I gots a wee bit of a ??? to ask ya...

[clixpix]

Originally Posted by Natalie_ca

Yes, pills and coffee: Not IV.

It's been known for decades that coffee helps with headaches. That isn't anything new.

What I'm saying is that this "Caffeine Drip" sounds like a placebo to me.

It really isn't ethical, but I've been in situations as a nurse where we have given patient's placebos IE: normal saline and told them it was morphine, when we felt the person was drug seeking. With the exception of a few people, the normal saline had a wonderous effect on their level of pain.

I'm not saying that anyone here is drug seeking!!! I'm just using the above example to show how a placebo can be given to someone and have very real positive results.

The fact that the pharmacist took the nurse aside and told her loud enough for you to hear that they are going to do something different and rare and unique or whatever the wording was, makes me believe that what was given was probably a normal saline bag with a label on it, nothing more.

You don't get a worldwide reputation by giving placebos. It's not a placebo. Also, as you said, it's unethical.

 

[natalie_ca]

Originally Posted by clixpix

Also, as you said, it's unethical.

Unethical and illegal are 2 different things. There are many things "unethical" that take place in the medical field. Ethics is as individual as people are. What is ethical to one, isn't necessarily ethical to someone else.

If whatever they gave you helped, that's the main thing, right?

 

[clixpix]

Originally Posted by Natalie_ca

Unethical and illegal are 2 different things. There are many things "unethical" that take place in the medical field. Ethics is as individual as people are. What is ethical to one, isn't necessarily ethical to someone else.

If whatever they gave you helped, that's the main thing, right?

No, they're not really different. If it's unethical, it's not allowed. If it's illegal, it's not allowed. Period. I guarantee you that such a facility would not risk their reputation by giving a placebo. Could you imagine if word got out? Their reputation would be ruined. If they told her she got a caffeine infusion, she got a caffeine infusion.

 

[mismaris777]

Originally Posted by Natalie_ca

Yes, pills and coffee: Not IV.

It's been known for decades that coffee helps with headaches. That isn't anything new.

What I'm saying is that this "Caffeine Drip" sounds like a placebo to me.

It really isn't ethical, but I've been in situations as a nurse where we have given patient's placebos IE: normal saline and told them it was morphine, when we felt the person was drug seeking. With the exception of a few people, the normal saline had a wonderous effect on their level of pain.

I'm not saying that anyone here is drug seeking!!! I'm just using the above example to show how a placebo can be given to someone and have very real positive results.

The fact that the pharmacist took the nurse aside and told her loud enough for you to hear that they are going to do something different and rare and unique or whatever the wording was, makes me believe that what was given was probably a normal saline bag with a label on it, nothing more.

I find this EXTREMELY offensive... It was NOT a placebo, trust me. A placebo I am sure would not cause me to rock back and forth, not be able to hold a pen, and wish for death. So think before you talk. I got a regular saline bag yesterday because I refused to get more of the caffeine crap, and I didn't feel the same way in the least bit. Yes, the regular saline IV drip does help my headaches a lot of the time, thats why I requested it and the doctors ordered it. It was my choice to do the caffeine thing- they just came up with the idea. The reason that they did this for me is basically because I don't drink ANY caffeine- don't drink soda, don't drink coffee, and rarely drink tea (plus the tea here has no caffeine lol as well as most other things because in MOST people, caffeine can cause the headache). The only reason that I heard the pharmacist talking about it was because I was listening in right outside the door lol. I'm extremely nosey like that. My room is the last one at the end of the hall, so there is NO way I would've been able to hear them discussing this if I weren't on the other side of the door listening in lol.

As for the drug seeking bit... I understand that entirely. I'll be the first to say that I used to be that kind of person, going into ER's just to get pain meds to relieve the pain, and then it got more and more frequent, etc. Ah, the life of an addict. But anyhoo.... speaking in general terms here.... if you're a drug addict out looking for some narcotics or benzos, this is NOT the place to do it. They would never and have never sent anyone home with a prescription for let's say Vicodin in their hand. It's against everything that they stand for. This place was created with the intentions of TREATING headaches, not curing them, not numbing them. Medication is just one part of this- they look at headaches from ALL angles. You have a psychiatrist, therapist, etc. the entire time you are here. There are also all sorts of groups to attend that are very good and led by knowledgeable staff. And it is also required that we go to biofeedback at least once a day (I'm an over-achiever lol I've been going more than once a day- heck I figure if I'm paying to be here, I may as well take advantage of it

plus one of the guys that runs it is SUPER cute lol)

So in general... to speak about this program the way that you are is incredibly offensive. I have complete faith in this program, and I can guarantee you that everyone else that has been in this program will say the exact same thing. This program/hospital unit has been around since I think like the 70s or something like that, and it has always been ahead of its times when it comes to treating headaches. I mean they use benadryl the same way that you would use morphine... who knew?! They would not stake their program on something trivial like this. They have worked way too hard and continue to work hard when it comes to the treatment of headaches. They want to see people get better, not suffer in their beds in agony from their headaches.

Originally Posted by LDG

...it also sounds like what Marissa experienced was no placebo!

Thank you for standing up for me!

Originally Posted by clixpix

You don't get a worldwide reputation by giving placebos. It's not a placebo. Also, as you said, it's unethical.

That's what I was trying to get at up above. They wouldn't stake everything they've worked for in the medical "world" on a placebo like this. And in order to be a part of a medical study, there are forms that you need to fill out or it is completely illegal in every sense. Like it's been said, it's just unethical.

