How long to give food to see change?

[tyleete]

As it says in the title, wondering how long ttyl you usually see a positive effect before you know to scrap it and try (yet another) diet?
My boy has been IBD since I took him in about 7yrs. He did well on Hill's WD for a couple years, then came the pandemic and hills changed their formula. He's not had solid still since! I've tried lots of diets in between their emergencies.
He's currently on a baked chicken diet +EZ Complete. I've transitioned him to just this and he's been solely on the chicken only the last week.
So how long till I give up? I'm just so sick of the diarrhea mess. And can only imagine how he must feel.
Thanks!

 

[Carteave007]

My cat also had chronic diarrhea. Take it to the vet & see if they can get you a perscription diet. Some cats cannot break down “normal” proteins such as chicken, beef, salmon, tuna, etc. some can only break down very basic meats such as rabbit & venison & duck. So I took my girl to the vet & they prescribed her Royal Canine Selected protein and I’m pretty sure it’s duck. But anyways, after about 2 weeks I noticed a slight improvement and after 1 month it was regular poops. And she had literally never had a normal poop before that, and we ruled out things like giardia or other sicknesses. So it could be that their stomach doesn’t like those typical proteins. Worth a try.

 

[Furballsmom]

he's been solely on the chicken only the last week.

I may be misunderstanding your post, but just in case I wanted to mention that the baked chicken alone doesn't have enough nutritional value for him, as an example it doesn't fulfill the requirement of taurine. You will need to get him on either another premix similar to the EZComplete, or as mentioned a prescription diet immediately, although there might be other options;

Have you tried novel protein foods? I've copied some of this information below from a couple of LTS3 's posts;

Minimally Processed Natural Cat Food Archives | RAWZ

Also, Margot Lane uses Farmina which has a variety of novel protein foods.

Here are a couple of websites if you haven't seen them already;

IBDKitties – Helping Save Lives…One Paw at a Time

Feline IBD

 

[LTS3]

13 weeks usually for a food trial.

Chicken is known culptrit for IBD symptoms like diarrhea. Can you use a different protein with EZComplete? You can try turkey but some IBD cats are sensitive to all poultry. A butcher shop would have rabbit and other novel proteins.

A S. boulardii product will help for the diarrhea. There's info here: Prebiotics & Probiotics for Cats: Healing Inflammation and gut dysbiosis

Is your cat on any medication to manage the IBD? Have you discussed the ongoing diarrhea with the vet?

 

[lisahe]

Pork is another good protein to try. Don't forget, too, that there can even be ingredients in the EZ that can cause problems. Something in there -- I'm 99% sure it had to be the mussels -- was making one of our cats barf. She was fine a few days after I took the EZ food out of her diet.

 

[tyleete]

I'll try to touch on all the comments.
1-I am feeding baked chicken, but wrote about using EZ Complete daily with it. I realized I'm not talented enough to make a complete meal.
2-He's (Midnight) been to a vet and had all the bloodwork done. Found out he was also hyperthyroid. He's been given meds & has been regulated to good numbers they tell me. Though he's STILL always hungry.:/ I feed him enough for 2 cats! And he's only gained half a pound in recent months. He got down an awful 6.13lbs. He's still all skin and bones at 7.7lbs.
3-He's been on s.boulardi for months now, twice a day. Hasn't made a difference for either of my IBD cats. But I'd heard it's a good thing and won't hurt them, so kept both on it.
4-I tried him on duck with no difference, but didn't do it for 13 weeks either before giving up though. And it was dry. A limited ingredient duck that I couldn't get in wet. I know that's better. I don't even know where a butcher is. But if they sell it did that I can tell what it is? There's no way I could serve that you. I got disgusted when I tried cooking whole turkey or chicken in the past for bone broth. Almost threw up deboning it. I have cute bunnies and deer running around my place and only feed venison once to a sick & dying cat who didn't want to eat.
5-I really HATE Rx foods. I don't trust them, especially RC. I had 3 cats on SO and they all suddenly started becoming sick. Found out in their own website, lots were suddenly becoming ill. I'm going to try another Hill's of this doesn't work. Heard one (not biome, he tried that) works pretty well.
I do have a question concerning the EZ Complete if anyone knows?
I feed him 1oz minced/baked chicken each meal (he gets at least 6 of these a day), then I add 2tbs of broth I got from cooking it + 1tbs of water and the Complete. It's 1oz before all the juice. 2.5oz after everything's added.
So am I feeding him a total of 1oz or 2.5oz? For a total of 6oz or 15oz all day? As I'm trying to fatten his butt up, it's seems important to know.
Also, can I give him too much EZ Complete? Since I feed him so much and so often? I give him almost a full scoop with each meal. But like I said, he's eating at least 6oz worth every day. Don't know if he can od on this stuff and vitamins/nutrients.
Thank You for all the info! I'll go look at those articles.

 

[FeebysOwner]

He's (Midnight) been to a vet and had all the bloodwork done. Found out he was also hyperthyroid. He's been given meds & has been regulated to good numbers they tell me. Though he's STILL always hungry.

