How to describe my cat's pattern

Gypsy Witch & Persephone

TCS Member
Thread starter
Young Cat
Joined
Jan 20, 2022
Messages
91
Purraise
166
Location
Quartzsite, Arizona
I know Persephone is a DSH however I wish to know how to describe the pattern on her abdomen. After reading the article on color and patterns, I still don't know.

She is black with rust undercoat which can be seen in sunlight. She has white tufts coming out of her ears. Is there a specific pattern name for the tufts? On her abdomen she has a large pure white triangle which was hard to photograph because she naturally assumed it was playtime. Is there a specific word for that pattern?

Out of curiosity. I have seen photos of Bombays. To my untrained eye they look just like black DSH. Can someone explain the difference between the two?
PXL_20220122_053240987.MP.jpg
PXL_20220122_053246987.jpg
PXL_20220122_054329414.jpg
 

Flybynight

TCS Member
Alpha Cat
Joined
May 24, 2020
Messages
496
Purraise
547
Hi,
I think the white is considered white spotting. But someone may have another term.
My black cat is a long hair, who also has a brown tinted coat in sunlight. I think it is fairly normal.
He has a white spot on his upper chest that I heard is termed a locket when in that location.
 

Meowmee

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
May 2, 2018
Messages
1,965
Purraise
2,092
I know Persephone is a DSH however I wish to know how to describe the pattern on her abdomen. After reading the article on color and patterns, I still don't know.

She is black with rust undercoat which can be seen in sunlight. She has white tufts coming out of her ears. Is there a specific pattern name for the tufts? On her abdomen she has a large pure white triangle which was hard to photograph because she naturally assumed it was playtime. Is there a specific word for that pattern?

Out of curiosity. I have seen photos of Bombays. To my untrained eye they look just like black DSH. Can someone explain the difference between the two?




She is gorgeous 😻 Her white patch on the belly is called a button, I guess as in belly button 😹 Those shimmery areas are just lighter reflections in her fur prolly. Bombays are a pure bred breed of all black cats which are related to Burmese cats, so if you look at them you may see some resemblance in some dsh black kitties who are not pb/pedigree. If you compare side by side pics it is easier to see what the differences may be. I will try to do a collage later. They usually have deep copper eyes I think. And the Burmese face is very distinctive, very different from Siamese imo even though they are related.

The Bombay Cat Looks Just Like a Mini Panther

Bombay cat - Wikipedia

Bombay | VCA Animal Hospitals
 
Last edited:

Maurey

Maine Coon Madness
Top Cat
Joined
Jan 21, 2021
Messages
1,529
Purraise
1,703
She’s a black solid cat with a locket 🙂 she doesn’t have enough white on her for white spotting, imo, given its location, so it’s likely the same recessive white gene that causes lockets on cats. The technical term is still a locket, even if it’s on the tummy, rather than the neck, to my knowledge. Solid black randombred cats without any white hairs are uncommon, which is thought to date back to the times when people were exceptionally superstitious, and culled any black cats that didn’t have white on them.
 
Last edited:

di and bob

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
14,794
Purraise
19,103
Location
Nebraska, USA
Bombays are registered purebreds and have the papers to prove it. Bombay is a breed. Tabby, points, and spotting all indicate color. Any cat without papers is considered a DSH or DLH (domestic short or long hair). To see red undertones is not uncommon in black cats, and often you will see faint stripes or 'Ghost' markings on a seemingly solid color cat in the sunlight because ALL cats carry the tabby gene, which is striping.
Your cat is absolutely stunning!
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #6

Gypsy Witch & Persephone

TCS Member
Thread starter
Young Cat
Joined
Jan 20, 2022
Messages
91
Purraise
166
Location
Quartzsite, Arizona
She’s a black solid cat with a locket 🙂 she doesn’t have enough white on her for white spotting, imo, given its location, so it’s likely the same recessive white gene that causes lockets on cats. The technical term is still a locket, even if it’s on the tummy, rather than the neck, to my knowledge. Solid black randombred cats without any white hairs are uncommon, which is thought to date back to the times when people were exceptionally superstitious, and culled any black cats that didn’t have white on them.
True. If there was any white on a black cat they considered it kissed by God and spared it.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #7

Gypsy Witch & Persephone

TCS Member
Thread starter
Young Cat
Joined
Jan 20, 2022
Messages
91
Purraise
166
Location
Quartzsite, Arizona
Bombays are registered purebreds and have the papers to prove it. Bombay is a breed. Tabby, points, and spotting all indicate color. Any cat without papers is considered a DSH or DLH (domestic short or long hair). To see red undertones is not uncommon in black cats, and often you will see faint stripes or 'Ghost' markings on a seemingly solid color cat in the sunlight because ALL cats carry the tabby gene, which is striping.
Your cat is absolutely stunning!
Thank you!
 

