How will a blue point ragdoll and a white domestic shorthair's kittens look like??

[The Goodbye Bird]

Ragdolls have a somewhat different kind of long fur; it's very fine and not inclined to mat. Very different from a Persian's fur.

My part-ragdoll was softer than silk. That was the benefit. She didn't really have mats but she had to be brushed because she shed like crazy. Anything she lied on became a solid mat of cat hair, and this was with me brushing her 1-2x a week, usually 2. In contrast, my Oriental Shorthair mix rescue (who got the ultrashort, shiny coat!) does not shed at all, and she never needs to be brushed. If I ever breed cats (which I have wanted to do all my life) it's going to be pure registered OSH all the way. Not filling my house up with anything else. I don't want to deal with those cat hair floor mats again.

Personality in purebred cats isn't as predictable as it is in dogs. My mom has a purebred Ragdoll who doesn't like to cuddle, fights with the other cats, and kicks if you pick her up. They might be trying for the theoretical goes-limp-like-a-ragdoll type but it's not an exact science.

Well that's the benefit of having a litter. The OP has many to choose from. With a ragdoll dad there will almost certainly be at least one of the famous ragdoll temperament. (Unless... the dad was a spazcat.)

Your own cat having a litter is probably the easiest way on the established cat to get a second cat (though of course it's not advisable to make 3+ cats just to get 1). She will naturally love and accept her own baby. Some cats, though not all, will not tolerate a newcomer any other way, and some fewer cats than that are so anti-cat that they'll even start to hate and reject their own baby when it reaches adulthood.

 

[bella.cat]

Hello! Thank you so much for your replies, I’ve learnt a lot.
Here is a picture of the kittens. Bella and the kittens all seem happy and healthy but I will keep on checking up on them constantly. We are not entirely sure yet but we think that the blue/grey kitty in a girl and so is the white one with the least grey. All the others are boys. (We think so far).

 

[The Goodbye Bird]

She looks like she's a really good mother. The two females are both good choices if you want to keep one so you can see that spectacular ragdoll personality. I would say you're probably right about the genders simply because it lines up with getting extra males, which for some reason queens like to produce. No one knows why the ratio of males to females is high, but if you got 3:2, that's right in line with what you'd expect.

Spaying is probably the best choice but if you do decide to keep producing kittens and can find homes for them, why not retire the mum, keep the little white female, and let her carry on the legacy instead? This way you might get colourpoints, but I imagine the all-white ones go fast, so you would still continue to get white ones. Make sure she's not deaf, though.

What I would do to test deafness is wait until they're a little older and buy a box of cat treats that make a sound when you shake the box. Shake it, then give each cat some treats. Any cat this is not deaf will immediately perk up at the slightest rattle of that treat box once you've done it a few times.

 

[bella.cat]

Thanks you
Yes, that is a good idea to keep a female kitten and spay Bella.
I like the idea of testing their deafness with the cat treats.

 

[Willowy]

Deaf cats do fine as indoor-only housepets. I don't see any reason you'd want to weed out the deaf ones.

 

[bella.cat]

No, but in case any are deaf I will make sure that they o to owners that want indoor cats.
Hopefully Bella won't have any deaf kittens.

 

[The Goodbye Bird]

Deaf cats do fine as indoor-only housepets. I don't see any reason you'd want to weed out the deaf ones.

I just wouldn't breed the deaf ones. If she's going to continue producing kittens and can find homes for them, (and this is just my personal opinion) the little white female is better to do that because she now carries all the goodies from the ragdoll dad, unless the little one is deaf, in which case I would continue to go with Bella.

The little white one has a LOT of advantages, and it's ultimately up to the owner. Some breeders do work with dominant white and basically just say so what if they're deaf? I have to admit, dominant white is really gorgeous, especially on an Oriental Shorthair. I just wouldn't personally breed a cat with a known disability. I do have to admit though, that deafness might be a saving grace in disguise, more or less forcing an owner to keep it indoors, which is better for the cat anyway.

