I Have More Trust Issues Than This Feral..

[Jcatbird]

The first round, Charlie won. The second round is harder to judge since it went beyond what we could see or hear. I think Finn nipped him about midway on his back. Noting much but maybe a blow to pride? I also feel that in spite of the tussles, Charlie wants Finn out. They may push each other’s buttons and Finn still needs to be isolated if you leave but I truly think that Charlie looks forward to having Finn around. Chirping is something usually done to kittens. Some of what Charlie does is similar to being a parent. He is calling Finn, teaching him and even disciplining. Finn is more like the rebellious teenager. Maybe Charlie just wants to get Finn properly in line. Lol I see this when I bring younger cats into the mix. Wanda Heart is younger than Finn but the girls she lives with still get a little fed up with her antics at times and give her a swat or a hiss. Alley and Liberty will quickly put her in her place. Callie has more patience. Tortuga is more likely to act as playmate. Wanda Heart seems oblivious to discipline most of the time but once in awhile she runs to me to tattle on one of the others. It’s very much like raising a family.

 

[Buffster7]

The first round, Charlie won. The second round is harder to judge since it went beyond what we could see or hear. I think Finn nipped him about midway on his back. Noting much but maybe a blow to pride? I also feel that in spite of the tussles, Charlie wants Finn out. They may push each other’s buttons and Finn still needs to be isolated if you leave but I truly think that Charlie looks forward to having Finn around. Chirping is something usually done to kittens. Some of what Charlie does is similar to being a parent. He is calling Finn, teaching him and even disciplining. Finn is more like the rebellious teenager. Maybe Charlie just wants to get Finn properly in line. Lol I see this when I bring younger cats into the mix. Wanda Heart is younger than Finn but the girls she lives with still get a little fed up with her antics at times and give her a swat or a hiss. Alley and Liberty will quickly put her in her place. Callie has more patience. Tortuga is more likely to act as playmate. Wanda Heart seems oblivious to discipline most of the time but once in awhile she runs to me to tattle on one of the others. It’s very much like raising a family.

Ah, I see. So maybe I should REALLY try to let them go until I hear screams and pray it doesn't reach that point and that they get it sorted out before. I do think Charlie's feelings or pride are a little hurt and that he really wants to be friends. He and Finn just can't seem to get their wants lined up at the same time. Thank you so much for your very valuable input, Jcatbird!

 

[pearl99]

Ah, I see. So maybe I should REALLY try to let them go until I hear screams and pray it doesn't reach that point and that they get it sorted out before. I do think Charlie's feelings or pride are a little hurt and that he really wants to be friends. He and Finn just can't seem to get their wants lined up at the same time. Thank you so much for your very valuable input, Jcatbird!

I think they will get to a living arrangment and understanding .
It took my two kitties months to work things out, so that may happen. Got Waffles at 2 years old August of 2016, he had been semi-feral- he came from a shelter. Then June of 2018 got Mooshoo as a 3 month old kitten from the same shelter, she was in a litter from a home. Once Mooshoo got older and bigger and they were tussling there was play and dominance scuffles, chasing, pouncing, swatting, rassling; some borderline fighting; hissing by Mooshoo, more than once she would yell- no damage. It took some months of this with them figuring things out. And in that time they would really play and have a good time.
Mooshoo would get disgusted because whenever she was in one of Waffles' "spots" he would come over and make her leave and she'd glare for awhile. She started standing up and refusing to move which meant swats back and forth, hisses, her ears flat back, Waffles trying to rassle her out of a spot, then peace started to break out and they'd stop the argument just like that. Waffles would give up, and over the last months they are pretty peaceful and still play well. I think they like each other. Seems they've figured themselves out. But they don't snuggle up and sleep right next to each other.
So that's why I think yours are doing well!

 

[Buffster7]

I think they will get to a living arrangment and understanding .
It took my two kitties months to work things out, so that may happen. Got Waffles at 2 years old August of 2016, he had been semi-feral- he came from a shelter. Then June of 2018 got Mooshoo as a 3 month old kitten from the same shelter, she was in a litter from a home. Once Mooshoo got older and bigger and they were tussling there was play and dominance scuffles, chasing, pouncing, swatting, rassling; some borderline fighting; hissing by Mooshoo, more than once she would yell- no damage. It took some months of this with them figuring things out. And in that time they would really play and have a good time.
Mooshoo would get disgusted because whenever she was in one of Waffles' "spots" he would come over and make her leave and she'd glare for awhile. She started standing up and refusing to move which meant swats back and forth, hisses, her ears flat back, Waffles trying to rassle her out of a spot, then peace started to break out and they'd stop the argument just like that. Waffles would give up, and over the last months they are pretty peaceful and still play well. I think they like each other. Seems they've figured themselves out. But they don't snuggle up and sleep right next to each other.
So that's why I think yours are doing well!

