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calicosrspecial

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Duncan faces Indy when they're doing the bedroom stuff. I'd say they're about 6 feet apart.




I think it's because we just started this yesterday. I'll start moving the bowls in over time. And he's not spending less time in the bedroom.




Sounds good.
"Duncan faces Indy when they're doing the bedroom stuff. I'd say they're about 6 feet apart." - Great.

"I think it's because we just started this yesterday. I'll start moving the bowls in over time."{ - Makes sense. That is what I thought. Just change. Cats don't like change.

"And he's not spending less time in the bedroom." - Perfect!!! GREAT to hear.

"Sounds good." - Great. Start preparing mentally as there will be some downs. Some negativity. But they are well past any risk. Any negativity will be blips.
 

Beyond Confused

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Thursday morning:
It was just okay. I got them both in the bedroom and somewhat settled. I was able to put Duncan's bowl a little further in the room, and he came over to eat, so that was the positive.

Now the negative: a couple of times, Indy tried to race after Duncan. I was able to stop him, and luckily, Duncan was in the hallway, so I'm not sure if he noticed.

I'm afraid Indy is always going to want to play rough with Duncan. He was all out sprinting his way over, and he wasn't deterred by the toy this time. I think I had to stop him by picking him up and turning him around. :frustrated:

Had I known that this was going to take months, I'm not sure I would've gotten another kitty. I know it's moving in the right direction, but still. I don't know that it's worth all this.
 

calicosrspecial

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Thursday morning:
It was just okay. I got them both in the bedroom and somewhat settled. I was able to put Duncan's bowl a little further in the room, and he came over to eat, so that was the positive.

Now the negative: a couple of times, Indy tried to race after Duncan. I was able to stop him, and luckily, Duncan was in the hallway, so I'm not sure if he noticed.

I'm afraid Indy is always going to want to play rough with Duncan. He was all out sprinting his way over, and he wasn't deterred by the toy this time. I think I had to stop him by picking him up and turning him around. :frustrated:

Had I known that this was going to take months, I'm not sure I would've gotten another kitty. I know it's moving in the right direction, but still. I don't know that it's worth all this.
"It was just okay." - Ok

" I got them both in the bedroom and somewhat settled." - Great

" I was able to put Duncan's bowl a little further in the room, and he came over to eat, so that was the positive." Great. Not much hesitation? Did he eat right away or fairly quickly?

"Now the negative: a couple of times, Indy tried to race after Duncan." - Ok, not surprising. How was Indy's body language? More playful?

"I was able to stop him" - Great.

" and luckily, Duncan was in the hallway, so I'm not sure if he noticed." - So Duncan had his back to Indy? Could Indy see Duncan? ID you play with Indy before the session or not enough time?

How did Duncan react to Indy and after this?

"I'm afraid Indy is always going to want to play rough with Duncan" - Not sure we have enough info on this AND it will depend on Duncan. Duncan will tell him the limit. All evidence so far is Indy respects Duncan so................... And rough play is not that big a deal. It would be if it causes Duncan stress. But I suspect Duncan would let Indy know what is acceptable and what isn't.

"He was all out sprinting his way over, and he wasn't deterred by the toy this time." - Not surprising. Again, what was his body language like? I can't believe it was an attack or territorial issue but I want to get your opinion. And the fact Duncan seems (I could be wrong) not to have responded to it couldn't mean it is that bad. How did Duncan act after?

" I think I had to stop him by picking him up and turning him around." - Yeah, that is not uncommon. How did Indy act after that?