Maurey

Maine Coon Madness
Top Cat
Joined
Jan 21, 2021
Messages
1,529
Purraise
1,703
Also, re: Bombay looking like DSH — they don’t. People often mislabel black moggies as the breed, so they’re commonly the first thing to show up when you google them, rather than the actual pedigree cats (the cat they have on the wiki for the breed doesn’t look pedigree, either, black DSH). Bombay have a very distinct head shape, and always yellow to orange eyes, with copper being the ideal. The breed standard also doesn’t allow for white, and there are pretty strict requirements for how their coat should look, once they’re mature. Photo from TICA below 🙂

1642866725194.jpeg
 
Last edited:

Flybynight

TCS Member
Alpha Cat
Joined
May 24, 2020
Messages
496
Purraise
547
Lockets are on the neck/upper chest area, as I thought, which is how they recieved the term locket. As in a locket a person might wear as a form of jewelry.
What she has may be considered a button but I am not sure, as it seems too spread out but maybe. I think a button is likely smaller.

The white is from the white spotting gene. 🐾


COLOUR AND PATTERN CHARTS
 

Meowmee

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
May 2, 2018
Messages
1,965
Purraise
2,092
I know Persephone is a DSH however I wish to know how to describe the pattern on her abdomen. After reading the article on color and patterns, I still don't know.

She is black with rust undercoat which can be seen in sunlight. She has white tufts coming out of her ears. Is there a specific pattern name for the tufts? On her abdomen she has a large pure white triangle which was hard to photograph because she naturally assumed it was playtime. Is there a specific word for that pattern?

Out of curiosity. I have seen photos of Bombays. To my untrained eye they look just like black DSH. Can someone explain the difference between the two?View attachment 408407View attachment 408408View attachment 408409
Here is a great page with a video of a breeder with a bombay cat. She said there are only 15 breeders in the world now so they are very rare. They look like they have an even more exaggerated face than the Burmese at least this cat in the video- his face looks very flat almost Persian like. Anyway if you look at the pictures you can see that your kitty does not really look Bombay. Your kitty looks more angular and more like a narrow face oriental kitty look to me at least in those photos.

I did a collage to compare her to some of the other bombay pics. They can have golden yellow eyes as well as copper- like your kitty she seems to have pretty deep golden yellow eyes.

The pics I used, those in the double photo- their faces look flatter than burmese with a smaller nose than most I have seen as does the kitty in video.

Bombays were bred by Nikki Horner in 1953, she bred an American shorthair with a sable Burmese with the goal of trying to create a mini panther. I assume the American shorthair was pb but I am not sure. Another feature is that their fur is very black to the roots not like most black cats who have lighter grey tone roots.

Bombay Cat Breed Characteristics and Traits | LoveToKnow

View attachment 9D591CE9-6C3A-4E39-98F4-01D0FF68942D.jpeg
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #11

Gypsy Witch & Persephone

TCS Member
Thread starter
Young Cat
Joined
Jan 20, 2022
Messages
91
Purraise
166
Location
Quartzsite, Arizona
Here is a great page with a video of a breeder with a bombay cat. She said there are only 15 breeders in the world now so they are very rare. They look like they have an even more exaggerated face than the Burmese at least this cat in the video- his face looks very flat almost Persian like. Anyway if you look at the pictures you can see that your kitty does not really look Bombay. Your kitty looks more angular and more like a narrow face oriental kitty look to me at least in those photos.

I did a collage to compare her to some of the other bombay pics. They can have golden yellow eyes as well as copper- like your kitty she seems to have pretty deep golden yellow eyes.

The pics I used, those in the double photo- their faces look flatter than burmese with a smaller nose than most I have seen as does the kitty in video.

Bombays were bred by Nikki Horner in 1953, she bred an American shorthair with a sable Burmese with the goal of trying to create a mini panther. I assume the American shorthair was pb but I am not sure. Another feature is that their fur is very black to the roots not like most black cats who have lighter grey tone roots.

Bombay Cat Breed Characteristics and Traits | LoveToKnow

View attachment 408478
Thanks for this! When I looked at photos a few months ago I couldn't see the difference. Still seems slight to me but I see it now. Very interesting!
 

