Introducing a third & Mixed Signals

[Fasii]

Oh hi!
Completely new here and figured I’d try my hand at posting a thread to maybe get some opinions and advice on introductions progress. Forgive the lint

Back Story!
I live in a 3 bedroom home, and have 1 room blocked off for my NC (New cat) for home base.
I currently have two RC’s (Resident Cats)
Toph who is 9, the chunkiest, sweetest cat. She is absolutely play and food driven. Loves all people, and to be touched and loved on.
Ashe who is 5, she’s a sweet girl who is absolutely bonded to me, and a scaredy cat! Loud noises will have her bolting, moving too fast will have her bolting, etc. Not AT ALL play driven, but can be convinced with some treats (maybe). Shes

New kitty! Her name is Moira!
She is 4 years old, and was a stray mooost of her life, or in and out of homes because she was absolutely an escape artist. She’s FOR SURE play driven, and LOVES to cuddle.

How it’s going so far & Timeline:

We got NC (Officially) on 10/26!
She was all set up in her home base, door closed, with her own food, litter box, toys etc. There was of course some of the RCs toys in there, but she was just happy to have something to play with.
( I do believe we messed up and moved a bit fast through this next part, however we have back tracked since!)

We started their morning meals near the door, there was curiosity, even rubbing on the door, and lots of meowing and little circles of excitement to see what was on the other side. So we cracked the door.
Toph (RC) was sticking her paws underneath, and NC was excited to play. Ashe(RC) really didn’t care, wouldn’t avoid the door, but wasn’t trying to be all over it either.
A few days passed of this with no negative interactions so we decided to introduce them, while playing for a short while for distractions.
Toph and NC were able to play near each other perfectly fine! As soon as Toph would try and play with NCs toy though, she would hiss and smack Toph. Fortunately Toph isn’t a fighter and didn’t mind a bit and would just walk away.
Ashe kept to her own side of the living room just observing seeing as she’s not really food or play driven. She got plenty of love, but was comfortable from afar.
We put NC away, and did this again the next day for a bit longer. This time playing, but not the WHOLE time. This had Moira hissing much more, smacked Toph some more, and hissing/growling if Ashe entered the room.
Third times the charm, they were all in the living room sleeping in their separate areas! Ashe on the big cat tree, Moira on the couch, Toph on the ground. And completely unprompted, Ashe woke up and decided to attack NC. Fur FLEW! we separated them, and didn’t want to leave them with that association so the next day we tried again with more distractions.
same exact thing. Moira was sleeping after a long play session and Ashe saw her moment and attacked again.
I feel like this was our fault for pushing it maybe a bit too fast, so we’ve backtracked and started over.
(This was only over the course of a week and a half)

Fast forward to November 10th, Moira has been completely separated in her base camp. Door closed, living her best life. Wanting out so badly.
we decided to start cracking the door again, and even bought a screen door for full visuals but no touching!

Present day!

We’ve been feeding the kitties by the doors, and site swapping, playing, and giving treats! We switch from the cracked door to the screen, because I’ve noticed the screen lifting from the bottom a bit, and don’t want any accidents while we’re sleeping.
When Moira is in home base with the screen, Toph and Ashe hang out by her door just looking in. No growling, hissing, they may try and push their faces against the door to see if they can get in but that’s about it. Moira will watch them, but typically not get too close. Her tail is always up and curled pretty confidently, no helicopter ears either. They’ve come back to face through the screen multiple times, but nothing of mention happened.
But the weird thing, if we site swap and lock Moira in the bedroom with the door cracked to allow the other two to roam her base camp, Ashe LOVES to wait for Moira to come to the crack and swat and smack the crap out of her. No growling or hissing from either party, but some WWE type smacking!
The very LAST thing do mention before I leave it to you all to decode.. the other day I was in Base camp with Moira and I was playing video games not playing attention as Moira is usually curled up in my lap. I had the screen up, and Ashe wiggled her behind UNDER the screen and got into the room.
My attention was grabbed by some hissing from Moira, Ashe had backed her into a corner. No hissing from her, or growling, and still kind of kept her distance. As soon as I called Ashes name she snapped out of it and came to me tail up and happy to see me. I escorted her out of the room, and this is where we’re at.

So again… I’m so sorry for the long message, but I guess I’m trying to figure out what to do next without causing another fight.
Moira is the one who’s new and on guard, of course ready to hiss and swat at whoever.
Ashe turned scaredy cat to warrior, ready to throw down.
Toph who just wants another friend and her next meal.
Have I waited long enough? How should I proceed?
I appreciate it!!

