I haven't taken the time to look at the math, and I am good at that. But I do know that one cat (at least one of mine) doesn't eat 1.25 cups of wet food a day (on an all wet diet), so they can't possibly need 1.25 cups of water.
I free feed the kibble, but it works for me. The autofeeders are an excellent tool to use and will also control how much your cat eats on a daily basis. If you've got cats that tend to overeat; I highly recommend them. I use the water fountains and my cats love them. I like the mixed diet of dry and wet because I know I've got the moisture issue covered AND my cats love their wet food "snacks" twice a day.Originally Posted by Ducman69
The one thing I do agree on is that its better to schedule feed dry than to free feed.
Dry can very easily be put in an autofeeder though, and remain perfectly fresh and sanitary, with nothing more needed than to wash the bowl once a day or every other day which just lifts right in and snaps into place. The Petmate I purchased allows you to control varying amounts of kibble released up to three times a day, and it exactly holds a 10lb bag of Wilderness kibble in the container. The container is not airtight, but reasonably close to it.
Wet does have a moisture advantage, but IMO a mixed diet with attractive water fountains easily meets a cat's required moisture needs. The studies regarding mild dehydration is typically done with simple bowls of water next to the food, which many cats are somewhat disinterested in, and an exclusive dry diet w/ no wet meals whatsoever.
Originally Posted by LDG
I haven't taken the time to look at the math, and I am good at that. But I do know that one cat (at least one of mine) doesn't eat 1.25 cups of wet food a day (on an all wet diet), so they can't possibly need 1.25 cups of water.
Pet food has been around for all of ~100 years. In the same time, cats are getting way more diseases...Originally Posted by Plebayo
Question for those who keep referencing the cat's digestive system. Cats have been domesticated for what... 9,000 years+? For the truly 'domestic' cat who is a mutt, that has been coming from generations and generations of kibble eating cats, are their digestive systems really set up the way they used to be, before cats started eating kibble?
This is actually a question that comes up a lot. I'm not anti raw food or anything. But it is a question I've always wondered. Our cats and our dogs are not wild, they live in houses, they don't roam [or for those who do, they don't roam like wild animals do]. I'm not saying that kibble was a good invention or anything but for the generations of animals being fed and raised on kibble can we really say their digestive systems are the same as they used to be?
I'm also not trying to take this off topic, but the argument for wet food [which I am a wet feeder btw] seems to be based off of what a cat would eat in the wild - even though our cats no longer live in the wild.
I want to see the proof that pet and farm cats were regularly vetted 100 years ago, let alone that the disease counter parts that have only been understood the last 20-30 years in humans absolutely were not around back then. I also want to know how pet food has caused the rise of FeLV in all cat populations - including wild big cats.Originally Posted by furryfriends50
Pet food has been around for all of ~100 years. In the same time, cats are getting way more diseases...
http://www.karlloren.com/Diabetes/p73.htm
Knowing this, how do we choose the best food to build, grow, regenerate, lubricate, soothe, cleanse and fuel us? First, we must look to other animals that eat correctly, instinctively, and are without degenerative disease. Animals who have lived their entire life without degenerative disease ate all of their food raw. In clinical tests by Dr. Francis M. Pottenger, Jr., M.D., animals fed raw foods had no degenerative disease, but animals that were fed cooked and processed food developed all of the diseases that plague mankind. Nomadic North American natives, including the Eskimo, mainly ate completely uncooked raw meat and ate plenty of raw fat, and lived without degenerative disease. Archeologists have discerned that as Native Americans began cultivating instead of hunting, relying on grain and fruit, they developed bone diseases, including dental decay. Then when whiteman brought them processed and cooked breads, sugars and alcohol, Natives developed all of the diseases that "civilized" mankind suffers, including heart diseases, cancer and diabetes. (click link for more)
http://good-times.cc.gt.atl.ga.us/in...Human_Diseases
Environmental degradation has shown an increasing relationship with the rise and spread of human diseases. Genes evolved and became more susceptible to disease to the evironmental impacts.(Rienzo, 2005) The World Health Organization believes that almost one third of global disease can be directly related to environmental risk factors. (United Nations)Antibodies and immune stystems have developed in part as a result of environmental change. As stated in a PNAS article "Environmental change plays a large role in the emergence of infectious disease". (Eisenberg, 2006) In particular, as the human population continues to grow, the population density increases, which leads to an abundance of parasites and infection-forming conditions. (Daily, 1996) Extreme temperatures, climate-related disturbances, and air and water pollution have a direct influence on the spread of infection and disease. (United States Environmental Protection Agency)
http://www.nafwa.org/general-nutriti...illing-us.html
According to the Atlantic:
"The purpose of ... ultra-processing is to create: durable, accessible, convenient, attractive, ready-to-eat or ready-to-heat products ... Monteiro argues: 'the rapid rise in consumption of ultra-processed food and drink products, especially since the 1980s, is the main dietary cause of the concurrent rapid rise in obesity and related diseases throughout the world.'"
http://www.healthy-eating-politics.c...food-diet.html
The Connection Between Food and Disease
The logic of the connection between food and disease is inescapable. Contemporary humans have been on the earth for about 200,000 years. During the majority of that time, humans have survived and thrived without the need for processed foods, medical interventions or prescription drugs.
