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Ibd? Constipated Cat. After The Enema...

Discussion in 'Cat Health' started by sidneykitty, Jan 26, 2019.

  1. daftcat75

    daftcat75 TCS Member Top Cat

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    Shreds are more palatable than pates for a lot of cats. But a lot of cats just lick the gravy off shreds. Pates do a better job of encouraging uniform intake of nutrition. Plus they are denser. You would have to feed more shredded food to equal the same calories in a pate. Tiki Cat Ahi Tuna has 26 calories per ounce. Rawz Turkey has 36 calories per ounce. I have, on occasion, mixed Tiki Cat shredded tuna food with Rawz turkey pate to encourage her to eat the pate. Sometimes this backfires and she only eats the tuna. More frequently, I top her food with fish flakes. She likes the Rawz well enough but sometimes needs more encouragement to finish a plate. She doesn't understand how important it is for her weight gain that she finishes plates. When she gets back to a healthier weight, she can leave some behind if she wants to.
     
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  2. sidneykitty

    sidneykitty Thread Starter TCS Member Alpha Cat

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    Sometimes she'd just lick the gravy but she generally actually ate the bits of meat, too. After a lot of trial, she loved Paw Lickin Chicken, La Isla Bonita and Mack and Jack. I started her on wet food with BFF. They were the only ones she'd eat but I worried it was too much tuna. And yes, they are also pretty low cal.

    Its a shame most of Weruva's foods contain chicken or tuna. I guess why they're more appleaing to her. I tried Bonito Flakes many times and she wasn't into it. With the pates, what I've noticed is she just licks and licks forever and I think she's eating a lot because of how long she is at the bowl for, but then I look at the bowl and she's hardly made a dent in it.

    I just wish there was a shredded beef or lamb food! But it must be shredded, not minced, not morsels, just shredded Amber says.
     

  3. daftcat75

    daftcat75 TCS Member Top Cat

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    When was the last time Amber's teeth were checked? Texture preferences don't necessarily mean dental issues but a preference for gravy or an aversion for chewing could point that way. You might say, "well, she still eats her dry." But does she? Does she chew it or does she give it a few bites and then swallow it still mostly whole?

    Sorry. I'm paranoid about dental issues because it has been behind so much of Krista's disordered eating. Whenever we fixed her teeth, the texture preferences went away.

    That Amber likes red meat is huge. You can pick up a pound of ground bison or lamb in the frozen section** of most higher end grocery stores. Run the sealed package under cold water for 5 or 10 minutes. That should be long enough to carve off a corner with a knife. Put this in a plastic baggie and run it under lukewarm water until it's room temperature or lukewarm itself. If Amber likes this, you can get a premix like Alnutrin or EZ Complete to make this nutritionally complete. You don't have to get a big food-making operation going to get her an occasional raw meal. Besides all the benefits that come from raw, you get to control the ingredients and the texture.

    There's three or four different frozen boneless red meat options (lamb, bison, venison, wild boar) at my local Sprout's if Krista would just eat red meat. :(

    **I don't trust the refrigerated section. They package the meat with gases to make it look fresher than it is. They want to sell old meat. Their goals are at ends with mine.
     

  4. sidneykitty

    sidneykitty Thread Starter TCS Member Alpha Cat

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    Well, you know I did think about that. They said her teeth were "excellent" in January, but I'm not sure how close they looked. She definitely chews it, I can hear her crunching it but maybe I'll try taking a peek. All the staff at the vet seemed kind of nervous to have a calico cat in the office even though she's super sweet and gentle. Never had a problem at the vet with her. Oh those calico stereotypes...

    Don't apologise! I appreciate suggestions. I know from past experience how much dental health can impact other things.

    That's really good to know if we decide to go down this route. I offered her some raw rabbit tonight, but she was NOT into it. We'll try again but I'm not going to push it too much. I just thought if it enticed her, I could put it on top of the wet food.
     