Maurey

Maine Coon Madness
Top Cat
Joined
Jan 21, 2021
Messages
1,529
Purraise
1,703
Lockets are on the neck/upper chest area, as I thought, which is how they recieved the term locket. As in a locket a person might wear as a form of jewelry.
What she has may be considered a button but I am not sure, as it seems too spread out but maybe. I think a button is likely smaller.
The technical term for any small spot of white not caused by the dominant white spotting gene is a locket. It’s most common on the neck or chest, but can happen anywhere on the underside of the cat, more or less. Locket is a catch all term used in cat fancy, and is often considered a mismark that either penalises or even disqualifies the cat, depending on breed. Lockets are recessive white, and can come from cats with no visible white markings. I have a cream solid cat with a locket on her chest that came from two red solid parents without a smidge of white, for example.

The less formal term for a locket on the stomach like OP’s cat is a bikini. The ws gene is unlikely to be involved here, as the spot is relatively small, and only in one location, which is the typical manifestation of a locket.

Buttons are the spots you get on the belly in tabby cats — nothing to do with white.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #13

Gypsy Witch & Persephone

TCS Member
Thread starter
Young Cat
Joined
Jan 20, 2022
Messages
91
Purraise
166
Location
Quartzsite, Arizona
The technical term for any small spot of white not caused by the dominant white spotting gene is a locket. It’s most common on the neck or chest, but can happen anywhere on the underside of the cat, more or less. Locket is a catch all term used in cat fancy, and is often considered a mismark that either penalises or even disqualifies the cat, depending on breed. Lockets are recessive white, and can come from cats with no visible white markings. I have a cream solid cat with a locket on her chest that came from two red solid parents without a smidge of white, for example.

The less formal term for a locket on the stomach like OP’s cat is a bikini. The ws gene is unlikely to be involved here, as the spot is relatively small, and only in one location, which is the typical manifestation of a locket.

Buttons are the spots you get on the belly in tabby cats — nothing to do with white.
That cleared it up for me. I was first told Persephone had a bikini marking but could not find it in pattern lists. Her marking is a very large white triangle on her abdomen. It's beautiful! I knew I would get answers her! Thanks!
 

Flybynight

TCS Member
Alpha Cat
Joined
May 24, 2020
Messages
496
Purraise
547
Read the link I posted Maurey Maurey
A locket is not random spots on the cats body. White spots/markings are caused by the white spotting gene.
 

Maurey

Maine Coon Madness
Top Cat
Joined
Jan 21, 2021
Messages
1,529
Purraise
1,703
Read the link I posted Maurey Maurey
A locket is not random spots on the cats body. White spots/markings are caused by the white spotting gene.
White spotting and recessive white/lockets/wild phenotype are different genes. The term locket is used to refer to a single spot of white not caused by the dominant white spotting gene. Not all white is the same. Again, I have a cat with a white locket, pedigree, and both her parents have no white on them. Hence, a gene for recessive white causing her locket. It’s not an uncommon occurrence in randombred cats, either. Locket is the technical term used in cat fancy for a cat with a small white marking when they don’t genetically have the Ws gene, regardless of location. Colloquially, these names may be different.

If you need a link to believe me, this mentions the “wild phenotype”, which is unlinked to white spotting. White Cats, Eye Colours and Deafness

As mentioned here, there are various mutations on the KIT gene that cause various expressions of white. Epistatic white, white spotting, the recessive Birman gloving gene, and the currently unknown gene that causes locket and brisket markings. W locus (Dominant White and White Spotting) - Cat Coat Color - AnimaLabs©
 
Last edited:

Flybynight

TCS Member
Alpha Cat
Joined
May 24, 2020
Messages
496
Purraise
547
We will have to disagree, all the sources I read say different.
 

Maurey

Maine Coon Madness
Top Cat
Joined
Jan 21, 2021
Messages
1,529
Purraise
1,703
We will have to disagree, all the sources I read say different.
The source you linked agrees with me, though. The first source I provided is from the same website and by the same author. Same thing is also mentioned on the source you linked me ("Although white spotting is depicted as a continuous series from no white through to wholly white, there are believed to be genes, not yet identified, for the white throat locket and white brisket spots. When bred together, cats with a white throat locket and/or white brisket spots do not produce cats with higher degrees of white spotting because they do not have the main white spotting gene.")

Also see this part of the chart:

1643367908421.png


Given that lockets, white toes, etc, are extremely common to pop up in Siamese (and related breeds) when their parents don't have white, and lockets are a show fault with many other breeds, including Maine Coon, I don't see why you're so resistant to the idea of recessive white causing lockets. Especially when there's a known recessive white marking gene that can be tested for, Birman Gloving.

Where do you suppose my girl's white locket came from if both her parents are red solid without white? Ws, white spotting, is dominant.
 
Top