I Have More Trust Issues Than This Feral..

pearl99

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One thing many cat parents forget is that play is practice for fighting and hunting. It can look worse then it is from the outside sometimes. No fur and no blood usually means no problem. The behavior of the cats together outside of play usually will.show if one of holding a grudge or upset after the fact. Which would be when a human would want to intervene. My crew has their moments when I tell them to either quiet down or knock it off; but 90% of the time it related to them being too loud or close to knocking something over.
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Buffster7

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Okay. You do remember me telling you about Precious? I still have squabbled here among a few. It’s a back and forth but not a constant.
I really thought Finn was wanting to play. Maybe he is just calling Charlie out because he wants to play? Possible. Charlie challenged Finn to come “under the chair my boy!” That one paw swat is something I saw as a Charlie for of owning the game. Sorry but I was just smiling at the cattitude being shown. They both have strong personalities but it just didn’t seem serious yet. It could have gone there but right that moment, I saw it as test play. What can each of us get away with. I think they are doing very, very well. I do think they will be buddies and in a small way, already are. I have dealt with others that were bent on constant attacks to vanquish each other. That is not this. They weren’t really even mad yet. Imagine if they were human brothers. They might pick at each other. It would be,” Mom! He touched me!” Then,” Well he breathed on me first!” Ask any parent who ever took two kids on a very long car trip. Lol That’s kind of how I see Charlie and Finn acting here. I think you’re doing great.
Now, how about a third kitty? :running:
Hahaha!!! Your last sentence...:flail:

Yes, yesterday was a good day. I felt that that interaction was positive overall. This morning not as much. I've noticed a pattern that these guys do NOT interact well in the morning. Usually Charlie is the grumpy one in the morning. I'm not talking early morning, either. Any time before afternoon and he is just gunning for Finn. I can't figure out if this is physiological (time for his calming supplements to enter his system) or psychological (Finn sleeps in his own room at night, so maybe reacclimatizing to having Finn in "his" space again?).

This time I was sitting on the ground on the blanket in between them. They were making eyes at each other. I honestly feel like most of their interactions start as playful with intent. By that I mean playful but with intent of both of them to push the envelope. Finn playfully lunged for Charlie, Charlie swatted and nipped Finn, but then then Charlie really hit Finn hard and the whole tone changed. I saw Finn lower his head with eyes on Charlie, eyes drop to half-mast for a second but a really angry look come on his face. My voice sayin "its okay" had Finn walk away, but Charlie lunged at him - I have never seen Charlie go after Finn with intent to fight before. My first instinct was to literally reach out and grab him mid-air before he made contact with Finn. Now this is what sets them back = when I interfere.

Finn is currently in his cage in the living room, I got Charlie up on the Chaise beside us for a few minutes before he grumpily slunk off. Here's a pic of Finn chillin' next to me. I just looked at him and he slow-blinked me...must keep trying because this sweet boy deserves a good life.
Chillin.jpg
 
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Buffster7

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The calming collar arrived today. I zip-tied it to breakaway collars and put them on both cats. Totally unexpected outcome.
Finn went crazy with the collar on - flipping and flopping and panicky. He ended up with the collar around his teeth just like Shadowsrescue's experience. So I had to remove it. Charlie, however, settled right down. He is TOTALLY chill. Finn even went to pounce him a couple times as paybacks for this morning (that's how it works) and Charlie did not respond! He gave a half-hearted swat and went to his perch. Finn looked kind of confused. This happened two or three times until Finn gave up trying to pick a fight! I guess if it calms one of them, it'll help the other?!

I definitely wouldn't want it against their skin/fur, though. It does have essential oils in it, and from what I'm gathering we don't really know the full affect on cats. Some say toxic, some say not, some say it depends on the oils. Still, would rather it not be against his skin but will just observe today since I'm home.

calmingcollar.jpg

relaxivet.jpg


And I hope this stuff really works, because Finn has just settled down in Charlie's chair. This is a first. 🙉🙈

charlie's chair.jpg
 
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Jcatbird

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I’m glad you laughed at the suggestion of a third cat! Lol I was joking but in truth, sometimes three are easier than two. Sometimes, not. :rolleyes: I’m glad you had a calm period. If they get past this then, hopefully, you won’t need the collar anymore.
I’m not surprised that Finn flipped over the collar. I have seen more reject collars than accept them. Maybe Charlie likes being ,” dressed up!” 😊
 