"Had I known that this was going to take months, I'm not sure I would've gotten another kitty." - Well, what is in the past is done. I think that is the stress, frustration, fatigue, etc of not only this but other things going on in life. We are living in crazy times right now in general. Last night I had a coyote pack targeting my ferals. Talk about stressful and feeling helpless and having that stress combined with the risks from Covid (I am at high risk so am contained to be home all the time having to avoid people) and all the sadness and uncertainty in this crazy world. These are tough times. I know in my life I had many, many things in life that I wish I had done differently. All we can do is learn for the future and do our best. Try our best, persevere. I honestly think that cat intros actually build life skills that help us in other parts of our lives. Dealing with adversity, dealing with uncertainty, learning to think, learning to persevere, understanding other viewpoints, etc. I think these help in our careers, our relationships, in helping us personally (just handling all the stuff life throws at us). You are young so you probably haven't experienced the life challenges many of us older people have. Problems that happen to us through no fault of our own. I think the key is learning that life sometimes isn't fair, definitely not perfect BUT we can achieve more than we may realize if e do our best and keep moving forward (never giving up).

"I know it's moving in the right direction, but still. I don't know that it's worth all this." - It is definitely moving in the right direction. Indy "going after" Duncan really isn't a big deal especially given Duncan's reaction. Let Duncan tell us if it is too much. I know it is frustrating and stressful and the fact you love Duncan so much makes it harder because you want what is perfect for him. BUT he is doing REALLY well. And on a separate note, you have done an amazing job. Like textbook, pro work on intros. I think you are 2 weeks away. It would be like dropping out of school before the finals in your senior year. I sense it is just frustration talking and probably all the things going on in life that are causing stress. It is good to get it out. I think it will definitely be worth it. There is an old saying "when the going gets tough the tough get going". I talk about Duncan getting tested but it is also a test for the human. I know you can pass it. You are too smart not to. And I truly believe the lessons learned here are going to help you in life going forward. I know I have benefited from the same lessons (no question today I am a better, stronger person than I have ever been - not because of your situation but because of all my experiences for the decades before this).

Hang in there, you are almost there. Everything you are feeling, going through I am most of the people I have helped have felt and gone through. These are normal human emotions. I know you can handle them and I will help you in any way I can.

Someday years from now a lot of the above will make sense. I know it is hard to relate now but I have walked in your shoes. I know the feelings, I know the challenges. It will be worth it. And let Duncan tell us what he is thinking. Let's try not to put our thoughts into what Duncan is feeling. He will tell us.

Keep up the great work. You really have done a great job so far. AND I would say Indy and Duncan are doing their parts.
 

Beyond Confused

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" I was able to put Duncan's bowl a little further in the room, and he came over to eat, so that was the positive." Great. Not much hesitation? Did he eat right away or fairly quickly?
Fairly quickly.


"Now the negative: a couple of times, Indy tried to race after Duncan." - Ok, not surprising. How was Indy's body language? More playful?
Like he was ready to pounce.


" and luckily, Duncan was in the hallway, so I'm not sure if he noticed." - So Duncan had his back to Indy? Could Indy see Duncan? ID you play with Indy before the session or not enough time?
I don't think Duncan had his back to Indy, but I think he was far enough removed from the bedroom that he just didn't notice. And yes, I think Indy could see Duncan.

There wasn't enough time to play prior to eating, but I keep the fishing pole toy with me. When he looks like he's a little too interested in Duncan, I toss the toy out, and he usually gets interested in it right away.


How did Duncan react to Indy and after this?
Well, I'm pretty sure Duncan didn't see any of this. After he ate, he was ready to exit stage left.
This said, as it has been the last several days, once Duncan decides to head to the LR, I move his food out to the other side of the gate. Almost every time he goes to get more food, Indy will sprawl out on the other side of the gate and watch Duncan eat. He's not threatening, and Duncan doesn't seem to care that Indy is a foot away. And this morning, before Duncan went to get a little more to eat, I saw him sitting directly on the other side of the gate from Indy, and he wasn't bothered. He wasn't paying attention to Indy either, so it really caught my attention. We're talking just enough space between them to accommodate the baby gate.


" I think I had to stop him by picking him up and turning him around." - Yeah, that is not uncommon. How did Indy act after that?
He just went right back to eating as if nothing had happened.