Ah, I loved hearing about your cats' process - thank you! Two months isn't that long, and yet when you're living it every day it sure seems like it sometimes, doesn't it? So which one is now the dominant one, Mooshoo or Waffles?

My two only lay next to each other that one time, and that was by accident. They looked over their shoulders at each other when it happened and you could almost see them deciding whether they wanted to fight or not. No touching since then other than to tussle, though.

Today Finn is the aggressor. Shoot, he may be the aggressor most of the time, I can't even tell anymore. He has pinned Charlie a couple times and they had a real long standoff in the bathroom where Charlie seemed to back down. No yowling or long tussles like yesterday though, but Charlie is acting very submissive today. I also didn't take Finn out of his room til after lunch, which helped. I don't know what it is about mornings that are so difficult for them..

 

[Buffster7]

Well, the Ripple Rug was a HUGE hit for the first couple minutes, then it led to an almost-fight. Any toy immediately becomes "territory" that they tend to tussle over. But because the toy was such a big hit, the stakes were high. Charlie really doesn't want to fight, he just seems to want to join the fun. He just came and laid on the Ripple Rug while Finn was on it and Finn jumped him and it was ugly fast. Charlie retreated and ran to the next room, and Finn followed and postured over Charlie, ears back and eyes mean. He looked like he was a second away from pouncing so I told them to stop - I have let them tussle many times today, but this one felt like it might turn mean. However, Finn was leaning forward and I read somewhere that when cats are about to fight, they lean back, is that right? I picked the blanket up yesterday because it seemed to be the source of their fights, so I put the Ripple Rug away tonight because evidently anything desirable becomes "turf" that must be fought for and won. This is why we can't have fun things, boys. Maybe down the road when they've come to an understanding?

 

[walli]

They need to share!!
ugh! Have to try and figure out how to not be jealous?
It does seem that Finn is the aggressor. I can't remember what's in them but have you read the articles about when Cats are jealous?
I know it's frustrating, hang in there, the ripple rug sounds great, I think I will get 1 for Walli, hee hee might have to get one for Joey too, because they are a long way from sharing!

 

[Furballsmom]

You're thinking of this article?

Do Cats Get Jealous? (And What To Do About It When They Do) - TheCatSite

Do cats get jealous? Uncover the truth in this comprehensive guide that explores feline behavior, the concept of jealousy in cats, and offers practical advice to create a happier environment for your pet.

thecatsite.com

 

[Buffster7]

It does seem that Finn is the aggressor.

You know, I thought so too. But then toward the end of the night, I caught Charlie pinning Finn with his eyes, and Charlie came running toward Finn (Finn's back was turned and he was oblivious) and for a moment I thought Charlie was going to pounce him, but then he ended up just gluing his nose to Finn's backside. The whole eye-pinning and running the length of the hallway to get to him felt aggressive, so I was thinking, "What is going on??" And what is with Charlie's obsession with smelling Finn's backside? He will glue his nose to Finn's backside and follow it around. Is that some other sort of dominance thing? Cats. SMH.

 

[rubysmama]

evidently anything desirable becomes "turf" that must be fought for and won.

Guess you need to buy 2 of everything. But then one of them will probably still want the one the other has.

 

[Furballsmom]

Hi!
Does Finn have any digestive issues? Being gassy, dingleberries hanging or stuck, ...he's healthy?

 

[pearl99]

Ah, I loved hearing about your cats' process - thank you! Two months isn't that long, and yet when you're living it every day it sure seems like it sometimes, doesn't it? So which one is now the dominant one, Mooshoo or Waffles?

My two only lay next to each other that one time, and that was by accident. They looked over their shoulders at each other when it happened and you could almost see them deciding whether they wanted to fight or not. No touching since then other than to tussle, though.

Today Finn is the aggressor. Shoot, he may be the aggressor most of the time, I can't even tell anymore. He has pinned Charlie a couple times and they had a real long standoff in the bathroom where Charlie seemed to back down. No yowling or long tussles like yesterday though, but Charlie is acting very submissive today. I also didn't take Finn out of his room til after lunch, which helped. I don't know what it is about mornings that are so difficult for them..

