Human grade probiotics for cats - Enteric/time release Capsule or No Capsule/powder on wet food?

[sherv]

Hi everyone. New to this site and my first post.

We adopted Benny from a rescue beginning of December. Was in bad shape when rescued beginning of October but was nursed to health over a couple of months by the Rescue founder and foster before we adopted him. he was vaccinated, treated for mites and parasites etc. He was already neutered. He was put on vet GI food and had on and off soft stools as well as diarrhea. 5.5 yrs old.

We were told we could transition him to another food, which we did...a high protein, medium fat, low carb grain free food called Go! Solutions. Free feed dry kibble (never over eats) and wet twice a day, about 35g per feed. We transitioned over a week. He started to have on-off stool...some diarrhea, some soft, (both often odorous) some perfectly firm. Had him tested for parasites and bacteria as well...nil. Blood work when was tested at beginning of October was good. His stool continues to be on and off and I see no specific pattern.

Result was vet recommending hypoallergenic vet prescribed food, which after my research, I discovered (with all due respect) is lousy food (extremely high calories from carbs and other allergens) other than it has hydrolyzed protein (soy). Wasn't clear at end of 2 month test what that would tell me if it worked because it was not an elimination diet.

So I have decided to take matters into my own hands. I am putting him on a Limited ingredient diet for 8 weeks hoping I will see a positive result and then can start to rule out possible allergens. Kibble and wet has only one protein (turkey) and one vegetable (pea)....as limited as I could find in commercial cat food.

Now to the essence of the thread. I am also considering probiotics (Now Probitotic Defense and Jarrow SB) as part of the problem may be bacterial given he was outside when rescued. While they come in special capsules to protect from the gastric acids killing essential bacteria, if I am going to provide recommended half dose twice a day, I am short one capsule.

So the question is, should I also purchase separate empty enteric or time release capsules to ensure each dose has max bacteria survival rate by the time it reaches the large intestine, or is sprinkling half of the capsule powder over wet food sufficient?

Appreciate any thoughts or comments on this or anything above.

 

[pipperoo]

I had a kitten with some nasty gut bacteria. In addition to the antibiotics, I sprinkled S.Boulardi on her food (human grade, no specific amount or timing - just everytime i fed her, I sprinkled some on). Sometimes I would sprinkle on a probiotic of Acidophilis bifidus - no reason, just thought it might be worth it to give her a mix of probiotics.

I think you will be a-okay just sprinkling half a capsule. I like your approach with limited ingredient diet and probiotics. Good luck (and FYI - my little one has a stinky reaction to peas....i hope yours doesnt

p.s. S. Boulardi is being used in hospitals now to help patients suffering from c. difficile (my kitten have a variation of cdiff). I believe that it did a world of good for Pip. Her poops went from chemical warfare grade stink to mildly whiffy!!

 

[sherv]

Thanks for the response. I was thinking just giving it a try with no capsules and see how it goes.

Good to know about the peas, but if Benny's gets any worse (when it is bad that is), I think we are going to need hazmat suits LOL!! The other issue is that every time he has soft or even partially running stools, it often ends up on his fuzzy bum area (he's medium on verge of long hair), which results in a bit of an experience trying to wipe it before he sits everywhere in the house and makes a mess each time he does so. We joke, well kind of, that he needs a bit a shave in that region to minimize the mess. Thankfully we are working from home during the pandemic so we are acutely aware of when he's going to poop. He also has his tells (like bout of zoomies before) and is considerate by often meowing a few times in a row to announce "it's time".

 

[LTS3]

Now to the essence of the thread. I am also considering probiotics (Now Probitotic Defense and Jarrow SB) as part of the problem may be bacterial given he was outside when rescued. While they come in special capsules to protect from the gastric acids killing essential bacteria, if I am going to provide recommended half dose twice a day, I am short one capsule.

Where are you getting the recommended dose from? If it's from the probiotic bottle, ignore it. The dose on the bottle is for people, not animals.

Have you seen this? Prebiotics & Probiotics for Cats: Healing Inflammation and gut dysbiosis

 

[sherv]

That site in fact.

I would hope that most have sufficient intelligence to understand dosages for humans are not likely applicable to cats!

 

[sherv]

Hi everyone.

So its been two weeks since we started the transition to LI food and 1 week on probiotics and SB. Started with 1/4 capsule of each 2x per day sprinkled on his wet food. The decided to up the SB to 1/2 capsule 2x per day when I wasn't really seeing any results after 4 days and based on some advice I read on here. Since I started the transition, his stool, except for a few occasions, has been mostly soft tan colour to diarrhea in soft tan, with the occasional blood, from pushing to hard. (Vet confirmed previous pictures I provided to this being the cause and was not concerned ). Few times it was firm and slightly darker, but usually finishes with a small amount of soft or diarrhea.