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I’m glad you laughed at the suggestion of a third cat! Lol I was joking but in truth, sometimes three are easier than two. Sometimes, not. :rolleyes: I’m glad you had a calm period. If they get past this then, hopefully, you won’t need the collar anymore.
I’m not surprised that Finn flipped over the collar. I have seen more reject collars than accept them. Maybe Charlie likes being ,” dressed up!” 😊
That collar kept him mellow for the rest of the day! I've never seen anything like it. I'm hoping he was truly mellow and that the smell of the essential oils didn't make him feel sick and I was just seeing a kitty that didn't feel well? But then...cats get grumpy when they're sick, don't they? And he wasn't grumpy. I couldn't believe how much better they did this evening; once Finn realized Charlie wasn't going to stalk him or retaliate when he (Finn) postured, then he chilled out. I took the collar off after Finn went to bed for the night, not sure if I should leave it on? My reasoning is that I hope that he doesn't get immune to it. However, should I keep the "mellow" going all night?

I sent back my baby monitor because it never stayed connected to the internet and never worked when I needed it, so I returned and set up a different one today. The picture on this one isn't as crisp or clear, but it's a bigger picture overall and it works seamlessly. I was watching them from my room tonight. Finn crept up to Charlie from behind; Charlie twisted to half-face Finn and hissed. Finn held his ground. The face-off lasted for a good 30 seconds. Then Charlie realized Finn wasn't going to pounce, Finn realized Charlie wasn't going to smack (which he would have before the collar), and Charlie laid back down and Finn kept hover-sitting behind him. PROGRESS!! I could see that Finn really wanted to lay down but he didn't dare. Maybe soon.. 🙏

FinnCharlie.jpg.PNG
 
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Once again, mornings don't go well for these guys. Charlie is the grouch. I was calm enough to allow them to tussle. The first clip shows Finn retreating - then after a minute Charlie started chirping, so Finn came back and they tussled again. But the second tussle was more aggressive and ended with me having to separate them with a piece of cardboard. I loved them up and let them stay out for another couple minutes, then put Finn in his cage with a toy where he feels safe, and he's playing with his toy while Charlie glares from his perch.

I am wondering if I should try to allow Finn to sleep with us one night, or if it's too soon. I don't know if having him separated all night and then "re-introducing" us in the morning is causing more stress, and if trying to allow Finn to sleep with us would end up in a fight. I'm a light sleeper and if Finn is restless or the boys don't settle, I will get no sleep. I kind of relish my quiet time in the morning before I get Finn up and get him breakfast. But if it will help this issue, I'll give it a try. Open to suggestions.

First video, first tussle:

Second video, Charlie calls Finn back, Finn pounces, and it gets ugly (out of range of camera):
 

pearl99

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To me the first video looks like playing- play/fighting, but there wasn't sound so don't know if anyone was hissing-growling-screaming. Charlie is mostly on top but Finn is smaller and it's a short video. They will put ears back some when playing, but also they go back to being forward, or move around, and they will posture and have tails a-swishin' in play. I'm not seeing hackles raised. Then Finn had had enough and retreated, Charlie didn't chase him, but Finn came back for more in the second video.
But, don't see any fur flying or any damage done.

The second one can't see the ugly part where it escalated like you said, or sound. So I don't want to venture a wrong comment.

My two would play like in the first video, and Mooshoo (who was younger and smaller at the time) would hiss at Waffles and run away when she had enough. So there may be some hissing if one is trying to send a message of "too much!!" to the other.
 

pearl99

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I was just thinking I guess an analogy for the way cats play-fight is football players, they practice running, tackling, tripping, butting, slamming into, jumping on, shoving, and being merciless to prepare for a game. They aren't trying to hurt each other in practice. Cats have the instinct to practice hunting, pouncing, wrestling, hitting, bopping, trouncing, chasing, stalking to keep their skills sharp as if they lived outside or sometimes ventured outside, as many do. Plus they seem to just have fun doing these things. Can look evil to us. Trick is figuring out what is play and what is not! As you can see :).
 
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Buffster7

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To me the first video looks like playing- play/fighting, but there wasn't sound so don't know if anyone was hissing-growling-screaming. Charlie is mostly on top but Finn is smaller and it's a short video. They will put ears back some when playing, but also they go back to being forward, or move around, and they will posture and have tails a-swishin' in play. I'm not seeing hackles raised. Then Finn had had enough and retreated, Charlie didn't chase him, but Finn came back for more in the second video.
But, don't see any fur flying or any damage done.

The second one can't see the ugly part where it escalated like you said, or sound. So I don't want to venture a wrong comment.