The little white female can make colourpoints, floofy kittens (which I imagine will go fast even though it's not my taste at all), and best of all (I'm biased lol) she could even potentially generate cats that were fully 3/4 ragdoll, without the long hair. Bella can't do any of that.

I'm ambivalent about dominant white. People like white cats because they're so beautiful, and there's not only nothing wrong with that, but every white kitten saves the lives of countless birds. There is only one thing that can make a cat a less effective bird murderer, and that's colour, and it really only has any effect if that colour is white. (I imagine, however, that muchkinism works too.) And like it or not, a certain percentage of people who those kittens are placed with will let them outside. Half of me says, well then, since there's a demand anyway, let the domestic cat population be [genetically of course] dyed white. Since it's a dominant gene, it doesn't require a very experienced breeder to micromanage COI (Coefficient of Inbreeding) and delicately balance exactly how much you're inbreeding just to get more white ones. In this case, you can get more white ones with a 0 COI, so in a way it's a no-brainer. The other half of me is sad for kittens that will never know the joy of being stimulated by sounds and having their pupils dilate, their butts wiggle, and their ears go forward like little cups, just from a sound.

My greatest wish about it is that people who work with the gene will someday successfully breed a version of it that either never, or very rarely causes any sort of deafness. There's not much to be done at the moment toward that end except simply selecting the dominant whites that aren't deaf over those that are.

I used to think my last rescue was deaf, because she wasn't afraid of the vacuum cleaner. (It wasn't even a white cat.) But she was highly food-motivated and would perk right up at the slightest rattle of that treat box, dumping the hypothesis that she was deaf down the drain. I'm still not sure why she wasn't afraid of the vacuum, though.

 

[Willowy]

The deafness isn't genetic, except in that every pure white cat with blue eyes has a high chance of being deaf (and pure white cats with non-blue eyes have about a 10%-20% chance). So it wouldn't matter if one bred a deaf blue-eyed white cat or a hearing blue-eyed white cat; their kittens would have the same chance of being deaf.

I don't think it's possible to breed out the deafness in white cats. As I said before, it has to do with how the pigment is distributed in the inner ear, and there's not a lot of pigment to go around in a white cat. Dog breeders have been killing deaf Dalmatian puppies for centuries and they still have a 10% rate of deafness, and they have the same kind of whiteness as white cats (other white dogs like Samoyeds have a different kind).

There is only one thing that can make a cat a less effective bird murderer, and that's colour, and it really only has any effect if that colour is white.

I can't say I've ever known a white cat that hunted, but then I haven't known a lot of solid white cats, lol. But that theory sounds a bit odd. Did somebody do a study? I can't find anything online.

 

[The Goodbye Bird]

The deafness isn't genetic, except in that every pure white cat with blue eyes has a high chance of being deaf (and pure white cats with non-blue eyes have about a 10%-20% chance). So it wouldn't matter if one bred a deaf blue-eyed white cat or a hearing blue-eyed white cat; their kittens would have the same chance of being deaf.

That's true unless something new crops up that has lessened the effect. Again this is just my opinion, but doing it the way Nature does it might well eventually give you that special something, and no one will know unless it's tried. Culling the puppies seems a little harsh though, especially since (I've heard, anyway) deaf dogs consistently fail to bark at all. Other than that I'm with the dalmatian breeders. Be rigorous. Keep trying.

I can't say I've ever known a white cat that hunted, but then I haven't known a lot of solid white cats, lol. But that theory sounds a bit odd. Did somebody do a study? I can't find anything online.

I saw it on a documentary. I believe it was called "the secret world of cats" though it might have also been the three-parter whose name I fail to recall at the moment. I'll try to find the study itself.