 

[Kris107]

Smacking isn't necessarily a bad thing. I like that you called Ashe and distracted her when she was kind of in hunt mode. You don't want to reward Ashe for that behavior (stalking) though - so just watch that. But I think that maybe is where you can go. Help Ashe with how to be a good sibling - i.e. don't hunt the newbie. Not nice Ashe! Even mine, especially when they get wound up, can get a little too rough with each other (I might even find a little fur). So, I put myself physically between them and make them take a minute. Often, when they've had a minute to calm down they stop. Other times, I will remove one and do a short bedroom time out - just long enough for them to collect themselves. So... boundaries! What is okay play. What isn't. If a cat looks like they really aren't appreciating the interaction, then help the other one back off. That being said, if the "victim" cat re-engages, let them play a bit then. It's certainly hard to read the situations, but that's often what you have to do.

 

[Alldara]

Agreed with Kris! Swatting can also be a normal part of cat play. It can be hard to tell the difference but you sound like your good at watching the other aspects of the body language. Just interrupting that is good.

Hissing isn't aggression, its communication. It's saying "hey don't do that!" Or "too close!" It's good to use treats during this to teach each cat to back off.

You did the right thing when she got in. You broke the stare down and taught her to walk away. That's perfect. That's teaching Ashe that when someone hisses you walk away.

Keeping that screen up for site as much as possible is also great. If you can get them observing one another playing, that would help them. Also I would tart taking a worn shirt of yours and wiping each cat and then NC with it and then the baseboards. Get that shared family smell going.

Keep giving them things to "do" together and narrating what's happening to them. Like, "wow Ashe is sniffing you. Ashe wants to be friends." Chances are your cats know more human language than they do of one another's cat language, so narration helps to bridge that language gap. Right now your cats are new roomies whose only common language is your human one. (I live in a bilingual area so we actually had some hiccups because Cal came from a French foster and didn't know English when he arrived.)

 

[Fasii]

Smacking isn't necessarily a bad thing. I like that you called Ashe and distracted her when she was kind of in hunt mode. You don't want to reward Ashe for that behavior (stalking) though - so just watch that. But I think that maybe is where you can go. Help Ashe with how to be a good sibling - i.e. don't hunt the newbie. Not nice Ashe! Even mine, especially when they get wound up, can get a little too rough with each other (I might even find a little fur). So, I put myself physically between them and make them take a minute. Often, when they've had a minute to calm down they stop. Other times, I will remove one and do a short bedroom time out - just long enough for them to collect themselves. So... boundaries! What is okay play. What isn't. If a cat looks like they really aren't appreciating the interaction, then help the other one back off. That being said, if the "victim" cat re-engages, let them play a bit then. It's certainly hard to read the situations, but that's often what you have to do.

Thank you so much for the reply!
I definitely think that’s a huge concern of mine, seeing as Ashe isn’t play driven, and VERY RARELY food driven but a whole mama’s girl, I feel weird about interrupting a stare down or even some slapping with a sweet voice and love. Because I really don’t want to reward it, but she would almost always otherwise ignore me.
Im going to keep the screen up as much as possible, but leave the door only cracked if we’re not home to ensure no problems.
Otherwise do you have any recommendations on reintroducing?
I saw a comment on here that even recommended introducing Toph and NC by themselves and allow Ashe to watch through the screen. Seeing as they’re both play driven kitties, distractions should be easy.
or should I stick with just doing all three and monitor?

 

[Fasii]

Agreed with Kris! Swatting can also be a normal part of cat play. It can be hard to tell the difference but you sound like your good at watching the other aspects of the body language. Just interrupting that is good.

Hissing isn't aggression, its communication. It's saying "hey don't do that!" Or "too close!" It's good to use treats during this to teach each cat to back off.

You did the right thing when she got in. You broke the stare down and taught her to walk away. That's perfect. That's teaching Ashe that when someone hisses you walk away.

Keeping that screen up for site as much as possible is also great. If you can get them observing one another playing, that would help them. Also I would tart taking a worn shirt of yours and wiping each cat and then NC with it and then the baseboards. Get that shared family smell going.

Keep giving them things to "do" together and narrating what's happening to them. Like, "wow Ashe is sniffing you. Ashe wants to be friends." Chances are your cats know more human language than they do of one another's cat language, so narration helps to bridge that language gap. Right now your cats are new roomies whose only common language is your human one. (I live in a bilingual area so we actually had some hiccups because Cal came from a French foster and didn't know English when he arrived.)

