Ibd ? Hiding

[Allyocean]

I have

 

[daftcat75]

Lymphoma is usually marked by rapid and relentless weight loss; not just a failure to gain. You won’t miss it. But weighing weekly can help you catch it earlier. Krista went from 8 or 9 lbs to 5 lbs in just a few months. She was under 4 when she passed. Her weight loss only stopped with chemo. Pre-lymphoma, she ate about six ounces a day. After her IBD progressed to lymphoma, she was eating 8 oz a day (thanks to steroids) and still losing weight. If Max isn’t losing weight, and a half pound over months doesn’t count, it’s probably not lymphoma yet.

 

[artiemom]

I will have to chime in here. Geoffrey did to have any weight loss. Chronic vomiting is a sign of both IBD and Lymphoma.

I think if there IS weight loss, lymphoma will be at a deeper level. Geoffreys is a level II..

I did suspect IBD, just from my previous experience with Artie. I immediately put Geoffrey on a novel protein diet.. prescription. Yes, my vets went along with me, for the script. Perhaps that is why he did not lose weight? Who Knows?
There is still so much that we do not understand.

 

[daftcat75]

I will have to chime in here. Geoffrey did to have any weight loss. Chronic vomiting is a sign of both IBD and Lymphoma.

I think if there IS weight loss, lymphoma will be at a deeper level. Geoffreys is a level II..

I did suspect IBD, just from my previous experience with Artie. I immediately put Geoffrey on a novel protein diet.. prescription. Yes, my vets went along with me, for the script. Perhaps that is why he did not lose weight? Who Knows?
There is still so much that we do not understand.

I think you caught Geoffrey early. If you had let it continue without the chemo and the diet change, you would have seen the ravaging weight loss.

 

[Allyocean]

Lymphoma is usually marked by rapid and relentless weight loss; not just a failure to gain. You won’t miss it. But weighing weekly can help you catch it earlier. Krista went from 8 or 9 lbs to 5 lbs in just a few months. She was under 4 when she passed. Her weight loss only stopped with chemo. Pre-lymphoma, she ate about six ounces a day. After her IBD progressed to lymphoma, she was eating 8 oz a day (thanks to steroids) and still losing weight. If Max isn’t losing weight, and a half pound over months doesn’t count, it’s probably not lymphoma yet.

I don't know how to thank you! You have helped ease my spiraling thoughts. Coming from someone that has so much knowledge ( unfortunately) assures me you understand what I'm going through and can relate similar experiences. That's Huge!
Much gratitude

 

[daftcat75]

I don't know how to thank you! You have helped ease my spiraling thoughts. Coming from someone that has so much knowledge ( unfortunately) assures me you understand what I'm going through and can relate similar experiences. That's Huge!
Much gratitude

As artiemom said, it could still be lymphoma without the weight loss. But because biopsy, whether endo or surgical comes with a risk of complication (even a healthy five year old like Betty was off for a week after her "minimally invasive" endo), I don't recommend a biopsy for a cat that is not stable. Regardless of which one this is, pancreatitis is a bigger problem.

I'm not certain how much stock I put into allergy testing. It seems to me that just about anything that shouldn't be in the bloodstream that appears in the bloodstream is going to cause a reaction. One of the leading theories about IBD is that the gut dysbiosis (imbalances and overgrowth) changes the permeability of the gut membrane making it more likely that food particles in various stages of digestion will cross through into the bloodstream. This is the "leaky gut" theory. If his gut is already leaky, I don't know that any food will escape an immune response. What to do then? Suppressing the immune system with steroids and/or chemotherapy should help limit the inflammation response. Combine this with a novel protein (any protein he hasn't had) and that may buy you enough time for the gut to start to heal. FMT (AnimalBiome's Gut Restore) is a very exciting alternative or complement to steroids. On the one paw, you're quieting the immune reaction, and on the other, you're actually addressing the gut dysbiosis. I think metro/tylsoin will be indiscriminate housecleaners while the GMP and the Gut Restore will help re-build the populations with more useful strains. I'm not entirely certain whether Gut Restore will get you anywhere while he's taking an antibiotic. But he should absolutely be taking the Gut Maintenance during this time to prevent unfriendly strains from filling the void the antibiotics are creating.