 

[Willowy]

Culling the puppies seems a little harsh though,

And they can't be tested until 6 weeks, and many breeders don't like the "guilt trip" of making the vet cry over repeatedly killing perfectly healthy, sweet, friendly, tumbly little 6-week-old puppies, so they "take care" of it themselves. . .I have an exceedly low opinion of Dalmatian breeders and people who support Dalmatian breeders. But my point was that even rigorous culling has not lessened the incidence of deafness, that's simply the nature of the dominant white gene. You can't control where the pigment goes in the ear, just like you can't control what cartilage goes wrinkly in a Scottish Fold.

 

[bella.cat]

I'm ambivalent about dominant white. People like white cats because they're so beautiful, and there's not only nothing wrong with that, but every white kitten saves the lives of countless birds. There is only one thing that can make a cat a less effective bird murderer, and that's colour, and it really only has any effect if that colour is white. (I imagine, however, that muchkinism works too.) And like it or not, a certain percentage of people who those kittens are placed with will let them outside. Half of me says, well then, since there's a demand anyway, let the domestic cat population be [genetically of course] dyed white. Since it's a dominant gene, it doesn't require a very experienced breeder to micromanage COI (Coefficient of Inbreeding) and delicately balance exactly how much you're inbreeding just to get more white ones. In this case, you can get more white ones with a 0 COI, so in a way it's a no-brainer. The other half of me is sad for kittens that will never know the joy of being stimulated by sounds and having their pupils dilate, their butts wiggle, and their ears go forward like little cups, just from a sound.

Thanks for your reply!
Yes, I agree with the white kitten being kept is a good idea.
The funny thing is is that Bella goes outside and successfully catches birds. (Yes, many people may disagree with me and think this is not a good idea, but she only stays in the garden most of the time, and doesn't go out too often...) Even almost 2 weeks before she gave birth, she somehow went outside, and managed to catch a bird! This surprised me as I was outside with her the whole time too, and didn't suspect anything until she brang me the poor little bird...I's quite sad....
But yes, generally white cats probably find it hard to catch birds, they are so bright!

 

[bella.cat]

And they can't be tested until 6 weeks, and many breeders don't like the "guilt trip" of making the vet cry over repeatedly killing perfectly healthy, sweet, friendly, tumbly little 6-week-old puppies, so they "take care" of it themselves. . .I have an exceedly low opinion of Dalmatian breeders and people who support Dalmatian breeders. But my point was that even rigorous culling has not lessened the incidence of deafness, that's simply the nature of the dominant white gene. You can't control where the pigment goes in the ear, just like you can't control what cartilage goes wrinkly in a Scottish Fold.

No....I'm not going to do anything like that....
The only reason why I would like to check the deaf ones is so they go to good homes where they are indoors!
I doubt any would be deaf though, but we will see.

 

[jefferd18]

Thanks for your reply!

The funny thing is is that Bella goes outside and successfully catches birds. (Yes, many people may disagree with me and think this is not a good idea,


Yes, and I am one of them. Please keep her from killing birds. Not only are the bird people raising hell about this but there has been talk in some states of going the route that Australia has taken to protect birds/small mammals from cats.

 

[bella.cat]

Yes, of course, I agree that bird catching isn't nice (Even though we aren't in Australia) and I do try to keep Bella from catching birds...even if they are in our garden. I doubt Bella will be out hunting birds for at least another 2 months...she is with her kittens.

 

[The Goodbye Bird]

So what do they look like now?

Anyway, what I do for my cats, because I believe they should be able to hunt, is I give them gypsy moths. They kill the gypsy moths and then devour them.

Gypsy moths are overabundant, invasive, nonpoisonous (in the US, it depends on what they feed on as caterpillars), and unlike killing a bird you're not killing a sentient being just to get your jollies.

I catch them with a fish net and let them out inside the house. I've never seen my cats so happy or stimulated.

 

[bella.cat]

Hi.

That's actually such a great idea!
I'll attach some pictures of what they look like now a bit later.
They are adorable! They are already starting to play a little bit.

