately lie down in front of Duncan" - THAT is a BIG DEAL and a great sign. Indy telling Duncan "hey, I don't mean harm". Did Admiral ever do that?

,"but it's usually short-lived, and then he's right back at it. " - Yep, because he told him he doesn't mean harm and then thinks play is ok again. :/

"No, THANKFULLY!" - That is great news. I don't think he is too stressed.

"They do have cat trees and windows all over. Indy especially loves the front window. He sits or sleeps in front of it for hours everyday.
He also loves toys, so I got a couple more for him the other day. One is a rug toy that has holes in it. You hide toys in it. He absolutely loves that. I also got a toy with sliding covers that you hide treats in. He hasn't really caught onto that one yet." - Perfect. If you can get them kind of an obstacle course set up they can love that as well. Great job on the toys.

"I feed them at the same time, but I currently have Indy's bowl in the dining room. Duncan's is in the LR. I guess I can try putting Indy's in here as well." Well, if it is working now you don't have to change it. Best if they just have a good meal.

I just don't get a sense there are issues. Indy does annoy Duncan no doubt (at times) but it seems like Duncan manages it well. I just see every indication Indy LOVES Duncan and just can't resist getting his brother to play. :/.
 

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" There are times when Indy will immediately lie down in front of Duncan" - THAT is a BIG DEAL and a great sign. Indy telling Duncan "hey, I don't mean harm". Did Admiral ever do that?
No, but legitimately, they just got along so well. Plus, Admiral was pretty laid back. The only time they'd get worked up is when Admiral would want to snuggle, and Duncan wasn't in the mood. But Admiral never saw Duncan as prey, and Duncan never seemed to feel threatened.


"They do have cat trees and windows all over. Indy especially loves the front window. He sits or sleeps in front of it for hours everyday.
He also loves toys, so I got a couple more for him the other day. One is a rug toy that has holes in it. You hide toys in it. He absolutely loves that. I also got a toy with sliding covers that you hide treats in. He hasn't really caught onto that one yet." - Perfect. If you can get them kind of an obstacle course set up they can love that as well. Great job on the toys.
I just don't have room in this little house for stuff like that. The extra toys I bought the other day have already spilled out into the rest of the house. One of the toys takes up the entire area under the dining room table.
 
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