I am almost at my wits end. I know it can take longer for a cat's body to adjust to new food. I suppose I am truly getting tired of having to watch for him going #2 because without fail, the watery stool ends up on his hind end fur (medium hair, even though we shaved it a bit shorter...yes we did), and I have to wipe him clean to mitigate having cat poop all over the house each time he sits. The cleaning I can handle, but I get frustrating because I see no light at the end of the tunnel. And its not his fault and I feel bad that as much as I encourage him that its okay, the process of cleaning him is stressful, and frankly, I would not blame him one bit if he starts associating pooping as being negative and tries to avoid or tries to go outside the box where he will not be seen, and thus go through the hind end cleaning procedure. Also, I worry that maybe this issue he is affecting him in other ways that he is just not projecting it...cats hide pain and discomfort very well. That said, he doesn't "seem" to be showing signs of distress...very relaxed, sprawls out on floor etc.

So, down to the heart of the matter. Should I stop probiotics and SB altogether and just stick to the food and see what happens? Is it possible he's slightly allergic to poultry/turkey (tried to get the rabbit as a novel protein, but company is having supply issues due to pandemic)? Should I wait longer before i throw in the towel and just go back to the vet for their crappy food?

Any guidance or advice would be appreciated.

 

[pipperoo]

Oh- I feel for you!
Now, its only been two weeks and I understand your frustration at not seeing improvement. I have a couple of questions and suggestions:

When you had your cat tested for parasites, did they do the Comprehensive Feline Diarrhea Panel using an actual stool sample? I know that there is a less comprehensive test, and if that's the one you had, it might have missed something. did the foster family experience this diarrhea? If so, I wonder how they dealt with it.

My cat was diagnosed as having C. perfringens enterotoxin (like a human C Difficile). So she had to be on antibiotics. Things improved and then when the antibiotics stopped, a couple of days later, the diarrhea and cow-pie poo started again. So we did a second course of antibiotics - all the while continuing with the probiotics. It was that second course of antibiotics that seemed to do the trick. So 2 x 10 days on abs - 20 days total with a little break in between, so nearly three weeks.of chasing her around and wiping up the drips......the things we do for love!

Pip was a rescue cat, and C perfringens is highly contagious, so likely she picked it up in the shelter, or eating raw/rotten food.

You might want to read this - symptoms sound so like your cat. I'M NOT A VET, so I don't want to diagnose, but I have the feeling that your cat can get better! food allergies are also a possibility as you noted, but my first steps would be to revisit the possibility of a gut bacterial infection.

Have you tried addiing a high-quality dry food to his diet, just to bulk things up a bit? Orijen is a very good brand that I am comfortable giving my cat.

good luck. I'm a wreck whenever things aren't right with my cat, so I understand.

 

[pipperoo]

sorry - forgot to add the link:
Diarrhea Due to Clostridium perfringens in Cats | PetMD

 

[sherv]

Thank you so much. I will look into this.

In answer to your question, we did two tests. The first was a swab from Benny's rectum which the vet then studied under the microscope while we waited. She was very precise in explaining that that test was specifically for bacteria...not for parasites. For the 2nd, yes, we brought in stool sample and not sure of all the tests they performed, but I suspect the standard battery, it came up negative. The vet did say the next course was the food for 8 weeks, then failing that, there were a number of more tests they could run....I don't even remember what at this point.

We had him on Go! Solutions Turkey Chicken Duck kibble, which is considered a pretty good food and rated right up there in terms of nutrition and ingredients as Orijen. We look at two sites as general guidelines for cat food reviews catfooddb and allaboutcats. High protein, moderate fat, which they need, and low carbs. We also fed him a mixture of the Go! Solutions wet, but mostly the Turkey Chicken Duck to match the kibble...seemed to like it the best. But lots of potential allergens. We tried their Limited Ingredient, but there are other proteins so they use limited very loosely. On Go Solutions, he was eating about 3/8 cup of dry free feed (we put out 1/2 cup and he rarely ate it all), and 70g of wet (spit between morning and evening). That was giving him about 270 kcals per day, about right for his size.

This limited ingredient is higher in carbs and he seems to want more of it, so he gets 1/2 cup and 78g per day wet.

Foster had him on what rescue provided which was the hills and royal canin GI food. worked mostly but not always she said. Still had loose stools.

