How much liver is too little liver?

daftcat75

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I made a 1 lbs batch recently (and will continue to make 1 lbs batches until I stop making mistakes like this.). I thought everything went very smoothly from grind to portion, package, and refreeze with a happy kitty taste test in between.

And then I washed the grinder. About half to 3/4 of the liver portion was wrapped around the auger and not cutting through (or cutting through very slowly.)

I’m not terribly concerned about this batch because a) she only eats 1 oz of it out of a daily 7 to 8 oz of food, and b) because it’s 1 lbs, she’ll be done with this batch before next month is out.

But...

Just to put my mind somewhat at ease...

How little liver is too little?

I don’t know for sure. But I estimate this batch is 2 - 5% liver instead of the 10% I was aiming for. She enjoys it all the same and her recently over-active pooper probably doesn’t need the extra liver. ;)
 

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This isn't really an answer to your question, but it's an interesting perspective;

 

Azazel

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My own rule is to not go below 5%. I currently do about 8% liver, but mschauer did have a recipe where she used 6% and her nutrient analysis met all of the AAFCO minimums. I think it also depends on the supplements and other ingredients you are using, particularly if you're also using egg yolk for Vitamin A.
 
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daftcat75

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I'm reviving this thread rather than posting a new one.

How does the inclusion of kidneys affect the amount of liver required? And the omission of egg yolk?

I make homemade raw out of rabbit. I buy whole fryers. They come with liver and kidney. But sadly, no heart.

I make 1 lbs batches. I always add the kidneys without thinking about it. They are 15 grams for the pair or 3% of a lbs. Do I still add 5% liver or can I possibly reduce that amount? I suspect my old girl is having trouble with fat and I'd like to reduce the amount of liver, if I can, to test this theory. I made a batch of Alnutrin, which she loved, which only asked for 14 grams of liver (3%.) But Alnutrin has egg yolk which I have determined is a trigger for her.

So 5% because I'm not including egg yolk?
 

Willow's Mom

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My understanding is that cats should have the same basic 80-10-10 ratio as dogs, but I'm still too confused about bone and supplements to go all out DIY for Willow.

For my dogs, though, I am shooting for 5% liver and 5% kidney or other secreting organ. Willow loves her organs so maybe Krista does too.
 

kittyluv387

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Kidneys is a secreting organ, so it should count towards your 5% organ requirement and you can add less liver. I think most just assume we'll use liver because it's the easiest organ most people can get a hold of. But not sure. Maybe another analysis is required? The heart would count towards your muscle requirement anyway and not organ.

Edit: I retract my statement about kidney being part of the 5%. Liver and kidney probably provide different nutrients. When in doubt look up their nutrient profiles.

I remember alnutrin asking for 5-7% of liver depending on where you look. On the package it's 5%. But elsewhere on the website it's 5 or 7.

It does seem like egg yolk provides the same nutrients as liver per the analysis mschauer gave me. Except it provides ALA and liver doesn't. Not sure what ALA is.
 
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Azazel

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I am also under the impression that liver and kidney can be used interchangeably. I have heard that ideally you want your 10% organs to be composed of 5% liver and 5% kidney. You could look up the nutrient profiles in the USDA database and compare.

Just ensure you add taurine if you are not using any fresh hearts.
 

kittyluv387

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I am also under the impression that liver and kidney can be used interchangeably. I have heard that ideally you want your 10% organs to be composed of 5% liver and 5% kidney. You could look up the nutrient profiles in the USDA database and compare.

Just ensure you add taurine if you are not using any fresh hearts.
You would want to add some taurine even with fresh hearts. Wild cats get a ton of taurine from mice hearts (not brain) I think. Other meats, hearts, livers and hearts don't contain as much. Plus they just pee the excess out.

I didn't think organ had to be strictly 10%? Thought it needed to be 5-7% of the muscle meat weight per alnutrin's requirements. But maybe that is the case because of egg yolk and if you don't use yolk you need to add more than 5-7% of the muscle meat weight.

Edit: I also agree I think you should compare kidney nutrients to liver nutrients. I think I remember with the 80-10-10 rule at least 5% has to be liver and the rest could be something else. But I don't follow the 80-10-10 rule it doesn't seem to be necessary with some recipes.