"Had I known that this was going to take months, I'm not sure I would've gotten another kitty." - Well, what is in the past is done. I think that is the stress, frustration, fatigue, etc of not only this but other things going on in life. We are living in crazy times right now in general. Last night I had a coyote pack targeting my ferals. Talk about stressful and feeling helpless and having that stress combined with the risks from Covid (I am at high risk so am contained to be home all the time having to avoid people) and all the sadness and uncertainty in this crazy world. These are tough times. I know in my life I had many, many things in life that I wish I had done differently. All we can do is learn for the future and do our best. Try our best, persevere. I honestly think that cat intros actually build life skills that help us in other parts of our lives. Dealing with adversity, dealing with uncertainty, learning to think, learning to persevere, understanding other viewpoints, etc. I think these help in our careers, our relationships, in helping us personally (just handling all the stuff life throws at us). You are young so you probably haven't experienced the life challenges many of us older people have. Problems that happen to us through no fault of our own. I think the key is learning that life sometimes isn't fair, definitely not perfect BUT we can achieve more than we may realize if e do our best and keep moving forward (never giving up).
:lol: I'm 45, but thanks.

Hopefully the ferals are OK. I'm glad I don't live in an area with coyotes. Eek!
 

pearl99

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I have to second what calicosrspecial says about the process of cat intros and the emotions! Duncan will set limits, and Indy will be calmer as he gets older. Waffles did that with Mooshoo and they are good. Another two of mine don't share couch space or bed space with each other, they coexist and we work it out (2 years old and 13 years old.) It's a peaceful household. Sometimes that's what cats decide to do.
Duncan and Indy have a good base of positive experiences. There will be the hissing, growling- that's one way cats communicate (I've had to realize it's not a disaster when they do that)- 2 of mine who play together and are buddies still do that sometimes. Like this morning.

Hang in there!

HangIn.jpg
 

Beyond Confused

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I have to second what calicosrspecial says about the process of cat intros and the emotions! Duncan will set limits, and Indy will be calmer as he gets older. Waffles did that with Mooshoo and they are good. Another two of mine don't share couch space or bed space with each other, they coexist and we work it out (2 years old and 13 years old.) It's a peaceful household. Sometimes that's what cats decide to do.
Duncan and Indy have a good base of positive experiences. There will be the hissing, growling- that's one way cats communicate (I've had to realize it's not a disaster when they do that)- 2 of mine who play together and are buddies still do that sometimes. Like this morning.

Hang in there!

View attachment 352146

Thanks, I hope you're right. I would love for these two to actually get along and not just co-exist.

Duncan and Admiral used to fight with screeching and fur flying at times, but all I had to do was stand up, and they scattered. In seconds, they'd complete forget what they were even fighting about.
 

calicosrspecial

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Fairly quickly.




Like he was ready to pounce.




I don't think Duncan had his back to Indy, but I think he was far enough removed from the bedroom that he just didn't notice. And yes, I think Indy could see Duncan.

There wasn't enough time to play prior to eating, but I keep the fishing pole toy with me. When he looks like he's a little too interested in Duncan, I toss the toy out, and he usually gets interested in it right away.




Well, I'm pretty sure Duncan didn't see any of this. After he ate, he was ready to exit stage left.
This said, as it has been the last several days, once Duncan decides to head to the LR, I move his food out to the other side of the gate. Almost every time he goes to get more food, Indy will sprawl out on the other side of the gate and watch Duncan eat. He's not threatening, and Duncan doesn't seem to care that Indy is a foot away. And this morning, before Duncan went to get a little more to eat, I saw him sitting directly on the other side of the gate from Indy, and he wasn't bothered. He wasn't paying attention to Indy either, so it really caught my attention. We're talking just enough space between them to accommodate the baby gate.




He just went right back to eating as if nothing had happened.




:lol: I'm 45, but thanks.

Hopefully the ferals are OK. I'm glad I don't live in an area with coyotes. Eek!
"Fairly quickly." - Great!! That is impressive. Tells me he was ok with Indy being close in a different area (bedroom with Indy in bedroom).