One thing I forgot to mention is scratching. He has been scratching since we got him, not alot, but still seems too much for my liking. Areas include around neck front and sides, chin and sometimes cheeks. We checked for fleas even though he had all treatments, no signs. Vet confirmed. She also looked for rashes or redness, and she said, nothing out of the ordinary.

His demeanour seems good. Slept alot today but tonight he was very rambunctious. He loves to stock strings and he ran around changing a ribbon we have attached to a pole and stocking other objects under his tunnel etc. Very playful.

I think I need to give this time. Just not sure if introducing probiotics and the SB at the same time as new food was the right move and whether I should stop them for now.

Like you, we love our Benny to death. Aside from being a bit of a scaredy cat (he's getting so much better with time), he is such a good boy. We are sooooo very lucky to have him.

 

[pipperoo]

Hmmm. Yes the scratching could be a food sensitivity. Also scratching around face/throat/ears area can indicate dental issues.

Usual culprits for food sensitivities Chicken, some carbs (corn, wheat). They are hard to avoid.
fancy Feast pates are surprisingly okay—I had a diabetic cat that turned around with them. I like Performatrin Ultra turkey pate too I try to fit in some lamb, duck, rabbit, venison etc. Just to make sure Pip gets a variety so that she doesn’t get too picky or develop an intolerance. She eats mostly raw these days (frozen).

don’t give up. Sounds like you’ve still got some experimenting to do until you find the answer

 

[She's a witch]

I wouldn’t hesitate to up s.boulardi; I once had to use 3 capsules a day when my girl had diarrhea from antibiotics. It will not work with some conditions though, like B12 deficit and EPI.
I second PCR diarrhea panel, it’s by far the most reliable fecal test there is, your vet should be able to send the sample to the lab (I recommend Idexx lab). It seems there’s something going on and it’d be good to check it out. At this point in fact I’d request ultrasound, but PCR panel first.
I’d personally avoid dry food with his issues and also, chicken. The cleanest, least processed food would be the best, to rule out some cat food additives causing the issues (legumes, grains, gums etc). I’d even look into raw, I know lots of IBD cats that benefited from raw, if that’s something you’d consider.

 

[sherv]

Hi everyone,

Update. Results of Comprehensive PCR are back....good news bad news. Good news, I suppose depending on how you look at it, is the test found a positive hit, which gives us a path forward to potentially address the diarrhea. The first of two positive hits that does so is finding a high level of Clostridium bacteria in the fecal sample. So, tomorrow, starting with Metronidazole (anti-diarrheal antibiotic) for 2 weeks. Keeping fingers crossed that this actually makes a difference, although the vet warned me that even it it does, this bacteria may continue to recolonise days, weeks or months after treatment is stopped. But at least it is another path for us to follow. So thank you pipperoo for suggesting the PCR test.

The 2nd positive hit is the bad news. Feline Coronavirus positive. Thankfully, its biotype 1, not the full FIP. Supposedly 80-90% of felines actually have the virus. The issue is when biotype 1 converts to biotype 2 to become full blown FIP. The vet suggested that there is little known about what causes it to convert. She said she is not concerned at all because he shows no signs related to FIP.

So we are almost done week 4 of being full on the Instinct Limited Ingredient Turkey, kibble and wet. We have been giving him 1/4 capsule of the Now Probiotic Defense, 2 x per day. We also upped, the SB to 2 capsules per day but stopped when one night about a week ago, we forgot to add it to wet food and next day he had solid stool. Unfortunately, it was an anomaly, because we stopped the SB for the last 5 days but it has not made much of a difference mostly diarrhea or soft stool since. That said, neither really had an effect after 3 weeks. Vet said she does not see harm with the two products I am giving, but cannot comment if doing any good because they are not familiar with either product. She offered Fortiflora...I declined. Not sure if I should resume SB or not, or what quantity. Thinking about this...will do a bit more research.

We also started giving him about 1 tsp of pure pumpkin per day for two reasons: first we read that it may help with digestion and passing of any hair from grooming; and 2nd, to add some bulk to his food because he seemed to be eating more of this limited ingredient that is, admittedly, higher in carbs. The hair ball concern arose because he threw up a massive hair ...tube,...it was about 2.5" long by almost .5" diameter. He had thrown up a bit twice in the previous 6 days with some hair in it and this must have been the grande finale. We are grooming him at least once day, as much as he will allow, with good ole Furminator. Works great on his med-long hair. Keep joking that when I am done grooming him and ball the fur, I call them "mini-Benny's".

