I Have More Trust Issues Than This Feral..

Jcatbird

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That was super. Charlie showed Finn his belly. Charlie does want to play. Finn did play too. There is still testing of the waters/boundaries but it went great. The air biting is just play/ testing too. Finn needed to potty so he sent Charlie away of Charlie just left to avoid that particular event. Lol As you already know, I am big on the cage introductions and I think this went great! Security, open feeling and you can observe without having to interfere. I was really laughing at how cute Charlie was being. Finn did really well to but I think he had potty on his mind. When ya gotta go, ya gotta go. This is a good time to use a toy on a wand or string to get them to play together over the next days. Give them some time to explore this but when Finn gets antsy, play. :woo::bunnydance::dance::jive:
 
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Buffster7

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That was super. Charlie showed Finn his belly. Charlie does want to play. Finn did play too. There is still testing of the waters/boundaries but it went great. The air biting is just play/ testing too. Finn needed to potty so he sent Charlie away of Charlie just left to avoid that particular event. Lol As you already know, I am big on the cage introductions and I think this went great! Security, open feeling and you can observe without having to interfere. I was really laughing at how cute Charlie was being. Finn did really well to but I think he had potty on his mind. When ya gotta go, ya gotta go. This is a good time to use a toy on a wand or string to get them to play together over the next days. Give them some time to explore this but when Finn gets antsy, play. :woo::bunnydance::dance::jive:
You know what's weird, Finn had already gone potty. He didn't need to potty, he just digs obsessively in that litter box every single time I have him out in the cage. When I go into his room, he never spends that much time in his litter box, and those aren't the times he normally potties, either.
I wonder if it's a little bit of a "spreading his scent" thing? What do you think?

Charlie was being REALLY cute! He really wanted to bond. I didn't see that same desire from Finn. In both videos I have, Finn sent Charlie packing with his claws. Not sure what to make of that, but then again, Charlie is free and he is caged, so maybe he's a little less warm and fuzzy about the whole encounter. I took this pic after the vids:
 

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Awww... look at that picture of Charlie, belly-side-up! You have two very cute boys! No advice here since you are doing just great.

At my house, after months and months of being together, there suddenly is a little role reversal between two cats, and while I thought I had their relationship all figured out (who was more dominant, who would chase or hiss or growl, etc.) things have changed a bit! Nothing bad, just different, just unexpected. You know your two kitties well enough to deal with whatever curve balls they send your way as you all move along, and you have tons of great support from folks here. Keep up the good work and keep those photos and videos coming!
 
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Buffster7

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Will someone please come over and integrate these two for me? I evidently can't do it. :runaround:

I was about as relaxed as I could get with the positive encounters we've had lately. When I let Finn out this afternoon, the boys made a loop of the house without problem, then Charlie went stalkerish and went to pounce Finn, and Finn of course swats, then Charlie swats. They looked like they were kind of circling, then Charlie ran away, and Finn started to chase him. I panic and toss the phone and pick Finn up and take him back to his room. I kept hearing the comment in my mind that you don't want them to fight, that that would be a big setback.

However, did my ending it on that note cause equal setback? Should I have let them go? Finn is fearless and it concerns me that he goes after Charlie the way he does. When I came out from Finn's room, Charlie was under a chair he goes to when he feels insecure. But he followed me back to the home office and is laying beside on his back. What do you guys think? :oops:


*Edit: I'm going back to watch in snow motion, and I don't see ears back. Were they playing? It didn't feel like it at the time, but now I don't know. Argh!!
 
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shadowsrescue

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I thought I did see Charlie's ear moving back and forth. Yet he was asserting himself and showing who is boss! It definitely could have been play, but when your voice got loud, they both kind of freaked. It's completely natural that you broke them up as you didn't know what would happen. They are definitely testing each other and feeling each other out.

Good news is no hissing or growling. Chasing and swatting is part of the play.

It's so hard to relax when you can't control what's going to happen.

All in all it wasn't too bad. Yet, do watch for things to escalate from feeling each other out to someone's gone too far. Cats can flip on a dime from play to fight.
 