  5. daftcat75

    daftcat75 TCS Member Top Cat

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    What kind of raw rabbit was it? Some of the freezer stuff is just as bad as the cans (looking at you, Instinct!) and Krista's not really interested in the rehydrated freeze-dried like Stella and Chewy's. Back when she was still eating raw, I could usually get her to take a few bites of the raw meat or the recipe in progress. Or if I felt adventurous enough to do a batch without running it past her first, then the first portion would go to her, the "distract-a-snack", so that she would be content enough to leave me alone while I portion out the rest. I'd really like to get back to making her food. At least part time.
     

  6. sidneykitty

    sidneykitty Thread Starter TCS Member Alpha Cat

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    It was Stella & Chewy's frozen rabbit.

    Because she seems to like the pouches of wet food on top of the pate, I'm looking for non-chicken and non-tuna containing ones I can use to entice her to eat the pate. Its hard to find any. Do you think there would be any problem using a pouch for dogs? I'm seeing lamb and beef options there, with no tuna or chicken, which is what we need if we are going to eliminate her old proteins completely.

    I mean its basically the same thing as the cat pouches, right? Its just a layer going on top, its not her main meal and its mostly meat and sauce its just a dog on the package instead of a cat.
     

  7. daftcat75

    daftcat75 TCS Member Top Cat

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    As long as you keep it within the 10% treat budget, I don't see why you couldn't feed a dog pouch. But if you were relying on it for nutrition, it may not have the right balance for a cat.
     

  8. sidneykitty

    sidneykitty Thread Starter TCS Member Alpha Cat

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    Definitely less than 10%. Just a thin layer on top of her pate. It seems to really entice her to eat her wet food. Right now, she's getting the BFF Tuna & Lamb or Beef & Tuna, but I want to eliminate the tuna eventually. What do you think of these options?

    I'm looking at Instinct Healthy Cravings Grain free lamb pouch (dog): Lamb Broth, Lamb, Beef, Beef Liver, Eggs, Ground Dried Peas, Natural Flavor, Sodium Phosphate, Guar Gum, Salt, Sodium Carbonate, DL-Methionine

    Instinct LID lamb topper (dog): Lamb Broth, Lamb, Lamb Liver, Ground Dried Chickpeas, Guar Gum, Natural Flavor, Sodium Phosphate, Salt, Sodium Carbonate

    Instinct Ultimate protein beef topper (dog): Beef, Beef Broth, Lamb Broth, Beef Liver, Egg Whites, Ground Dried Peas, Eggs, Sodium Phosphate, Guar Gum, Salt, Sodium Carbonate

    There are multiple potential irritants in both, but I'm thinking at least its not tuna or chicken, proteins she's had lots of before.

    I did also find a Merrick Backcountry Beef cuts for cats: Beef, Beef Broth, Lamb Broth, Beef Liver, Deboned Lamb, Dried Egg Whites, Potato Starch, Natural Flavor, Guar Gum, Sodium Phosphate, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Taurine, Calcium Carbonate, Salmon Oil (Preserved With Mixed Tocopherols), Choline Chloride, Minerals (Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Sodium Selenite, Potassium Iodide), Sodium Carbonate, Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Niacin Supplement, D-Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Folic Acid), Inulin, Rosemary Extract
     

  9. daftcat75

    daftcat75 TCS Member Top Cat

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    I think the first one is probably the cleanest but they all have the potential to irritate as you said. The biggest offenders I see are peas, chickpeas, and guar gum.

    I like to use bonito flakes because those are Krista's favorite but also because they are basically just protein. And you can't get more limited ingredient than one ingredient. I put the flakes out for her throughout her trees to encourage her to hunt, to keep her active, to get her appetite stimulated, and for me to assess how well she's moving, and her attitude (eager or mopey?) At the bottom of every bag (more like the last 1/3 of the bag) is more powdered flakes than whole flakes. It's this powder that I put in a jar and dust over her food if she hasn't finished her portion. I'm lucky that she's been making 2/3 to 3/4 progress on her own before I have to encourage a clean plate.