 

[The Goodbye Bird]

They really start to get cute at around 2-3 weeks.

One thing I was batting around in my head with the dominant white and deafness, and how you could potentially be selecting against it by only breeding from animals that are not deaf is those disappearing grey spots and colour patterns.

Colour patterns of white spotting are heritable. While they're so inexact that a cloned cat will often not look like the cat it was cloned from because its spotting pattern is different, a tuxedo cat still looks like a tuxedo cat, and the altai spotting pattern has earmarks too.

I've seen kittens with those grey spots on the head right where the ears are.

Has Nature already done half my work for me here? Is there some reason this pattern has been selected for?

I'm thinking that there may be a heritable spot pattern in dominant whites (discovered, undiscovered, or even as yet uncreated) that causes those grey spots to cancel out the deafness, because the inner ears will have access to melanin while developing.

I'm starting on breeding Oriental Shorthairs soon and one of the breeders I've reserved a kitten from has a BEW (blue-eyed white) queen with good type. If my waiting spot lines up to pick first and the female with the best type is another BEW and it's not deaf, I'm going to go for it. I was going to avoid dominant white but this thread made me reconsider.

I may even try my hand at curing the condition. I'm wondering if it's possible to give melanin to a developing white and if so, if the cat would just go deaf later or if there's a chance it would have proper ear development and then be able to hear permanently. If this is a dead end road I'll just think of something else.

 

[lutece]

People have been trying to breed non-deaf blue-eyed white cats for many years... Generally it is believed that your best chance of getting hearing cats is to try to produce heterozygous dominant white cats that are masking colorpoint, because heterozygous white cats are less likely to be deaf, and you want the blue eyes to come from the colorpoint gene, not from the dominant white gene.

Lorraine Shelton has some advice and information here: PawPeds

Genetic testing is one way to determine if a cat is homozygous or heterozygous for dominant white, and if it is masking colorpoint.

 

[The Goodbye Bird]

Generally it is believed that your best chance of getting hearing cats is to try to produce heterozygous dominant white cats that are masking colorpoint, because heterozygous white cats are less likely to be deaf, and you want the blue eyes to come from the colorpoint gene, not from the dominant white gene.

I was thinking of this too. My thought process was, if the cat was already colourpoint, where could it possibly get non-blue eyes? Well, nowhere. The colourpoint would turn the eyes blue regardless. Plunk a white cloak on top of it and you have a Bella who is basically a non-blue-eyed white and not very likely to be deaf, whose eyes were turned blue by colourpoint anyway.

Oriental Shorthairs are the perfect breed to do this with.

I still want to see if there's another way.

I'm not above pouring over mountains of basically encrypted genetic data, comparing related BEWs that are not deaf to those that are (without being colourpoint) and seeing if I can find something.

If I can at least make some hearing BEWs by going colourpoint, then I at least have some.

If I can cure the condition by adding melanin to a developing white, then I at least have some.

But if I can figure out how to truebreed it without using genes at other loci or medical intervention, that would be the real pot of gold.

 

[lutece]

I was thinking of this too. My thought process was, if the cat was already colourpoint, where could it possibly get non-blue eyes? Well, nowhere. The colourpoint would turn the eyes blue regardless. Plunk a white cloak on top of it and you have a Bella who is basically a non-blue-eyed white and not very likely to be deaf, whose eyes were turned blue by colourpoint anyway.

Yes, this is basically the theory behind the "Foreign White" breeding programs of the past. Note that the blue eyes are not the same in both cases. Blue eyed white cats masking colorpoint can get their blue eyes from either the colorpoint gene, or from the dominant white gene masking the effect of the colorpoint gene. They can even be odd-eyed, with one deep blue eye and one pale blue eye. They would be least likely to be deaf if they have the colorpoint blue eyes, as this is the equivalent of a gold or green eyed white.