I can't speak to too many of the issues you are facing, but please do look at the link that Furballsmom gave for Feline- IBD (Raw Feeding for IBD Cats - Feline IBD), I think it covers some other options for supplements in lieu of EZ Complete, should that be part of the issue. It may also have other valuable information for you about protein sources.

Regarding the hyperthyroid treatment. Some vets tend to think as long as the number is 'in range', then it is good. But, that is not always the case for all cats. So, know the numbers yourself, and see just where his T-4 is, where it originally was, and how that has changed with the medications. It also needs to be re-checked, numerous times, and the meds adjusted accordingly.

Also, many IBD cats have absorption issues, so if you have not had your cat's B-12 level checked, that is another thing to consider, at least in terms of his weight. As I understand it, malabsorption can cause a cat to feel hungry too (not to mention diarrhea).

 

[Carteave007]

My Cat Eats A Lot But Can't Gain Weight | BeChewy
I’m sure you’ve searched this a million times & the bloodwork probably ruled out diabetes? But that can be one thing that can make them eat a lot and not gain weight. Does he drink and pee a lot? That’s another sign of diabetes. There’s some other things listed there as well. I do know that for Ruby, it took about 1 month to see changes in her poop & the vet told me it could take 1-2 months. I’ll have to look into what you mean about royal canine, this stuff is so expensive (1,672/year) & i really thought I was giving her the best. I just don’t know what other options there are and I’m don’t think I’d feel comfortable making her food myself.

 

[LTS3]

Koha has a canned LID duck in various textures: Minimal Ingredient Cat & Dog Food, Moisture Rich Nutritional Pet Food

This Lotus duck isn't LID but may be an option: Lotus Pet Foods

Merrick has a LID duck: Limited Ingredient Diet Grain Free Real Duck Recipe Pate 5oz Can Wet Cat Food | Merrick Pet Care

Hounds and Gatos: Duck & Liver

Rawz: 96% Duck & Duck Liver Pate | RAWZ

I'm sure if you Google for butcher shops in your area you'll get some results. They don't sell mystery meat. Everything is labeled just like at a supermarket. Get friendly with the butchers and let them know exactly what you want and the type of cut etc. If they don't normally sell a particular protein or cut, they can usually special order it. Don't buy ground up meat. Buy whole cuts and cut it up yourself at home.

I wouldn't fed by ounces per meal. You need to feed by calories. The current 1 oz portions of food may not have very many calories hence why your cat is always hungry despite eating 6 oz daily. It's like 1 oz of a salad vs 1 oz of a hamburger. The hamburger is more calorie dense and will keep the tummy happy longer than the salad.

A scoop of EZComplete (using the included scoop) is 9.31 calories. I'm not sure how many calories 1.5 oz of chicken adds. It may depend on the cut (breast, thigh, etc). It looks like you are using the individual portion instructions than the big batch instructions? You'll need to double or triple the individual portion size to increase the calories. lisahe do you know how many calories 1.5 oz of chicken in an EZComplete recipe is?

IBD cats also have low levels of B12, which someone has mentioned above. B12 injections are needed to help the body process nutrients more effectively. The vet has to specify a B12 test when submitting blood work.

 

[tyleete]

Ok, I've been to this site that reports on the different cuts of chicken and it says this:
A 3.5-ounce (100-gram) serving of chicken breast provides 165 calories, 31 grams of protein and 3.6 grams of fat.
I don't even know how many calories he should be getting daily. Sadly, I've never looked at the calories. How does one figure that out?
And thank you for the thoughts about thyroid levels and b12. I called the bet this morning and told her my concerns. He's got an appt Wed bright and early for (yet another) tsh test. Yeah! She said we could always "put him on b12". But aren't there tests to show IF he need it? I don't know if she's just trying to save me money, as thanks to all my rescues I'm continually broke.:/ And is there a way to give it withOUT it being via shot? This cat is sweet and calm and loving. Comes running and purring. But he also acts the most feral. This after many years with us. To get him in a carrier? I always end up permanently scarred. Last time he gave me an over 5" gash up my forearm. So... yeah. I can't imagine shots (especially daily) being a option with him.
Thanks everybody!

 

[lisahe]

Personally, I'm not much of a calorie counter so at this point, I wouldn't worry nearly as much about the calories as just getting Midnight to eat consistently without symptoms so he can keep whatever calories he eats in his body and stop losing weight.

If he's eating very low-fat chicken breast, you could increase the fat by feeding (as LTS3 suggests) thighs instead. (If, that is, he'll eat chicken thighs: our cats hate them! I've been known to add pork fat to chicken breasts for cat food, though.) Again, pork can be a nice option, particularly if a cat can eat fat without issues. If fat's an issue, pork tenderloin can be a good option. As LTS3 mentions, "calorie dense" is a good thing.

Also on supplements, we use Alnutrin, which is very simple, without the mussels. It also doesn't include liver, meaning you have to add liver, though that's not a big deal since you could use freeze-dried liver treats instead. I add a few things to our cats' Alnutrin meals: pumpkin, more egg yolk (probably not a good thing for you since it helps motility), and fish oil.