My two would play like in the first video, and Mooshoo (who was younger and smaller at the time) would hiss at Waffles and run away when she had enough. So there may be some hissing if one is trying to send a message of "too much!!" to the other.
Okay, it sure helps to have the vids "interpreted" - so thank you! The growling and hissing didn't start til the end of the second video - I was watching on my monitor and entered the room when I heard it. Finn was laying on his side halfway under a chair with his paws raised, and Charlie was standing looking pissed off and appearing to be about to pounce, so I put cardboard between them. Charlie was definitely glaring at him when I put him in his cage. So I think it may have started as play but then they got pissed off? But I'm so not sure. I doubt myself a lot - because although they both acted disgruntled afterward, about 30 minutes later I carried Charlie to the chaise and snuggled with him next to Finn in the cage, and they started batting paws through the cage, playfully. That cage is their security blanket. Then I remembered Charlie's chirping before Finn came back. Chirping is friendly, right? Yet when Finn pounced him, they both seemed to go overboard. So I wonder if I should have let it play out more rather than separate them with the cardboard. Ahhhhhh!!

I have to leave home for the rest of the day and will be gone all afternoon and evening. I'll have this weekend at home with them and then will be working long days for the next 2 weeks with very little time to spare for them. They'll be separated. I hope we don't lose ground.
 

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Okay, it sure helps to have the vids "interpreted" - so thank you! The growling and hissing didn't start til the end of the second video - I was watching on my monitor and entered the room when I heard it. Finn was laying on his side halfway under a chair with his paws raised, and Charlie was standing looking pissed off and appearing to be about to pounce, so I put cardboard between them. Charlie was definitely glaring at him when I put him in his cage. So I think it may have started as play but then they got pissed off? But I'm so not sure. I doubt myself a lot - because although they both acted disgruntled afterward, about 30 minutes later I carried Charlie to the chaise and snuggled with him next to Finn in the cage, and they started batting paws through the cage, playfully. That cage is their security blanket. Then I remembered Charlie's chirping before Finn came back. Chirping is friendly, right? Yet when Finn pounced him, they both seemed to go overboard. So I wonder if I should have let it play out more rather than separate them with the cardboard. Ahhhhhh!!

I have to leave home for the rest of the day and will be gone all afternoon and evening. I'll have this weekend at home with them and then will be working long days for the next 2 weeks with very little time to spare for them. They'll be separated. I hope we don't lose ground.
A good rule of thumb is "No fur, no blood, no problem." Even Cats that are bonded will have the occasional spat where one takes things too far and they end up hissing and yowling, but these two are just getting to know eachother and neither knows the other's limits.
 

Jcatbird

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I agree with all the above. We didn’t see the off camera action but Charlie called Finn back for play and Finn seemed to want to play. When they break away, that’s natural. Chirping and having Finn return, good sign. More tussle but I didn’t see aggression. Two brothers in rough play mode. Maybe it did result in a pinch that hurt or someone getting mad but the bid is okay.
I don’t think you will lose ground when you have to separate them but they may become a bit excited to get together again so be ready for bouncing around play that may go to the edge of being mad. I think they’ll want extra hard play at first but it will settle after they run some of it off. Very glad to hear you used the cardboard! :clap2:
I think you are all doing just great! My! What a difference a few weeks can make!
 
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Buffster7

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A good rule of thumb is "No fur, no blood, no problem." Even Cats that are bonded will have the occasional spat where one takes things too far and they end up hissing and yowling, but these two are just getting to know eachother and neither knows the other's limits.
Okay, that's a good phrase to keep in mind, thank you! It's SO hard for me to let them tussle. That's the beauty of the baby monitor - I can watch from a distance, and only entered room when I heard the hissing and yelping.

Maybe it did result in a pinch that hurt or someone getting mad but the bid is okay.
I don’t think you will lose ground when you have to separate them but they may become a bit excited to get together again so be ready for bouncing around play that may go to the edge of being mad. I think they’ll want extra hard play at first but it will settle after they run some of it off.
It's too bad that the monitor couldn't pick up what happened between them - I couldn't see it, just hear it. It wasn't bad, but they definitely steered clear of each other for the rest of the day any time Finn wasn't in his cage. I was starting to get worried about Charlie by the time I left for my meeting - he was really subdued all day and crawled into the bottom of Finn's cage and lay there all afternoon and wouldn't come out even when I had to leave for my meeting. He acted really down in the dumps. Could his feelings be hurt somehow? But didn't the videos look like Charlie was the "winner" of the play-fight?
 
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