"Like he was ready to pounce." - Playful pounce? I guess I am around so many cats and for years so I can tell right away. I just don't see Indy being aggressive. Doesn't match with the historical experience.

"I don't think Duncan had his back to Indy, but I think he was far enough removed from the bedroom that he just didn't notice." - Hmmmmm, if he didn't really notice then there is a lot more trust than I realized. OR Duncan didn't think anything of it. Either way, Duncan's "reaction" is positive.

"And yes, I think Indy could see Duncan." - Ok. I suspect it was all play.

"There wasn't enough time to play prior to eating" - Yeah, kinda figured. It is hard to always find the time. I bring it up to better understand the situation. I am more convinced it was all about play.

"but I keep the fishing pole toy with me." - Yes, that is good.

"When he looks like he's a little too interested in Duncan, I toss the toy out, and he usually gets interested in it right away." - Yes, which is a positive and tells me they will be fine.

"Well, I'm pretty sure Duncan didn't see any of this. After he ate, he was ready to exit stage left." - Perfect. I am not really convinced Duncan didn't know what is going on. Cats are pretty good at knowing what is going on.

"This said, as it has been the last several days, once Duncan decides to head to the LR, I move his food out to the other side of the gate. Almost every time he goes to get more food, Indy will sprawl out on the other side of the gate and watch Duncan eat. He's not threatening, and Duncan doesn't seem to care that Indy is a foot away. And this morning, before Duncan went to get a little more to eat, I saw him sitting directly on the other side of the gate from Indy, and he wasn't bothered. He wasn't paying attention to Indy either, so it really caught my attention. We're talking just enough space between them to accommodate the baby gate. " - Well, THAT is GREAT!!! This is a big deal. Really terrific!!

"He just went right back to eating as if nothing had happened." - :yess: :hyper: :clap2: THAT tells me it was all play. And combined with Duncan's reaction I would not worry on iota.

":lol: I'm 45, but thanks." - Yep, you are young!!

"Hopefully the ferals are OK. I'm glad I don't live in an area with coyotes. Eek! " - Thank you. It is awful. They were here this morning so they made it through the night. We have a lot of predators sadly. The coyote packs are the worst. The cats were here hanging out, enjoying the early night when the pack came. I had to chase them off but they come back. The coyotes often watch me feeding the ferals. My one male confronted and drove off a coyote a while ago. I wish I could take them inside. :( My stress is high. I guess I should feel better that they made it through another night. But sadly, Rinse and Repeat is something I deal with every day here. :(

"Thanks, I hope you're right. I would love for these two to actually get along and not just co-exist." - I suspect it will be all up to Duncan. What he wants. I have learned to just go with what they want as long as they are happy that is all that matters.

"Duncan and Admiral used to fight with screeching and fur flying at times" - Oh wow. BUT they never actually hurt each other? So they knew the limit? The line?

"but all I had to do was stand up, and they scattered." - Yep, that happens all the time.

"In seconds, they'd complete forget what they were even fighting about." - Isn't that amazing? That tells me that it was more rough play than anything meaningful. I have two male ferals in my colony that will wrestle, etc, like really rough then rub on each other and eat together. It is just them. They sleep together, fight off coyotes together, etc. They TOTALLY LOVE each other but if an outsider saw it at the wrong moment they would think they hated each other. Some cats express tings in different ways. As you mentioned, Duncan mourned Admiral. There was a lot more love then we sometimes see in the moment.

I am not at all worried about Indy and Duncan.

Hang in there, you, Duncan and Indy are doing great. I think your fears, anxiety, and uncertainty will go away fairly soon. I have done I don't know how many intros now but you are like in the top 5%ile of good intros. This had been surprisingly good (I expected much, much worse). You should see what I have dealt with over the years. This one is easy compared to the vast majority. Thanks to your efforts mainly!!
 

calicosrspecial

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I know you're having a time with it all, but these two cats couldn't have a better person, and team, working on their behalf.