Thank you so much for the reply and support! I can definitely be better with narrating my actions! I’ll for sure give that a go!
fortunately we’ve smell swapped quite often and none of the kitties seem to really care? I don’t know what I was expecting LOL but them rubbing on it, or sniffing it felt anti-climatic
I know hissing and swatting for the most part is usually just setting boundaries, I guess it’s just a bit scary knowing she’s vocalizing her feelings, vs. her previously just sleeping and getting the fluff knocked out of her. The unpredictability is crazy!
It’s like okay.. you’re telling me you’re uncomfortable so I should listen vs before when Ashe turned into a silent assassin!
I appreciate your help and input!!

 

[Alldara]

That's good about smell swapping. This worn-shirt trick is not for smell swapping. It's for making the cats smell like one another and building a joint territory smell by taking that new smell and putting it on the house to establish "this belongs to all of us together."

 

[Kris107]

I personally just monitor and always be there to run interference if needed. Help with the boundaries. Don't leave them unattended until you feel confident. You got this!

 

[Fasii]

That's good about smell swapping. This worn-shirt trick is not for smell swapping. It's for making the cats smell like one another and building a joint territory smell by taking that new smell and putting it on the house to establish "this belongs to all of us together."

Oooo!! Hadn’t heard this one before! Thanks a bunch! Definitely going to try this out!

 

[Fasii]

I personally just monitor and always be there to run interference if needed. Help with the boundaries. Don't leave them unattended until you feel confident. You got this!

Okay!
it’s been a little bit and I have an update!
We’ve been doing our best at a nightly routine of the three girls in the living room with treats, toys, ample distraction, and bonding time!
It’s been going okay!
Ashe our RC has been better about not hunting, and even passing by Moira the NC and not batting an eye. However, we have noticed a few things!

last night we took them all out together and things were going well! We noticed that when Moira leaves Ashes view, she goes into worry mode. Immediately starts almost prowling and looking for her.
because she hasn’t been aggressive, we decided to see what she did. She moved up on Moira kinda fast to which Moira then jumped up on the couch to evade and that was that! Ashe didn’t chase her but was curious! (It still feels like hunting, but she’s not acting)
But this next part is a bit more tough.

I took the word of advice and wanted to let Moira vocalize to Ashe if she was getting to close. A good hiss, few slaps wouldn’t hurt.

Moira was on our entertainment center only about a foot high, and Ashe closed in to investigate. Ashe perched up on her back paws, Moira hissed, the two slapped the crap out of each other, and Ashe backed down! Which was GREAT!
But the problem. You can tell Ashe was a bit.. scared or high stress immediately after?
Toph my other RC who is typically very peaceful, saw the hissing and smacking and ran up. Which then a stressed Ashe had Toph coming to investigate very quickly, had Ashe hiss and Smack Toph, and try and run away. But that’s the problem, Toph then proceeded to not leave Ashe alone, Ashe tried to remove herself and run away but Toph QUICKLY follows and almost invades her space backing her into multiple corners! Ashe and her now smacking each other, and Ashe hissing and doing the loud howling. Toph chased her under the bed (only Ashe can fit), I separated them, and Ashe was completely fine seconds later. Toph was ADAMENT on chasing her down, loud claps, noises, nothing would break her out of being pretty much completely ontop of

Tophs posture is strange because her ears are erect, she’s low to the ground, and moving very quickly. I’d say like.. hunting. But it almost feel like because Toph is the senior cat, she’s trying to break them up? Or put one or the other in their place?

the last thing I want is for a third cat to make my two girls who always get along start to fight.
and I finally feel like Ashe and Moira made a bit of progress in communicating with each other.

Should I let Toph intervene?
Should I stop trying to distract Ashe when she tries to investigate Moira? (Quickly)

 

[Kris107]

I'm glad there's progress! Here's my take on Tophs - it could be aggression triggered by the "kefuffle" or it could have been just a mature cat's "knock it off!". Toph chasing Ashe - you might want her to go in a time out if she won't let it go. The good news is that Ashe came out relatively quickly and fine. So that means Ashe wasn't overly bothered by Toph chasing her. In adding a 3rd cat, the relationships are bound to change. The dynamics are just going to be different. Are all the cats claws trimmed?

 

[Fasii]

Okay! That’s good to know!
Their claws are relatively trimmed when lots of hard scratching surfaces, but not manicured by us.

after Ashe went under the bed I closed the bedroom door to give Ashe some time to decompress, she came out perfectly fine a minute or so later.
at that moment we decided to end the interaction and put Moira back in home base.
I will follow exactly that and next time put Toph in a room to cool down for a bit.
Would you say when I put Toph up that I should let Moira and Ashe continue to interact, or end the interaction as a whole and put Moira back up and try again the next day?
Thanks for the help!!