    Fish aside, I like Vital Esssentials, Pure Vita, PureBites, and NW Naturals freeze dried treats. I have a mortar and pestle but I suppose a spice grinder, a coffee grinder, or a fist and a baggie would also work. I hand grind the treats into a fine powder and then put those in small jars. I will top food with a fine dusting of one of those treats if I want to step it up from fish flakes. The ones that are most popular with Krista are turkey liver and duck liver. But because they are liver, I have to go easy on them if I don't want poop soup.

    I save the pouch toppers--and really none of them agree with Krista but the Tiki Tuna Mousse topper (not the Velvet Mousse food) disagrees with her the least--for emergency situations like when she isn't eating and none of the other toppers are working. Although I also realized after this most recent round of dental pain, that Tiki Cat tuna foods work as well as the mousse and don't mousse up her stools.
     

  10. sidneykitty

    sidneykitty Thread Starter TCS Member Alpha Cat

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    Yes I was thinking the same. I picked up a few dog beef and lamb toppers, a few cat rabbit and beef toppers, and some freeze dried as well. I now feel fully equipped for toppers. I like to be ready in case of emergency, I guess.

    Sounds like the containers of crushed temptations I used to have for her! I've done the same with her kibble so I have a bag of crushed kibble handy, but I'll do some treats, too. I'm so glad someone else has weird containeres of crushed cat food, too!

    Sadly Bonito flakes never hit it off with Amber. But at least now I have a couple different options of LID toppers to pick from whereas before I only had rabbit or crushed z/d.

    Good news - Amber's weekly weight stayed stable. She didn't lose in the last week! I'm so happy!! Next step, gaining, but we'll take it a little at a time. :)
     

  11. sidneykitty

    sidneykitty Thread Starter TCS Member Alpha Cat

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    Things were going well for a while and we had her on restricted diet, but then she went three days without eating wet food so I caved and gave her tuna and salmon. Its like everything is a domino effect. If she doesn't eat wet food, she doesn't get her Miralax and other supplements, then she doesn't poop, then she has less of an appetite, then she won't eat wet food and the cycle continues.

    I feel like I'm in a battle between giving her wet food to help move things along to prevent constipation vs. feeding her the restricted IBD diet. To get her to eat wet food consistently it seems like I have to give her some protein she's had before, but to help the IBD she's not supposed to have it...

    The vet strongly felt it was not IBD and said her vomiting episodes were likely due to constipation not IBD. I'm sort of second guessing it all now and wondering if we should keep trying with the restricted diet in case she does have IBD or just try to give her any wet food she likes...

    Then I think if she doesn't have IBD but gets it later, is feeding her these novel proteins now doing more harm than good since we'll have fewer choices later? I guess the only way to know is to biopsy and I'm not sure I want to do that to her especially with no actual evidence of IBD on the ultrasound.

    She's due for her 6-month senior checkup in April. Maybe we'll keep trying until then and see how things are going. I just feel like we're never going to get her on a restricted diet at this rate, but I'll keep trying for now. Maybe 2 months isn't that long we've been trying to do this change. I guess I'm thinking is it better for her to eat wet food, any wet food, or better for her to have LID?
     

  12. daftcat75

    daftcat75 TCS Member Top Cat

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    Is her weight stable and has she been vomiting or having diarrhea? If yes and no respectively, then you probably don't need to try so hard with the restrictive diet.

    Don't fall for LID on the label. Just look for meat, moisture, organs, and supplements. View everything else in the recipe with suspicion. Not every cat will have a reaction to the various vegetables, starches, grains, or gums in cat foods, but if you have one or more of each in your recipe, you'll never be able to determine what caused a reaction if your cat is reactive from that food. The reason you want LID is so that you can reduce the nonsense and make detective work easier. If you can find two foods that differ only by the gums they use for binder and your cat reacts to one but not the other, then you can make a reasonable assumption that the gum is to blame and you can avoid that gum in other foods.