We talked about next steps, one being trying the hydrolyzed protein food (Royal Canin) for 8 weeks, just to eliminate the possibility that he may have a protein intolerance. I was honest about my thoughts on the food, politely of course, but I do understand that it is only a step to try to eliminate causes. So, if the antibiotic does not work, I may bite the bullet and try the vet food. Unfortunately, there are no commercially available foods that are hydrolyzed protein, so vet prices it would have to be. After that, could try other foods or more invasive, which I would prefer to avoid.

Anyway, that's it for now. Picking up and starting the meds tomorrow morning. Vet said she would check in at end of weekend to see how he is taking to the meds, and again after the 2 weeks, then evaluate and look at next steps depending on the impact on the diarrhea.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[sherv]

Oh, I also forgot to mention that she raised IBD and said that he is not showing any signs of it, and in fact, showing signs opposite of it. So she ruled that out.

 

[LTS3]

How about a novel protein food? Hydrolyzed protein diets are for food sensitivities / allergies. If the suspect protein is chicken (very common), then just feed a food with another protein such as rabbit or venison. It may take up to 13 weeks or so to see if diet is helping. There are quite a few brands of limited ingredient foods that have novel proteins.

 

[sherv]

He's not having chicken, so I will presume you mean poultry in general. Would love to find a quality limited ingredient novel protein food. But novel for Benny would have to NOT include chicken, turkey duck salmon lamb. And all the so called limited ingredient, are really not that at all. Dig in the ingredients, multiple proteins and other ingredients, that would make it difficult to narrow down source of potential allergens.

Wanted Instinct's limited ingredient rabbit, with only one protein, rabbit, and one legume, pea. But, has been out of stock everywhere online or in local stores since Feb...company confirmed supply issue due to COVID.

 

[LTS3]

See if you can get any of these brands in Canada:

100% Rendered Free Cat Food | RAWZ
BLUE Basics® Limited Ingredient Cat Food | Blue Buffalo
Limited Ingredient Diet - Grain Free Cat | Merrick Pet Care
Cat Food - Limited Ingredient Diet - Kohapet
Instinct Limited Ingredient Diet | Instinct Pet Food
Grain Free Wet Recipes - NutriSource Pet Foods (not exactly an LID food but some of the canned are novel protein)

Another option is a raw or home cooked diet. There's a forum here on TCS to get more info on those diets.

 

[sherv]

Thx. But looked at many of these already, and one you suggested is the one I indicated I am currently feeding him...the Instinct LID. Unfortunately, none of the others work because they are not truly limited ingredient ie. more than one protein, or are not novel for Benny.

100% Rendered Free Cat Food | RAWZ -not Novel, not LID in terms of proteins, contains eggs, also known allergen.
BLUE Basics® Limited Ingredient Cat Food | Blue Buffalo - no novel offerings, and most contain fish oil
Limited Ingredient Diet - Grain Free Cat | Merrick Pet Care - No novel offerings.
Cat Food - Limited Ingredient Diet - Kohapet - Difficult to find, but the rabbit contains New Zealand Green Mussel? How is this limited ingredient?
Instinct Limited Ingredient Diet | Instinct Pet Food - this is what I am currently feeding him in Turkey...no rabbit avail anywhere
Grain Free Wet Recipes - NutriSource Pet Foods - No novel, and has salmon oil

 

[pipperoo]

Hi Sherv - I'm so glad to hear that you got some answers from the diarrhea panel. Pip had the same results as Benny: Clostridium Perfringens and Feline Coronavirus! I am happy to say that she turns 6 in a couple of days and is healthy as a horse!! (she did have a pretty bad case of stomatitis as a youngster which resulted in having ALL of her teeth extracted.....but that's another story and did not cause her to miss a beat!).

Pip had to go through two courses of antibiotics. Just like your vet said: her c. perfringens seemed gone for a few days after we completed the antibiotics, but then roared back. We did a second course of antibiotics and I kept up the s. boulardi for a few weeks. After that: all was well. Happy ending.

You are trying a lot of things with your cat at the moment, so when things get better, it will be hard to determine what the culprit or the magic bullet was. Personally, I would keep up with the antibiotics, s. boulardi and possibly pumpkin (i would use powdered pumpkin, its shelf stable for evah!) . The LID diet can be hard to continue especially if there is supply-chain interruption. Is Benny still scratching?

Have you tried raw food at all? There are lots of health and digestive benefits - although the vet world still has mixed opinion. I am also in Canada, and I feed Pip "Red Dog Blue Cat". It is available frozen in the pet food stores. The first few times i fed it to Pip, she just sniffed it and walked away. The one day, i put it out, turned around for maybe 15 seconds, turned back and it was gone! When Pip eats mostly raw, her poops are nearly odourless RDBC comes in lots of varieties, and Venison is Pip's favourite. It might be worth buying one or two small packs and seeing if Benny goes for it.