Honestly, I'm spitballing all this. I have a biochem education and I've had a couple of cats with IBD. I read a lot. But I'm not a vet. I don't even use that biochem degree professionally. It just means I sound smarter than I probably am about all this. Take all of this in the spirit it was given: an internet stranger trying to be helpful.

My recommendations:

1. Open the dialog again with AnimalBiome and ask them whether Gut Restore should be put on hold until he's off antibiotics.

2. Get the GMP pills. Some cats like the yeast taste and you can get them to eat it mixed with food. Some don't. If he doesn't like the taste mixed with food, I recommend getting size four gelatin capsules and repacking the size 3's the GMP come in into size 4's. The larger the number, the smaller the capsule. Size 3 is a bit large for a cat. I got a size 4 capsule filling machine off Etsy and the size 4 capsules from Amazon. You can repack a bottle of GMP fairly quickly with the capsule filling machine. Plan on giving him one of the size 4's a day until you've finished the bottle.

3. This should be number one. Pancreatitis is your priority right now. You aren't going to get very far with anything else until this one is addressed. Cerenia will help with pancreatitis. You may need other supporting drugs too.

4. If you aren't already, feed him smaller meals more often. Smaller meals will be less load and easier to handle. I fed Krista between six and eight meals a day to get her through pancreatitis. Betty gets five meals a day.

5. You may need a high steroids dose to start just to shut that immune system up long enough to get him on the healing track. Just make sure you don't leave him on a high steroids dose. That can cause other problems down the road. Talk to the vet about this. You may also want to discuss, "at what point should we try adding chemotherapy in?" Some difficult IBD cases are treated with chemotherapy without a cancer diagnosis. Chemo sounds scary. But it's probably less risk than steroids and certainly less risk than a surgical biopsy. Endoscopic biopsy seems like a roll of the dice depending on whether the endo can reach or the pinch biopsy can take a meaningful sample.

6. If you can find novel proteins by themselves, e.g. some rabbit meat without all the other ingredients that make it into cat food, you can try your own "allergy testing." Eating a protein is not the same thing as a skin prick test. I would see if you can get a chub of rabbit grind (or another protein he's never had before) from a place like Hare Today and offer him very small amounts at first. See how feels. Does he throw up? Does he hunch in pain? It may be that whatever the skin prick tests says he's allergic to is not really a food allergy. Meat alone is not complete. But if you find a protein he likes that seems to do well with him, there are supplement powders to make the meat into a complete food.

7. If he's eating any dry food, you should try your damnedest to remove all dry food. There's just too many problematic ingredients in dry food and it does a number on the gut biome. Plus dry food and pancreatitis are pretty much incompatible. Carbs aren't digested well in healthy cats. But an inflamed pancreatitis is not going to do well with the carb content. Also, carbs feed a lot of those unhelpful strains that cause gut dysbiosis.

Well, that's enough for now.

 

[Allyocean]

I thank you for all the insights.
So far the steroids and tylosin were a disaster sp that has left us with metro and not sure if it works.
After removing all kibble doing a homemade diet, fingers crossed we are on the right track. I am feeding him 6-8 small meals since he is always hungry it helps me portion a bit better.
I did speak with animalbiome and they told me what is obvious. After pancreatitis resoves they suggest forgoing metro and only doing the gut restore.because he cycles with vomit constipation and diahrrea they recommend not using s boullardi plus.
After gathering more info from y'all I do feel like the biopsy isn't a great idea. The chemo option is one the internist is on-board with. I'm now wondering if he had been experiencing this bout of pancreatitis longer than I'm aware and I've been going at his symptoms as if it were IBD.
I was overwhelmed but feel a bit more focused and a tad less alone!