It is only in the last 130 years that whole food nutrition has been replaced by junk processed foods. And it is during the last 130 years that epidemics of disease have become common in our populations. (click link for more)
http://www.copperwiki.org/index.php?...Processed_Food
Medical practitioners and nutritionists have done enough studies to prove that we are what we eat. These studies show that what we put in our bodies on a daily basis does affect the overall quality of life and our immune system. Even simple reactions such as heartburn, migraines, lactose intolerance could have a deeper meaning behind them. Eating a diet high in processed foods can lead to diabetes, and liver overload. (click link for more)
http://onlinenewswebsite.com/tag/hum...-gonadotropin/
The lead author of a study published in the Journal of the World Public Health Nutrition Association states, “The rapid rise in consumption of ultra-processed food and drink products, especially since the 1980’s, is the main dietary cause of the concurrent rapid rise in obesity and related diseases throughout the world.”
http://www.drsalzarulo.com/dr-pottingers-cats.html
In the 1940, a medical doctor named Dr Pottinger wanted to know how processed foods affected our health. He financed his own research, so he wasn't influenced by any big business interests to come up with certain results. Dr. Pottinger studied 900 cats over a period of several generations.
Dr. Pottinger divided his cats into 5 groups. The first two groups he fed raw food and they remained healthy throughout the experiment. These cats had good bone structure and density, wide palates with plenty of space for teeth, shiny fur, no parasites or disease, reproductive ease and gentleness. (click link for more)
"Feline diabetes is not the natural fate of hundreds of thousands of pet cats world-wide. It is, rather, a human-created disease that is reaching epidemic proportions because of the highly artificial foods that we have been feeding our feline companions for the past few decades. Without the constant feeding of highly processed, high carbohydrate dry foods, better suited to cattle than cats, adult-onset feline diabetes would be a rare disease, if it occured at all."http://www.human-rights-online.org/h...ing-habits.htm
Americans like NBC CEO are influenced by the advertising industry of food processing and continue to live with the habits of eating processed foods – meat or cereals. Many people in India believe that the eating habits of American are influenced by its leading food industry. Food industry spends millions in advertising to change the eating habits to processed foods. Agri-food sector in America is subsidized at a cost to taxpayers heavily to help its food processing industry. The dietary habits of eating processed foods are the main cause of many diseases and economic problems in America. . (click link for more)
http://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/cont...1/317.abstract
Feline leukaemia virus (FeLV) and feline immunodeficiency virus (FIV) are frequently encountered in domestic cats (Felis catus) and in wild felids, but only FeLV has been previously identified in wildcats (Felis silvestris). Thirty-eight wildcats, either captured alive or found dead, were sampled in eastern and central France. Nine of them (23.7 per cent) carried the FeLV p27 antigen, and three (7.9 per cent) had antibodies to FeLV. There was a significant relationship between two measures of body condition and FeLV status; the FeLV-positive cats being in poorer condition than the FeLV-negative cats. The results suggest that FeLV is common in wildcats and may increase mortality in this species. The FIV-positive results constitute the first indication of a Flv-related virus in wildcats.
http://www.bornfreeusa.org/facts.php?more=1&p=359
The idea that one pet food provides all the nutrition a companion animal will ever need for its entire life is a dangerous myth.
Today, the diets of cats and dogs are a far cry from the variable meat-based diets that their ancestors ate. The unpleasant results of grain-based, processed, year-in and year-out diets are common. Health problems associated with diet include: (click link for more)
What do you know, you hate raw feeders. So typicalOriginally Posted by strange_wings
The thing is so many of you raw feeders push it as the only way to feed a cat and it's simply not feasible for everyone to do this. I can't be the only one that feels like we're being attacked for feeding wet and a little dry.
It's not a matter of convenience, either. Not everyone has sources for the meat and a spare freezer for it. Of course there's grocery store/walmart quality meat full of chemicals... Yet others couldn't do it right and would cause major nutritional deficiencies.
But please do continue to tell all the rest of us how much we're mistreating our cats and abusing them. Maybe you'll convince some people who rescue and foster to stop since they're just abusing cats.
100 years ago there was next to no emphasis on cat health whatsoever. They weren't even kept as close pets in Western culture the way dogs are until fairly recently, and even in much of Europe today close monitoring of your cat via an indoor only environment is not that widespread. My British friends all let their cats come and go as they please.Originally Posted by furryfriends50
Pet food has been around for all of ~100 years. In the same time, cats are getting way more diseases...
Originally Posted by Ducman69
100 years ago there was next to no emphasis on cat health whatsoever. They weren't even kept as close pets in Western culture the way dogs are until fairly recently.