    If it's not IBD, feeding novel proteins now won't burn them out for later. Though if those proteins don't work out for her now, they can encourage the development of IBD. My guideline is to find two or three safe, non-reactive proteins, and rotate between them. That way if there is one more problematic than another, you're spreading out the risk. Strength through diversity. Three should be sufficient. If you have more, you can rotate one in and one out of the three. It's my observation that cats with too many choices become choosy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2019

  13. sidneykitty

    sidneykitty Thread Starter TCS Member Alpha Cat

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    Last weight check, her weight was stable. She's due for another weigh-in tomorrow so we'll see but I'm not holding my breath based on how little wet food she ate Thu-Sat last week.

    Her last vomit if you can call it that was Feb 23 - it was undigested kibble so I guess she ate too fast. Other than that, no vomitting.

    No diarrhea at all. The only time in her life she had diarrhea was after her enema in January and one day back in October. I remember I fed her a new food the night before that October diarrhea - BFF chicken and tuna so I never fed it again.

    How often do IBD cats vomit? How often is vomiting deemed chronic vomiting?

    After her salmon last night mixed on top of her Hound and Gatos beef she had a stellar A++ poop today. Seriously don't know if I've ever seen her have such a good poop.

    Yes in looking at LID foods I've seen quite a few with some really odd ingredients and some with chicken which is very annoying.

    This might sound crazy but the wet food she ate before all contained Sunflower Seed Oil so I'm avoiding anything containing it. Its the only ingredient they all had in common and was pretty high up in the list.

    Example: Weruva Paw Lickin Chicken
    Chicken (Boneless, Skinless Breast), Chicken Broth, Potato Starch, Sunflower Seed Oil, Calcium Lactate, Xanthan Gum, Tricalcium Phosphate, Choline Chloride, Taurine, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Ferrous Sulfate, Nicotinic Acid (Vitamin B3), Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Calcium Pantothenate, Copper Sulfate, Riboflavin Supplement (Vitamin B2), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Vitamin A Supplement, Manganese Sulfate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid, Potassium Iodide, Sodium Selenite, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement

    The BFF Tuna & Chicken also had it high up:
    Tuna, Water Sufficient For Processing, Chicken (Boneless, Skinless Breast), Sunflower Seed Oil, Calcium Lactate, Locust Bean Gum, Guar Gum, Choline Chloride, Tricalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Taurine, Vitamin E Supplement, Zinc Sulfate, Nicotinic Acid (Vitamin B3), Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Ferrous Sulfate, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Supplement, Manganese Sulfate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Riboflavin Supplement (Vitamin B2), Potassium Iodide, Folic Acid, Copper Sulfate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (Source Of Vitamin K), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement

    I guess the potato starch could be an issue, too, but wasn't in all the flavors she had so I'll try to keep that out of her food as well.

    I guess stickng with the Hound and Gatos she likes (sometimes!) is a good plan, then, they have very few possible irritants. Now she loves her Fancy Feast Salmon so maybe I can continue trying to use that on top of/mixed in with the other wet foods...
     

  14. daftcat75

    daftcat75 TCS Member Top Cat

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    Even once a week can be inflammatory. Krista was vomiting daily or almost daily when I was feeding her Purina Beyond Grain Free. Now she almost never vomits. If she does it's either a hairball or I overreacted to a not-eating and fed her something I knew she would eat but possibly not great for her.

    If it went down willingly, stayed down, and came out perfect, that's my gold standard. This is what I would feed her and call it a day. Or rather, call this your safe space. This will be the foundation for your rotation. You can rotate in guest stars into a single meal, at first, as you want to and need to. If she does well with that single meal, you can rotate in another guest star or you can make the guest star the lead for awhile. Krista gets Rawz turkey all the time. Sometimes I try to rotate in a duck or rabbit can and she's "meh!" But when the turkey comes back, look out!
     