Originally Posted by clixpix

No, they're not really different. If it's unethical, it's not allowed. If it's illegal, it's not allowed. Period. I guarantee you that such a facility would not risk their reputation by giving a placebo. Could you imagine if word got out? Their reputation would be ruined. If they told her she got a caffeine infusion, she got a caffeine infusion.

You're right- unethical and illegal kind of run together. They would NEVER give a placebo if there was so much at stake here, which would be their reputation and my quality of life. And they are very much in tune with the quality of life for their patients. They didn't get world-renowned doing nothing and sitting on their @$$. They had to work at it, and they continue to work at it.

All I can say is that I will NEVER EVER let anyone give me that much caffeine infused that fast and in such a high dose... It's no fun wishing for death. Yes, my headache got better, but I was also rocking back and forth lol

 

[nurseangel]

Giving placebos is illegal in the US, unless the patient is participating in some sort of research/study...and in that case informed consent would be required.

I am sorry you are having such a bad time. I used to work in neurology and I know there is almost no relief from a spinal headache until it resolves. I hope you feel better soon.

 

[mismaris777]

Originally Posted by nurseangel

Giving placebos is illegal in the US, unless the patient is participating in some sort of research/study...and in that case informed consent would be required.

I am sorry you are having such a bad time. I used to work in neurology and I know there is almost no relief from a spinal headache until it resolves. I hope you feel better soon.

See, I didn't want to say that it was illegal because I wasn't entirely sure about the details of medical testing and stuff here in the states. It's different all over the world. I do know that they do a lot of testing here, with informed consent of course, and I do know that this is a teaching hospital (like for instance a pharmacology student was just going over my discharge meds with me lol) so it would make sense. But I didn't sign anything so there is no testing on me right now

.... I will say this... that student that I just saw was pretty cute. Man, I love this hospital!

 

[dixie_darlin]

Originally Posted by mismaris777

So, as some of you know, I'm sitting in a hospital right now and have been here since last week Monday. Anyhoo- last night I had a horrible headache and I think that low CSF was the cause (I know what it feels like when it's low or high, or in between). They even had to call the house doctor to come and look at me- apparently I didn't look too hot lol. My neurologist just made his rounds, so I just saw him. He said that he was going to put me on a caffeine drip or something? idk exactly what he said, all I heard was caffeine and drip lol. I know that sometimes caffeine helps with my headache pain (I do not drink or consume any caffeine on a daily basis- hate coffee, hate soda) so I know that these headaches are not caffeine withdrawal headaches.

So my question is this... Isn't a caffeine drip going to make me feel very energized or even hyper? I mean, a little relief from this pain would be nice but I don't want to be literally running around the unit taking my IV pole on walks lol. Has anyone else had a caffeine drip type thing? I'm also kinda confused, because the benadryl that they are giving me (100 mg- apparently that's the max dose they can give to anyone so I must be in pain) for my headaches makes me super loopy and tired, but then if I have this caffeine drip, won't they kinda make my body confused? Because one medication is telling my body to sleep and don't get up you'll fall over, and the other one will be saying RUN!!!!!!!! AAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!

I did question my doctor this morning and he said that there shouldn't be that much of an interaction with the two drugs. Plus I'm in a one-of-a kind place that treats headaches and the docs here only really specialize in treating headache pain, so I totally trust what they recommend. It has worked so far, so I have no reason not to trust him.

What caused the low CSF? I had it cuz of my epidural and the only thing that helped was a blood patch

 

[mismaris777]

Originally Posted by Dixie_Darlin

What caused the low CSF? I had it cuz of my epidural and the only thing that helped was a blood patch

My case is extremely complicated.... sometimes I don't even understand whats wrong with me lol. I have a lumbar shunt and it has a magnetic programmable valve and sometimes, depending on what my body wants to do, the pressure goes up or down and it's either open too much or closed too much. It even changes due to the weather lol. I'm my own meteorologist

. My body has also become shunt dependent, meaning that I basically will never be able to functioin without a shunt (figured that out the hard way- he took it out and I got so sick I was puking up blood). My body just has this thing where it doesn't know how to absorb spinal fluid the right way, so it builds up. It's called pseudotumor cerebri- google it it's much easier to understand then lol

I've had lumbar punctures in the past (basically same concept as an epidural) and one of the times the hole wouldn't close up in my spine so it was leaking through the hole, and thats when I had my one and only blood patch. That is some hardcore stuff, blood patches. Low/high CSF headaches are the WORST- I can't handle it. When I get them, there are many nights where I just sleep on the bathroom floor cuz it hurts to get up everytime I need to throw up

 

[kiwideus]

Originally Posted by clixpix

You don't get a worldwide reputation by giving placebos. It's not a placebo. Also, as you said, it's unethical.

I was just thinking about this on the flight home...if someone received a placebo and was told they were getting a dose of X. Say, they go to another hospital or something and they give their medical history, including the dose of X that the doctor pretended to prescribe - what if the hospital prescribed that and the person had an adverse reaction to it, having never actually received it before? Wouldn't that cause serious ramifications?

My sister is a nurse in a neurosurgery ward and she said that they would never do anything like that. It is wrong. I would question the doctors that are giving placebos.

 

[myrage]

I'm sorry for what you are going through. I learned a lot reading this thread. I had no idea that caffine is good for headaches. I am allergic so I always steer clear of any meds that say Caffine. When I get headaches it's from my neck (had a neck injury when I was in my early 20s and the pressure gives me aweful headaches from time to time.), or my eyes straining. I'm farsighted and it seems my eyes keep getting worse. I sometimes have to close my eyes to relax them, then read as much as I can before they go out of focus, then repeat the process... it made taking tests HORRIBLE in college!

I hope you feel much better quickly. I also thank you for this thread, I love to learn new things.

Be Safe.