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Buffster7

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I thought I did see Charlie's ear moving back and forth. Yet he was asserting himself and showing who is boss! It definitely could have been play, but when your voice got loud, they both kind of freaked. It's completely natural that you broke them up as you didn't know what would happen. They are definitely testing each other and feeling each other out.

Good news is no hissing or growling. Chasing and swatting is part of the play.

It's so hard to relax when you can't control what's going to happen.

All in all it wasn't too bad. Yet, do watch for things to escalate from feeling each other out to someone's gone too far. Cats can flip on a dime from play to fight.
So next time should I refrain from getting involved - just let them go and see what happens? I am awful at this - I can't stand the thought of either of them getting hurt.

And I can't figure out which one is the aggressor. I think Charlie is the instigator - he has always been the bully. But Finn won't be bullied and fights back, then Charlie gets scared and backs down. The question is, will Finn stop? I just don't know how far Finn will take it. Are there cats that like to fight for the thrill of it, is that a concern? Or do they generally stop once alpha has been established?
 

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It really wasn't bad, Finn was being so good!
It really is pretty delicate

When Finn was in the cage, they were doing really well
maybe more of this?

But then again, they are doing really well! I know from experience we can cause the tension in the air.
 

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This morning, Charlie cuddled briefly, then went straight to Finn's door and started talking to him through the door. Would not stop until he heard Finn's response. I was like, "OH NO YOU DI'NT!" :doh: :lol: It's storming here, so Charlie might have been checking on him in there.
That's kinda sweet, I think. :catlove:

I panic and toss the phone and pick Finn up and take him back to his room. I kept hearing the comment in my mind that you don't want them to fight, that that would be a big setback.
Another comment you might want to have in the back of your mind, is to "never stick your hands in the middle of a cat fight". A woman I used to work with did that, to break up a fight between her 2 cats, and she ended up taking one of the cats to the vet to check on a bite, and the vet was way more concerned about the bite my co-worker had gotten while breaking up the fight, told my co-worker to go to the ER right away. So just something to remember.

And to help answer the "are the playing or fighting", here's the TCS article, aptly named, Are My Cats Fighting Or Playing?, which has pics and videos of playing and fighting.
 

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rubysmama rubysmama That’s an excellent link to send!

Buffster7 Buffster7 Check that out. I think the video there may help you.

As to whether to intervene.... stay ready to as you feel the need. Use something like I suggested though or your voice if possible. I know we all instinctively grab the cats but I can tell you that in the confusion, the grabbed cat may think he is being attacked and respond by biting what grabs him.
I think more cage time would be helpful. Finn and Charlie will know each other better that way. Finn can scent mark the cage as his private retreat. A good thing! You can continue the out of the cage visits too. I just think long cage visits will add to the kitties being comfortable with each other. I know Finn wants out but .... lol. It just takes time for familiarity to set in.
 

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For some reason I stopped getting notifications from this thread even though it shows I'm still watching it. That's actually been happening with a lot of threads here lately.

It went well til the very end like usual. Initially I lost Finn - couldn't find him and then heard lip smacking and found him next to a chair eating vomit. I've never seen a cat do that before! I don't know if it was Finn's vomit or Charlie's, but Finn was chowing down.:barfgreen:
One of my fosters would do this any time one of my Cats would throw up if there was food in it. If it was a hairball or something she'd leave it alone, but vomit from one of the Cats who had recently eaten? She was all over it.

My impression is that it ties in with the "I have to eat what I can when I can because I don't know when my next meal will be" instinct that strays and ferals have if they've ever been starved.

Don’t get nervous. Just keep going as you have been. I think Finn is most likely to just dash off to explore. He is excited to know all about the house. I actually bought a fish net for use with the cats early on. If you are really nervous about handling a cat fight, you could try one. A find a broom is just as handy for separating kitties. Placed between them as a wall, it distracts and forms a barrier. I really doubt you’ll have anything more than a patty cake festival. I never needed the net but.... as you can see, the cats enjoy it. Lol View attachment 296972
I just put myself between them when Cats start to fight. I do this all the time on my volunteer days and I've never once been attacked, they will usually stop as soon as they see feet between them, if not I just grab one and pick them up and that gets them to stop.

I realize that won't work for everyone though, some people can't do it because they're too nervous and the Cats will definitely pick up on that. I do it because I can stay calm and that helps calm the Cats down too.
 