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  15. sidneykitty

    sidneykitty Thread Starter TCS Member Alpha Cat

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    Hmm. With Amber it seems to be twice a month lately at the most. And hopefully I don't jinx it now!

    Thanks for your advice and sharing your experiences! I feel like you've become my IBD support person and I'm sorry I've posted so much. I have anxiety and I tend to worry about every little thing and things that will potentially never happen or are really far into the future, too. So I start to think if she isn't eating her proper diet food now, in 6 months she's going to have cancer and die so I just need to remember to stop and take it one day at a time. But I've found that my cats are/have been really good at reminding me to do just that!

    Amber's doing better than she was so that's great! And that's the most important thing I need to remember. Its not the end of the world if she doesn't eat wet food for one night. I'm also really glad to see Krista is doing better. You two went through quite an ordeal recently!
     
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  16. sidneykitty

    sidneykitty Thread Starter TCS Member Alpha Cat

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    Sigh. I'm back. :( Amber has been doing really well since the start of March. She's been eating well, eating all her wet food up to 3/4 of a can per day (!), got up to 3.8kg and stayed stable there for a month.

    Just over the last week, I've noticed her appetite decline and I become worried right away she might be getting constipated again. Her weight dropped to 3.75kg in a week. I thought when she got her weekly B12 shot Friday, she might get more of an appetite, but it hasn't made a difference.

    So Amber fell off the IBD diet wagon (as I call it) again because she wouldn't eat her restricted foods and I want her to eat something. So she got some tuna, some salmon and I even caved and gave her a little of her old kibble... I feel bad about failing her diet, but I'd rather she ate. Then this little voice in the back of my head says, they don't even know if she has IBD. Once we finally got there, we managed the restricted diet for 6 weeks.

    Ironically, I had booked her in for a 6-month check up a while ago and its tomorrow. It might turn into more of a why is she inappetant than a check-up at this stage. :/ I don't know what changed and I'm worried. She started eating less of her kibble before she went off her other food, which surprised me since she's such a kibble lover.
     
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  17. Furballsmom

    Furballsmom Cat Fan especially Black Cats Staff Member Forum Helper

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    :vibes::grouphug2: :hugs:
     
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  18. FeebysOwner

    FeebysOwner TCS Member Top Cat

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    Good timing for the vet visit. Amber can have her exam and some time for you to ask other questions related to more current events. No reason it has to be one or the other. Be a 'pig' about your time with the vet if you have to - trust me, others do it.

    You might want to write down a list of questions that you want to pursue with the vet so that nothing that is bothering you gets lost.
     
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  19. 1 bruce 1

    1 bruce 1 TCS Member Top Cat

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    At this stage I say let her eat what she wants in small quantities.
    One of our girls has been acting up with this, and she has a very minor history with it. I'm hoping her age isn't catching up with her and slowing down the pipes :(
    It sucks to worry like this for us, but if you look up "worrier" in Websters it'll mention me and I can tell you that 99% of the time I worry over stuff like this, things turn out A-OK :hellocomputer:
     
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  20. sidneykitty

    sidneykitty Thread Starter TCS Member Alpha Cat

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    Thanks, @Furballsmom :)

    @FeebysOwner - No worries, I will. I have no problem being "that person" taking up the vet's time on my senior cat. :) I tend to ask a lot of questions. Then more questions. Then I call with more questions... We're seeing a different doctor than before tomorrow, so we'll see how that goes.

    No @1 bruce 1 I think you'll find my name under "worrier" in the dictionary! That is true, though, I actually reflect back and realised that last time I was worrying about her. I said, hey, you know I was really worried about this but it all ended up fine! So why did I worry? Its just what I do...so thanks for reminding me of that. and yeah sometimes I think you know she is almost 15, might as well just let her eat what she wants to eat and then she'll be a happy kitty!

    I was planning for a full blood and urine tomorrow as well as a BP check. Also want them to give her teeth a good look. I guess its better timing for her to be like this than after I take her in for a checkup!
     
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