My hat is off to all of you 💗👍🐾❣
I TOTALLY AGREE!!!

My dream is that everyone I help put in just half the effort and half the quality of work that you put in!!!

I totally agree. I am so proud of your effort and dedication. Not only the amount of effort but the quality.
 

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Thursday night:
I played with Indy before dinner, until he started slowing down.

Duncan ate right away, and Indy did, too. Occasionally, they would take turns looking over at each other, and then go back to eating.
Indy ate with his back to Duncan, and Duncan ate facing Indy.

3 or 4 minutes into it, Indy caught in interest in Duncan. He would play with the fishing pole toy, but he was more interested in trying to get to Duncan. I didn't have to pick him up and re-route him this time, but it was a bit of a struggle keeping him more focused on the toy. Eventually, Duncan walked down the hall to the gates, and Indy turned his attention back to his food bowl.

After Indy was firmly face planted in his kibble, I stuck my hand out and Duncan came over for a quick head rub. I noticed his fur was kind of standing up. That said, he has really plush fur that will stay in whatever position you place it. So I don't know if it was because he had been sitting, or if he was freaked out. I didn't notice any other issues with him, though. I opened the door, and he walked out.

I moved his bowl to the other side of the gate, and Indy promptly parked himself right in front on the other side.
 

calicosrspecial

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Thursday night:
I played with Indy before dinner, until he started slowing down.

Duncan ate right away, and Indy did, too. Occasionally, they would take turns looking over at each other, and then go back to eating.
Indy ate with his back to Duncan, and Duncan ate facing Indy.

3 or 4 minutes into it, Indy caught in interest in Duncan. He would play with the fishing pole toy, but he was more interested in trying to get to Duncan. I didn't have to pick him up and re-route him this time, but it was a bit of a struggle keeping him more focused on the toy. Eventually, Duncan walked down the hall to the gates, and Indy turned his attention back to his food bowl.

After Indy was firmly face planted in his kibble, I stuck my hand out and Duncan came over for a quick head rub. I noticed his fur was kind of standing up. That said, he has really plush fur that will stay in whatever position you place it. So I don't know if it was because he had been sitting, or if he was freaked out. I didn't notice any other issues with him, though. I opened the door, and he walked out.

I moved his bowl to the other side of the gate, and Indy promptly parked himself right in front on the other side.
"I played with Indy before dinner, until he started slowing down." - Great.

"Duncan ate right away, and Indy did, too." - Perfect. If there were issues this would not happen.

"Occasionally, they would take turns looking over at each other, and then go back to eating." - Totally normal AND actually positive as it builds confidence as the other cat is not focused on them.

"Indy ate with his back to Duncan, and Duncan ate facing Indy." - Perfect. Indy shows he trust Duncan which helps Duncan.

"3 or 4 minutes into it, Indy caught in interest in Duncan." - Yep, other cats tend to be more interesting.

" He would play with the fishing pole toy, but he was more interested in trying to get to Duncan." - Good that he did play with the toy.

" I didn't have to pick him up and re-route him this time, but it was a bit of a struggle keeping him more focused on the toy." - Great. That is fine. He chose to redirect. And what is important is how Duncan reacts to Indy movements towards him.

"Eventually, Duncan walked down the hall to the gates" - Perfect. Did he walk normally?

"and Indy turned his attention back to his food bowl.' - And yes. Indy doesn't force attention, let's Duncan have his time. Helps build trust and confidence for Duncan.

"After Indy was firmly face planted in his kibble" - Perfect.

" I stuck my hand out and Duncan came over for a quick head rub." - How far from Indy were you at this point?

"I noticed his fur was kind of standing up." - What was his body language like? What were his movements like? Cautious, normal. Tail position? Walking low to the ground? Was he grooming at all?

"That said, he has really plush fur that will stay in whatever position you place it. So I don't know if it was because he had been sitting, or if he was freaked out." - There really was nothing to freak Duncan out so I am guessing it was the former. If Duncan was freaked he would either attack or retreat. From what I am reading what happened is not consistent with freaking out. But good to get more info.