Edited a million times lol.
 
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daftcat75

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I can't find nutritional facts on rabbit kidneys specifically. But comparing beef liver with beef kidneys, I see about a factor of 10 difference in Vit A between liver and kidney. Definitely not interchangeable. But kidney does seem to be on par with egg yolk for Vit A. The inclusion of the kidneys seems to be more of an egg yolk replacement.

I think I will split the difference between the half oz Alnutrin asks for and 5%. So about 20 grams for a 1 lbs batch.

I add 1000 mg taurine to my 1 lbs batches.

Krista also only gets 1 oz a day of my homemade out of a total 9 to 10 oz of food she eats. But if I can be convinced (the proof is in the pudding poops, or hopeful lack of them) that she can handle more, I'd love to use the homemade to offset the high fat canned she eats (Rawz rabbit pate.)
 

kittyluv387

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I can't find nutritional facts on rabbit kidneys specifically. But comparing beef liver with beef kidneys, I see about a factor of 10 difference in Vit A between liver and kidney. Definitely not interchangeable. But kidney does seem to be on par with egg yolk for Vit A. The inclusion of the kidneys seems to be more of an egg yolk replacement.

I think I will split the difference between the half oz Alnutrin asks for and 5%. So about 20 grams for a 1 lbs batch.

I add 1000 mg taurine to my 1 lbs batches.

Krista also only gets 1 oz a day of my homemade out of a total 9 to 10 oz of food she eats. But if I can be convinced (the proof is in the pudding poops, or hopeful lack of them) that she can handle more, I'd love to use the homemade to offset the high fat canned she eats (Rawz rabbit pate.)
I say compare chicken. Beef liver is supposed to be the most nutritious food in the world. So maybe using beef organs to compare might not be good. Plus rabbit is white meat.
 

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You would want to add some taurine even with fresh hearts. Wild cats get a ton of taurine from mice hearts (not brain) I think. Other meats, hearts, livers and hearts don't contain as much. Plus they just pee the excess out.

I didn't think organ had to be strictly 10%? Thought it needed to be 5-7% of the muscle meat weight per alnutrin's requirements. But maybe that is the case because of egg yolk and if you don't use yolk you need to add more than 5-7% of the muscle meat weight.

Edit: I also agree I think you should compare kidney nutrients to liver nutrients. I think I remember with the 80-10-10 rule at least 5% has to be liver and the rest could be something else. But I don't follow the 80-10-10 rule it doesn't seem to be necessary with some recipes.

Edited a million times lol.
Yes, I add extra taurine anyway, but I know some people only use hearts.

I don't use 10% organs - I didn't mean that it has to be strictly 10%, I meant that I have often heard that the 10% organs that people refer to in the 80-10-10 ratio should ideally be half liver and half kidney. Whether there is any truth to this I don't know. But I use about 6% liver only.

Edit: I do add 4 egg yolks though.
 

kittyluv387

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Yes, I add extra taurine anyway, but I know some people only use hearts.

I don't use 10% organs - I didn't mean that it has to be strictly 10%, I meant that I have often heard that the 10% organs that people refer to in the 80-10-10 ratio should ideally be half liver and half kidney. Whether there is any truth to this I don't know. But I use about 6% liver only.

Edit: I do add 4 egg yolks though.
Yes I think the egg yolks do seem to supplement the liver portion. Knowing your posts, I figured you have your bases covered. Just wanted to make it clear for any readers.
 

kittyluv387

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I can't find nutritional facts on rabbit kidneys specifically. But comparing beef liver with beef kidneys, I see about a factor of 10 difference in Vit A between liver and kidney. Definitely not interchangeable. But kidney does seem to be on par with egg yolk for Vit A. The inclusion of the kidneys seems to be more of an egg yolk replacement.

I think I will split the difference between the half oz Alnutrin asks for and 5%. So about 20 grams for a 1 lbs batch.

I add 1000 mg taurine to my 1 lbs batches.