Waffles is the dominant one. Mooshoo has decided to give in about 75% of the time, and when she doesn't Waffles will give up. Used to be Mooshoo always gave in but as time went on she decided to stand up more.
They still have some tussles, mostly it's Waffles asserting dominance and Mooshoo complains with hissing and growling and on a rare occasion a loud yell. But now it's all noise, no attacks.
Yeah mine don't lay next to each other at all now. One will be on one side of me, the other on the other side.
However I do notice Waffles every few weeks give Mooshoo a few head licks, and she accepts it. But then they separate.
I think the butt sniff is a cat thing for "getting to know all about you?" An instinct. What have you been eating? Charlie had his chance when Finn's back was turned!
If Charlie decides to be more submissive that would help the amount of tussles. They can work things out that way.
My two will play pounce and run, Mooshoo spies Waffles and crouches low with head down and slowly creeps up, his back is turned, she runs up and swats him on the back and he takes off running and it's a game of tag. Or he whaps her back and they chase and play tag. So, hopefully the pouncing turns fun at some point!
I used to watch YouTube videos of cats play-fighting to get a feel for what they do.
It is tiring to have to do this for a long time!

 

[Buffster7]

Does Finn have any digestive issues? Being gassy, dingleberries hanging or stuck, ...he's healthy?

Hi! He's healthy now as long as I feed him his urinary diet. If I try to transition him to better food he goes right back to diarrhea. It almost feels dominant when Charlie does it - it's a persistent, non-negotiable thing. He'll glue his nose to Finn's backside and follow it around very persistent until Finn gets fed up and turns to face Charlie, then Charlie smacks Finn, then it's a tussle. But because Finn has historically struggled with digestive issues, maybe he IS gassy? Hmm

Waffles is the dominant one. Mooshoo has decided to give in about 75% of the time, and when she doesn't Waffles will give up. Used to be Mooshoo always gave in but as time went on she decided to stand up more.
They still have some tussles, mostly it's Waffles asserting dominance and Mooshoo complains with hissing and growling and on a rare occasion a loud yell. But now it's all noise, no attacks.
Yeah mine don't lay next to each other at all now. One will be on one side of me, the other on the other side.
However I do notice Waffles every few weeks give Mooshoo a few head licks, and she accepts it. But then they separate.
I think the butt sniff is a cat thing for "getting to know all about you?" An instinct. What have you been eating? Charlie had his chance when Finn's back was turned!
If Charlie decides to be more submissive that would help the amount of tussles. They can work things out that way.
My two will play pounce and run, Mooshoo spies Waffles and crouches low with head down and slowly creeps up, his back is turned, she runs up and swats him on the back and he takes off running and it's a game of tag. Or he whaps her back and they chase and play tag. So, hopefully the pouncing turns fun at some point!
I used to watch YouTube videos of cats play-fighting to get a feel for what they do.
It is tiring to have to do this for a long time!

Ooooh, the giving of licks can only be a good thing!! So good to hear that the attacks have stopped and that they're just bluffing - I hope we reach that point. You're right, it's tiring. And the game of chase - so cute! Charlie has tried that with Finn several times, I think he would enjoy a benign game of "Tag - you're It!" but it turns into a hissing, smacking, and a tussle when Finn pounces and bites. I really hope they can progress to where yours are!

Finn had a rough day today - I think that constant meowing is both anxiety and wanting to go outside. Yesterday he darted between my legs when I went to the garage, so I know he might be a door-darter. I was glad I got him micro-chipped but I really wish he hadn't been ear-tipped when I had him neutered, because he refuses to wear a collar and if he escapes, people will think he's feral. When I brought him back inside from the garage, he sat by the door and yowled non-stop.

Today he prowled the house meowing and crying - incessantly. All day. Hours. I had a friend stop by and even she commented, "I feel your pain...I don't know how you do it. He's LOUD!" His screechy little voice will grate the nerves raw. And yet...I was just glad they didn't really tussle today. Charlie avoided him and actually hid from him most of the day, and that saddened me. He tried to come out to greet my friend, whom he really likes, and of course Finn pounced him and bit him, so he retreated. Every day is a new day - never know what their behavior is going to be on any given day!

 

[Furballsmom]

You could try noise reducing headphones?

 

[Buffster7]

You could try noise reducing headphones?

I would do that if I didn't need to be able to keep my ears open in case of a fight! Because, you know, I jump in and interfere like it's my job.

 

[Furballsmom]

There's a type of headphone (takes batteries) where they decrease sound such as on a gun range and similar, but have a volume adjustment so that you can still hear conversation.

 

[Buffster7]

Finn is struggling. I've tried everything and nothing consoles him. I was reminded again today just how much his street life formed him. I was changing out my trash bag in my kitchen trash can; pulled it out and tied it up. When my back was turned, Finn tore into the full trash bag and was scavenging for things to eat. He had just had lunch, so he wasn't hungry - he's just programmed to scavenge for food constantly.