Jcatbird

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For some reason I stopped getting notifications from this thread even though it shows I'm still watching it. That's actually been happening with a lot of threads here lately.



One of my fosters would do this any time one of my Cats would throw up if there was food in it. If it was a hairball or something she'd leave it alone, but vomit from one of the Cats who had recently eaten? She was all over it.

My impression is that it ties in with the "I have to eat what I can when I can because I don't know when my next meal will be" instinct that strays and ferals have if they've ever been starved.



I just put myself between them when Cats start to fight. I do this all the time on my volunteer days and I've never once been attacked, they will usually stop as soon as they see feet between them, if not I just grab one and pick them up and that gets them to stop.

I realize that won't work for everyone though, some people can't do it because they're too nervous and the Cats will definitely pick up on that. I do it because I can stay calm and that helps calm the Cats down too.
I sometimes don’t get updates either, :dunno:
Being calm and acting as the one who is in charge definitely helps calm the kitties. Interrupting their staring battle too. :)
 

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rubysmama rubysmama

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One thing many cat parents forget is that play is practice for fighting and hunting. It can look worse then it is from the outside sometimes. No fur and no blood usually means no problem. The behavior of the cats together outside of play usually will.show if one of holding a grudge or upset after the fact. Which would be when a human would want to intervene. My crew has their moments when I tell them to either quiet down or knock it off; but 90% of the time it related to them being too loud or close to knocking something over.
 
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Buffster7

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I think more cage time would be helpful. Finn and Charlie will know each other better that way.
Definitely going to keep the cage going if Finn will tolerate it. Finn was doing uncommonly well with it yesterday; usually he cries the whole time he's in there and acts insecure like he's being punished. Just the day before that I had decided not to use the cage anymore as it seemed to stress him so much. Then yesterday it was just a natural progression and they were so chill I tried it again and it went well. So will definitely use the cage on the days he tolerates it.

I do feel that Charlie is going to try to bully him whether I bring him out for visits now or in a month. The cage will definitely help exposure, so I'm still going to use that. With Charlie's history, I know that whenever the time comes to have Finn out of the cage more, the bullying is going to pop up. It's probably a good thing that Finn won't allow himself to be bullied, but I just need to know that he won't keep fighting for the thrill of it. DO cats fight for the thrill of it??

I do it because I can stay calm and that helps calm the Cats down too.
I really envy your calm. I literally took some Kava Kava yesterday to calm myself down. I'm a tightly wound person on a good day. This cat introduction business stresses me.

Interrupting their staring battle too. :)
Good point! I should have stepped into Charlie's line of sight yesterday when he started staring, before he started stalking Finn! Doh! Will remember that for next time.
 
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One thing many cat parents forget is that play is practice for fighting and hunting. It can look worse then it is from the outside sometimes. No fur and no blood usually means no problem. The behavior of the cats together outside of play usually will.show if one of holding a grudge or upset after the fact. Which would be when a human would want to intervene. My crew has their moments when I tell them to either quiet down or knock it off; but 90% of the time it related to them being too loud or close to knocking something over.
Thanks for the vids! See, if I saw my boys behaving the way yours did in that first vid with the tails lashing, I would have thought they were fighting. Do any of your crew ever fight? If so, what is the outcome - have there been injuries?
 

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Thanks for the vids! See, if I saw my boys behaving the way yours did in that first vid with the tails lashing, I would have thought they were fighting. Do any of your crew ever fight? If so, what is the outcome - have there been injuries?
There is a really long complicated answer to that. Mostly involving that Rocket, the little girl on her back in the first video, gives off mixed signals and has a short temper. She gets serious sometime but the boys treat their little sister good and have learned to give her space when needed. The first video was the middle of a long play session involving lots of chasing and pouncing on each other. Rocket gave me an annoyed look and followed Link when he left the room just after this (Rocket laying and Link the larger top cat in the video). My read was he thought she was done from her behavior but she wasn't and followed him because they kept going for a few more minutes in the other room. They have never had a truly serious fight where they intend to hurt each other.