I'm careful about carbs with my cat. My last cat loved her carbs and became diabetic, so I've been really careful ever since. Cat are obligate carnivores - meat eaters, so i try and concentrate Pip's diet on animal protein. (and honestly, for a real life-saver product, Fancy Feast pates are great to try. Inexpensive, readily accessible, low carb/hihg protein).

I'm having flashbacks just reading about your journey with benny. It just seems to parallel what I went through with Pip. And I am happy to report that all is well in her world now!!

 

[sherv]

Hi pipperoo,

I am happy to report that Benny has had 3 firm stools in a row over 3 days. That is a first in the 6 months we have had him (6 months exactly tomorrow). Thing is, the first of 3 was about 4 hours after his first dose of antibiotics, and vet said that usually takes 24 hours to take effect. So the firming of his first of three is unlikely due to antibiotics but other factors. Pumpkin? Adaptation to diet? Probiotics? Saccharomyces boulardi? All of the above? Who knows. But I am happy to see firm stool. Still, its only 3 days so until I see 5 or 6 days in a row, am I reserving my excitement,

On the antibiotics, did you use a liquid or capsule? Vet told me it is poultry flavoured so he should be okay. Not the case...absolutely hates it so administering is a battle and lucky if he gets full dose. Will foam at the mouth afterwards because he does not like the taste. Capsules? I asked vet if they were sized for a cat. Nope...human sized....what? Why can medicines not taste good or be sized for the animal they are going into??? Sorry, rant over.

S boulardi, may I ask how much you were giving Pip? Right now, I am giving 1 capsule 2 x per day while trying to kick this issue and while taking antibiotics.

On the pumpkin front, we took pure canned pumpkin, nothing added, no preservatives, spread on wax paper on a baking sheet into a thin layer of 2-3 mm or 1/8" and put in our freezer. Then we break the frozen layer into small chunks of about 1/2 to 1 tsp each, put in a ziplock and in the freezer again. At meal time, take a chunk out, put in the micro for a few seconds, or let thaw on its own, and mix in wet food. works well.

Scratching...yes. Comes and goes but usually his chest and neck area. Today has been particularly bad. Tried to check his skin but its hard to keep him still long enough to get through his longish fur in that area. Going to keep trying though. He is grooming more than I would like but hard to judge if he's grooming too much without a baseline.

Thanks for the tip on RDBK. I had not heard of it. I looked it up and it looks great. Unfortunately, it seems there are no suppliers in my city. Ugh. That said, we have been talking about getting a few fresh rabbits from the grocery store, getting some supplements and making our own and freezing it in portions. There are a few good sites, including this one, on raw food preparation including supplements. Of course, need to get a good grinder, and there are some recommendations. I don't think I am ready for making my own raw yet. Lots more research to do and so limited time. So, first step is to try to kick the diarrhea. If meds work, then I will look at switching food again to see if I can eliminate whatever ingredient to which Benny has mild allergy. If its environmental, well I am not so hopeful on figuring the source out.

Agree on the carbs. I was feeding Go! Solutions Turkey Duck Chicken kibble, and the equivalent in wet in their tetra packs, with some other flavours for variety. Benny was so so on the kibble but never over-ate because of the high protein. Loved the wet. Very high protein, low carbs, good amount of fat and good ingredients. Only thing I was not keen on is tapioca as a binder. I ensure he gets right kcal count for his weight and level of activity each day (measure out kibble, and weigh wet portions to the gram). I use catfooddb and allaboutcats as good sources of food ratings and ingredient analysis, as well as breakdown of kcals from protein, fat and carbs. Of course like anything, have to take it all with a grain of salt.

I am not overly concerned about the positive test for feline coronavirus. It is relatively common and most cats have it and the cat's humans ;-) probably don't even know it.

I want to thank you again for recommending the PCR lab. I might be pulling my hair out with no light at the end of the tunnel without it. I am a little surprised that the vet had not suggested it. Anyway, while I realize the antibiotics may not totally solve this issue, I am hopeful so far and it at least gives us something to try. Thanks again.

 

[Miamha]

Glad to see he is doing better. Metro/flagyl made my cat itch around her neck so maybe that will go away for yours when then course is finished too. I hope so. I'm convinced that it is impossible to give a full dose of metro to a cat. It has an unbearable taste to them. When they spit/foam, or you miss when they jerk their head away part way through, they are stuck with that horrid smell on their fur. It's a nasty process. I wish there were a better way because it can really help.