With my grandmother for example, you kept cats around to eat mice around the barn and fields, and you gave them a little additional food or treats at times (often milk which we know gives cats the runs but you wouldn't notice with an outdoor cat) and occasionally paid a little attention to them. By and far though, you didn't know if your cat had a UTI or any type of ailment, you really just noticed if one of the cats was limping or missing or not.
Twenty year old indoor cats are also a relatively modern phenomenon, and in the wild ferals have a life expectancy median of only four years eating raw food, hardly a model of ideal health.
So while i have nothing against a properly executed raw diet, the idea that it is the only way to go is IMO bogus.
Because you cannot leave out wet food, and it is 80% water which contains no calories. You can calorie control dry just the same as wet though. The only real difference is that you can't free-feed wet for unlimited calories a day up to the cat's discretion, but you can with dry.Originally Posted by Yosemite
For me, dry food is too fattening. Bijou was 24.6 lbs so I took away all dry food and went strictly to wet. Since last June when he was weighed by the vet at 24.6 lbs, he has lost weight on wet food only and is now 19.2 lbs.
While most dry is of limited benefit, penetrating kibble with the teeth up and down is still chewing, and there are multiple studies that have shown that the light abrasive effect mimics brushing in removing plaque. Mastication by exercising the jaws and gums also is said to contribute to dental health over soup like wet food which is essentially just licked up. Kibble can also be coated in STPP, which disolves in the saliva and helps reduce tartar.Originally Posted by Yosemite
Some folks believe that dry food helps clean the teeth - nonsense! Cats do not chew (i.e., their jaws only move up and down, not side to side to chew), they break large pieces of kibble with the tip of the tooth and swallow which does nothing to help plaque. If I eat a mouthful of beef stew (wet food) it would leave little residue on my teeth but if I ate a dry cracker (kibble), when it mixed with my saliva it would get all mucky and stay in all the crevices in my teeth.
No one escapes the ravages of time…Originally Posted by Carolina
Yep, with age comes disease... it is a give and take IMHO.
Oh, I am sure there is...Originally Posted by strange_wings
No one escapes the ravages of time…
As for "feral diet". A domestic cat, even living as a feral, will always be a domestic cat given the chance. Meaning: they eat a lot of food refuse we humans create. If you want to talk about dangerous meals, there's one that can cut a life short pretty quickly.
You have taken away the best lesson which is not that wet food trumps dry food in all things (even though it's closer to a natural food supply than kibble), but rather taking care to feed your cats with as much nutritional value and least detriment as you should be feeding yourself.Originally Posted by lostmary
wow, so much information. I appreciate everyone who replied. I can see so many sides of feeding my kids that is could be hard to figure out. My outdoor only kids are going to stay on dry only, plus all the good things they get from nature. my indoor/outdoor cats get the normal outdoor cat food, plus I keep a bowl of premium dry food out for when they are in. For my inside girls, they are looking so smooth (actually all of them shine like glass), and have bright eyes, clear, normal smelling pee and solid poop, that I think I will keep them on the dry free feed, and a small can of wet every evening. Both of my indoor only girls drink a lot of water. I didn't know that it wasn't always the case for all cats. For as much as I know about my dogs and horses, I'm such a beginner when it comes to my cats. I haven't had a chance to research some of the links I was direct to, but I promise that I will. I want to do what is best for them, keeps them the healthiest and happiest that they can be.
thank you all
Mary
I think if you really did some good research you would find that there are only a couple of dry foods that "claim" to help tartar and even then I am suspect. Common sense really does prevail in this instance for me and others since cats don't "penetrate" the kibble. They break the kibble with the TIP of the tooth which does nothing to help tartar at the gum line.Originally Posted by Ducman69
Because you cannot leave out wet food, and it is 80% water which contains no calories. You can calorie control dry just the same as wet though. The only real difference is that you can't free-feed wet for unlimited calories a day up to the cat's discretion, but you can with dry.
I don't have to leave it out. When I feed wet food he goes and eats it all just as we would a meal so it never stays around long enough to go stale. Free-feeding dry food was what got him fat in the first place.
While most dry is of limited benefit, penetrating kibble with the teeth up and down is still chewing, and there are multiple studies that have shown that the light abrasive effect mimics brushing in removing plaque. Mastication by exercising the jaws and gums also is said to contribute to dental health over soup like wet food which is essentially just licked up. Kibble can also be coated in STPP, which disolves in the saliva and helps reduce tartar.
That is not to say that wet doesn't have inherent advantages as well, which is why I prefer to feed a mixed diet.
To put it entirely in the anecdotal arena, none of my cats has ever had a tooth problem, and they have all eaten primarily dry food.Originally Posted by Yosemite
I think if you really did some good research you would find that there are only a couple of dry foods that "claim" to help tartar and even then I am suspect. Common sense really does prevail in this instance for me and others since cats don't "penetrate" the kibble. They break the kibble with the TIP of the tooth which does nothing to help tartar at the gum line.