My guys do have outside access and have gotten in serious fights with other cats. So I do know the difference and recognize it. Never ever ever get in the middle of any cat fight regardless of the seriousness. In my house, I tell and the cats stop if I think it's getting too loud. I sometimes have to stomp my foot to get Rockets attention when she's in a mood but she snaps out when I make eye contact. If it's a true fight with neighborhood cats, my apperance is usually enough to break it up, my crew retreats to me and I pet them. The strange cat takes the hint and leaves or I stand and shoo it away.

As to injuries, those can happen and do. Even with friendly playing they can snag a claw or bump into things. Even kids who just play can get injuries. Infections don't care whose claw cause the scratch. So I've had scabs and abcesses and not sure who caused it. Minor cuts that I notice get cleaned and watched. Any swelling results in a vet trip because I don't mess around with infections (just too much risk of it not healing properly or spreading). My guess is the light scratches are play and the deeper/bigger are from fights. Generally, in playing someone says "ow" they back off but "ow" sometimes accompanies actual injury. Whereas in fighting, if someone says "ow" they keep going until someone gives up and surrenders.
 

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I do feel that Charlie is going to try to bully him whether I bring him out for visits now or in a month. The cage will definitely help exposure, so I'm still going to use that. With Charlie's history, I know that whenever the time comes to have Finn out of the cage more, the bullying is going to pop up. It's probably a good thing that Finn won't allow himself to be bullied, but I just need to know that he won't keep fighting for the thrill of it. DO cats fight for the thrill of it??


I really envy your calm. I literally took some Kava Kava yesterday to calm myself down. I'm a tightly wound person on a good day. This cat introduction business stresses me.

Good point! I should have stepped into Charlie's line of sight yesterday when he started staring, before he started stalking Finn! Doh! Will remember that for next time.
Some Cats quite really do just like to fight just like some people do. It doesn't look like the case with Charlie though, if it was there would be no talking with Finn through the door, and no staring and stalking, it would pretty much be kill on sight.

It's not without risk. People like me are usually the ones who end up with cellulitis, or needing to make a Hospital trip to get stitches and an antibiotic shot because one of the Cats didn't appreciate someone intervening in their "fun", but it's easier for me to take that risk than to risk one of the Cats getting injured.

If you can stop it before it even gets to the point where it might get serious, all the better.
 
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Buffster7

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There is a really long complicated answer to that. Mostly involving that Rocket, the little girl on her back in the first video, gives off mixed signals and has a short temper. She gets serious sometime but the boys treat their little sister good and have learned to give her space when needed. The first video was the middle of a long play session involving lots of chasing and pouncing on each other. Rocket gave me an annoyed look and followed Link when he left the room just after this (Rocket laying and Link the larger top cat in the video). My read was he thought she was done from her behavior but she wasn't and followed him because they kept going for a few more minutes in the other room. They have never had a truly serious fight where they intend to hurt each other.

My guys do have outside access and have gotten in serious fights with other cats. So I do know the difference and recognize it. Never ever ever get in the middle of any cat fight regardless of the seriousness. In my house, I tell and the cats stop if I think it's getting too loud. I sometimes have to stomp my foot to get Rockets attention when she's in a mood but she snaps out when I make eye contact. If it's a true fight with neighborhood cats, my apperance is usually enough to break it up, my crew retreats to me and I pet them. The strange cat takes the hint and leaves or I stand and shoo it away.

As to injuries, those can happen and do. Even with friendly playing they can snag a claw or bump into things. Even kids who just play can get injuries. Infections don't care whose claw cause the scratch. So I've had scabs and abcesses and not sure who caused it. Minor cuts that I notice get cleaned and watched. Any swelling results in a vet trip because I don't mess around with infections (just too much risk of it not healing properly or spreading). My guess is the light scratches are play and the deeper/bigger are from fights. Generally, in playing someone says "ow" they back off but "ow" sometimes accompanies actual injury. Whereas in fighting, if someone says "ow" they keep going until someone gives up and surrenders.
Thank you so much for the good information! I'm reading and absorbing it all. It's good to know that just making noise can break up a fight?! Stomping or clapping? In my mind I see two cats locked in a death grip and me being unable to separate them with a broom. It sounds as thought fights aren't quite as much of a constant contact, then? I appreciate your response - thank you again!
 
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