Krista also only gets 1 oz a day of my homemade out of a total 9 to 10 oz of food she eats. But if I can be convinced (the proof is in the pudding poops, or hopeful lack of them) that she can handle more, I'd love to use the homemade to offset the high fat canned she eats (Rawz rabbit pate.)
If you're concerned about the fat I wouldn't even worry about reducing organ content in your rabbit recipe. Pure rabbit has very little fat anyway. Those Rawz cans are mostly fat. I've seen their nutrient analysis. I say have confidence in your food making. Follow alnutrin's guidelines and have it be a larger portion of your cat's diet. If you really believe the fat is the problem the homemade rabbit will help a lot.
 
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daftcat75

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If you're concerned about the fat I wouldn't even worry about reducing organ content in your rabbit recipe. Pure rabbit has very little fat anyway. Those Rawz cans are mostly fat. I've seen their nutrient analysis. I say have confidence in your food making. Follow alnutrin's guidelines and have it be a larger portion of your cat's diet. If you really believe the fat is the problem the homemade rabbit will help a lot.
It's hard to know what's helping these days. Because of her IBD, we're stuck with Rawz. Everything else will eventually make her react. But we haven't had solid poops in a long time. We've been trying pred for the last month. I finally convinced a vet to let us try chlorambucil without subjecting her to a biopsy.

But it's also going to be hard to make it a larger part of her diet until I find a more affordable source of rabbit leg meat besides buying whole fryers. Right now, it costs me about $75 per batch because it takes me 2 fryers to get 1 lbs of leg meat. Other cuts are too rich for her and makes her regurgitate. The Alnutrin batch came out beautifully and she loved it. But the egg yolk was contributing to double-ended blowouts. She hasn't had one of those since I switched her to homemade. For a recipe, I take one of the 5 or 6 lbs batch recipes and divide by 4. Except the B's. Dividing the B's by 4 comes out to a B-50 which is more than she cares for. I use half a B-50 instead.

I think I will have to try more raw. My best bet for affordable leg meat requires a large order of legs from New Jersey to offset the shipping.
 

kittyluv387

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It's hard to know what's helping these days. Because of her IBD, we're stuck with Rawz. Everything else will eventually make her react. But we haven't had solid poops in a long time. We've been trying pred for the last month. I finally convinced a vet to let us try chlorambucil without subjecting her to a biopsy.

But it's also going to be hard to make it a larger part of her diet until I find a more affordable source of rabbit leg meat besides buying whole fryers. Right now, it costs me about $75 per batch because it takes me 2 fryers to get 1 lbs of leg meat. Other cuts are too rich for her and makes her regurgitate. The Alnutrin batch came out beautifully and she loved it. But the egg yolk was contributing to double-ended blowouts. She hasn't had one of those since I switched her to homemade. For a recipe, I take one of the 5 or 6 lbs batch recipes and divide by 4. Except the B's. Dividing the B's by 4 comes out to a B-50 which is more than she cares for. I use half a B-50 instead.

I think I will have to try more raw. My best bet for affordable leg meat requires a large order of legs from New Jersey to offset the shipping.
Can you order from Hare Today? Hare Today is expensive but what you're currently doing is even more expensive! Yes a larger order will be required to offset shipping. If she's sensitive to egg yolk then you'll just have to omit that and increase the liver. I think if that doesn't end up in blowouts you can increase the percentage of homemade.

You could do skinless turkey thigh as well. Maybe add in a little bit of turkey breast if you're concerned about the fat.
 
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daftcat75

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Can you order from Hare Today? Hare Today is expensive but what you're currently doing is even more expensive! Yes a larger order will be required to offset shipping. If she's sensitive to egg yolk then you'll just have to omit that and increase the liver. I think if that doesn't end up in blowouts you can increase the percentage of homemade.

You could do skinless turkey thigh as well. Maybe add in a little bit of turkey breast if you're concerned about the fat.
I’m sticking to rabbit right now. I want to keep it simple and single protein so I’m not left guessing any more than I already am.

I don’t know what meat is in the HT grinds. But Krista doesn’t like them.

9 oz of Rawz a day isn’t cheap either. I think I’ll have to make one more batch from whole fryers. Then I’ll order legs from Fossil Farms if she does well with increased raw.
 
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