He is now going from door to window to back again crying and meowing to be let out. How long does it take for a former stray to settle down and accept indoor life?

 

[Buffster7]

FINALLY Finn went to lay down after crying non-stop since noon when I got home and let him out.
But...Charlie is in the hearth room with me, and Finn has laid down on Charlie's perch in the living room. Charlie has claimed this perch as his and never allows Finn up there. Not sure what to do. Should I leave him and see what happens? Or is it better to move him before Charlie sees, and capitalize on the fact that there have been no tussles today?

 

[Jcatbird]

I would leave him alone and enjoy the quiet. No matter what you do a tussle May or may not come. If Finn is happy, let him be.
I do think that he is a little restless but he doesn’t own the house yet. He will. We can’t predict time but he still looks happy. I think he sees that he can get your attention by crying. That’s the purpose of crying, to get the attention of some other living creature. It works too! He did settle so......
If he were a child, you would make sure he had love, food, water, potty, enough attention, ways to be active and good health. If all those things are attended to, maybe he’s saying....... Moooom.... I’m bored! Did you ever do that as I kid? I did.
Maybe if he cries later put the new ripple rug in his room and close the door. Let him own that toy. Or you could put it in a room neither owns, like the bathroom and let them take turns with the door shut.
Another suggestion is to give Finn a toy and a dab of catnip when he needs to amuse himself. Mine play well by themselves if catnip is involved. I still think that time and patience are your best resource. I know it seems like this has gone on forever but they moved so quickly to start with you actually got a jump ahead a bit early. I think that this is just a “catch up” time to where they would have progressed had things started out more slowly. I know it’s stressful but tou have all done a really fantastic job.

 

[Avery]

I just wanted to pop in to say "good job" with these kitties! Not easy to integrate cats but you have come a long way with Finn and Charlie. I agree that keeping them busy with toys can be very helpful. I'm always looking online for ideas. And of course, paper bags and ping pong balls are great, too!

Unfortunately, my four year old cat Palmer and his (semi-feral/now indoors) mama Ruby just do not like each other. I think Palmer would like to be friends, but Ruby does not seem interested. No fights, but they do a little chasing and hissing. I've been keeping treats on hand for times when they are close to each other and feed them just a few as I say to Ruby, "Look how nice it is when Palmer is around, we all get treats!" Seems to help a bit, but I'm not sure if they will ever be buddies, which I really think is going to happen with your boys!

 

[Buffster7]

Today went really well overall! I'm SO pleased with how the cats did! Keeping them separate until lunch helps.
I usually put their Bach's essence or their Bully remedy in their food, but today they each got a dropper directly on the napes of their necks like flea treatment and I rubbed it in. I do think that helped.

Finn cried nonstop from 12:00 to 4:00 and settled down on Charlie's perch from 4-5. He then started up again and cried til bedtime. The only time he stopped was when I made a kitty burrito with a blanket...my cat has sensory issues. Charlie jumped on the bed and was SO GOOD with Finn! He reached in and tapped him with his paw, obviously wanting to play, but he's a little afraid of Finn so he kept himself in check. Earlier today when I brought Finn out for the first time, Charlie ran and hid under the couch - so sad! I think if we can get enough days under our belt without any tussles, that fear will recede.

Doesn't matter if I ignore Finn (which I have to do - cannot give him my constant attention) or not - the crying is constant. Even now I can hear him crying in his bedroom. I did a search on here and there was someone else who was having this issue with their cat. They didn't find any solutions and quit posting - I didn't want to resurrect a year-old thread or I would have asked if they ever figured it out. I just pray that the CBD oil will kick in, that the cats will become friendly, And Finn will settle in and not feel so distraught.

Tomorrow I start clinicals so will be gone all day every day. Should I put Finn in my room and let Charlie have run of the house, since my room is bigger than Finn's room? Or would that be too strange and stressful for Finn (and Charlie)?

Here's the vid of Charlie being so sweet to Finn!

Maybe if he cries later put the new ripple rug in his room and close the door. Let him own that toy. Or you could put it in a room neither owns, like the bathroom and let them take turns with the door shut.
Another suggestion is to give Finn a toy and a dab of catnip when he needs to amuse himself.

I've tried catnip with Finn and he's entirely indifferent to it, but I could leave the Ripple Rug in his room tomorrow, he might love that! That'll ease my guilt about leaving him cooped up.

And of course, paper bags and ping pong balls are great, too!

Oooh, I'm tucking that away for future reference, thanks! Right now toys make them fight - but my hope is that once they're over the hump and stop competing and trying to dominate every little thing, that they'll start playing with each other. The paper bags sound like they would be a hit!