"I didn't notice any other issues with him, though." - Great. Ok, that also supports the thinking.

" I opened the door, and he walked out." - Oh, so he was still in the territory enclosed with doors and gates?

"I moved his bowl to the other side of the gate, and Indy promptly parked himself right in front on the other side." - Awwwwwww. Duncan was acting normally? Indy seems to really like Duncan. Duncan has been really good to Indy so it is understandable. Duncan has not really been threatening to Indy.

Sounds like a great session. Seemed positive. Would you agree?
 

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we are going through the same thing we adopted two cats one is getting along with the resident cat and the other one keeps chasing the other one and fighting we are using feliway
 

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we had them alittle over three weeks we adopted them from the local shelter they are alittle older than he is
 

calicosrspecial

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we are going through the same thing we adopted two cats one is getting along with the resident cat and the other one keeps chasing the other one and fighting we are using feliway
Kathy,

This thread I think is a good blueprint for how to do it right but if you need more specific advice please let me know. Focus on positive associations (food) and positive encounters while building confidence through Play, Food, Height and Love (if safe).

Just let me know if you need more personalized help.
 

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"Eventually, Duncan walked down the hall to the gates" - Perfect. Did he walk normally?
I guess so. lol I just looked over, and he was sitting by the gates.


" I stuck my hand out and Duncan came over for a quick head rub." - How far from Indy were you at this point?
Ummm...I'd say Duncan was about 7 feet away.


"I noticed his fur was kind of standing up." - What was his body language like? What were his movements like? Cautious, normal. Tail position? Walking low to the ground? Was he grooming at all?


"That said, he has really plush fur that will stay in whatever position you place it. So I don't know if it was because he had been sitting, or if he was freaked out." - There really was nothing to freak Duncan out so I am guessing it was the former. If Duncan was freaked he would either attack or retreat. From what I am reading what happened is not consistent with freaking out. But good to get more info.
He seemed ok - no grooming, walking low to the ground or anything.



"I moved his bowl to the other side of the gate, and Indy promptly parked himself right in front on the other side." - Awwwwwww. Duncan was acting normally? Indy seems to really like Duncan. Duncan has been really good to Indy so it is understandable. Duncan has not really been threatening to Indy.
Let's be real here - it could totally be because someone is eating on the other side of the gate. That cat is INSANE with food.
 

Beyond Confused

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calicosrspecial

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I guess so. lol I just looked over, and he was sitting by the gates.




Ummm...I'd say Duncan was about 7 feet away.




He seemed ok - no grooming, walking low to the ground or anything.





Let's be real here - it could totally be because someone is eating on the other side of the gate. That cat is INSANE with food.
"I guess so. lol I just looked over, and he was sitting by the gates." - Great. Yeah, if there were issues you would have known. Good to hear.

"Ummm...I'd say Duncan was about 7 feet away." - Great.

"He seemed ok - no grooming, walking low to the ground or anything." - Perfect. That tells us a lot. If there were issues he would not be acting normally. Great news.

"Let's be real here - it could totally be because someone is eating on the other side of the gate. That cat is INSANE with food." - Hahahahaha. That could be part of it. do get a sense Indy likes Duncan. And surprisingly (to me to some degree) I actually think Duncan likes Indy. It is cool.

How are you feeling about this weekend? Using a toy to bring Indy out into the rest of the house? Playing with him, then feeding Indy in that room. Hopefully Duncan will just watch. Given the logistics issues I think we wont try to feed them both at the same time. You may need to distract Duncan. Then we would just end it and put Indy back. Then feed Duncan by the gate. How does that sound? It will be all about quality over quantity and it is a test for Duncan. To see how they interact. They passed in the rest of the house. So now it will be in Duncan's territory so the bar is a bit higher and an area where Indy probably feels less secure. So it is a big test. So being prepared is important.
 
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