Finally, I wasn't really clear about the question on how much EZ to use but just in case: the amount of supplement is determined by the raw weight of the meat.

I hope the vet appointment goes well and you don't end up with more scars. (We should have a scar thread... I have some really nasty ones, too.)

 

[FeebysOwner]

Re: the calories - as a very general rule of thumb cats need between 20-25 calories per pound of weight. So, if a cat weighs 10 pounds they should likely eat between 200 and 250 calories per day. This can vary greatly by cat so it is merely a basic guide. You might work backwards - in that, how many calories does he eat - both past and present, what is his weight, and is it a good weight for him?

Re: the B-12. It is simple blood test and in the case of your cat it could very helpful to know what his level is. There are oral B-12 supplements you could buy, however if he is really lacking in this vitamin, injections are much more effective.

Have you had a chance to check out the web site previously mentioned (Raw Feeding for IBD Cats - Feline IBD )? I think they have a lot of information that you might find very beneficial!

 

[lisahe]

Have you had a chance to check out the web site previously mentioned (Raw Feeding for IBD Cats - Feline IBD )? I think they have a lot of information that you might find very beneficial!

Yes, this is a very helpful site!

 

[tyleete]

I have to say, I have always been dead set against feeding raw. It's not my fault, it's my daughter's. She insisted I read this book with her long ago, and every other chapter began with a different kind of parasite contracted by uncooked/improperly cooked meat. It discussed in detail whathappens to the host. Bleach.
Anyhow! Have to say though, what live read on that page was rather interesting. Such as the high acid content on their stomach & kibble messes with those levels & makes it hard for them digest properly. I haven't read everything. But am still in process of going through it all. Thank you for the links. I'm still reading.
I'm going to give this cooked chicken with EZC a chancebit if it doesn't help, think I will move on to trying raw. The only thing I haven't seen yet though, is how you 'prepare' it? I mean, do you try to shred it? Chunks? Midnight came to us with no fang teeth. So I'm not even sure how he'd be able to rip it apart to eat.

 

[lisahe]

I have to say, I have always been dead set against feeding raw. It's not my fault, it's my daughter's. She insisted I read this book with her long ago, and every other chapter began with a different kind of parasite contracted by uncooked/improperly cooked meat. It discussed in detail whathappens to the host. Bleach.
Anyhow! Have to say though, what live read on that page was rather interesting. Such as the high acid content on their stomach & kibble messes with those levels & makes it hard for them digest properly. I haven't read everything. But am still in process of going through it all. Thank you for the links. I'm still reading.
I'm going to give this cooked chicken with EZC a chancebit if it doesn't help, think I will move on to trying raw. The only thing I haven't seen yet though, is how you 'prepare' it? I mean, do you try to shred it? Chunks? Midnight came to us with no fang teeth. So I'm not even sure how he'd be able to rip it apart to eat.

A lot of people on the site make raw food but we only feed our cats commercial raw foods -- I know it probably sounds silly but don't trust myself to deal with everything properly. We feed a bunch of frozen and freeze-dried foods.

If you do want to try raw food, our cats would probably suggest starting with something like Stella & Chewy's "Stella's Selects," which are little frozen medallions that you defrost and serve. Our cats love the chicken medallions but not the turkey. The ingredients are very simple/basic (though there are added probiotics, a big plus) and the meat is treated with high pressure processing, to kill bacteria. (Our vet isn't a fan of raw food because of contamination but she's all for the HPP.) Stella's Selects aren't cheap but our cats are picky enough that whatever they'll eat in full seems reasonable!

 

[tyleete]

Oh my gosh, I just looked that up. $41 for about 11 cups, and you feed a cup a day? I do cat & wildlife rescue and definitely can't afford $123 per month on a single cat. But thanks for the thought.
I wouldn't try to make a balanced meal either, which is why I like EZ Complete to make it complete for me. I'm not that talented. I'm still reading through all this about the raw food. Every page leads through to at least one other. So I feel like I'm never be done. But facts sure are a nice thing to read.

For any that wondered about WHY I feed this one 6 meals at least a day, it's not for kicks I assure you. He was a wild child outside and inhaled his food still after years of being an inside cat. He eats too fast and too much and then throws up every time. So I have to portion his meals out.
Yeah, it's fun.
Oh! Another question. I've been always cutting OFF the fat on the chicken before cooking it up in the past. Should I not be doing that? I remember reading somewhere about cat being bad for the pancreas? And I do the same for our chicken too.:/

 

[lisahe]

Oh my gosh, I just looked that up. $41 for about 11 cups, and you feed a cup a day? I do cat & wildlife rescue and definitely can't afford $123 per month on a single cat. But thanks for the thought.
I wouldn't try to make a balanced meal either, which is why I like EZ Complete to make it complete for me. I'm not that talented. I'm still reading through all this about the raw food. Every page leads through to at least one other. So I feel like I'm never be done. But facts sure are a nice thing to read.

For any that wondered about WHY I feed this one 6 meals at least a day, it's not for kicks I assure you. He was a wild child outside and inhaled his food still after years of being an inside cat. He eats too fast and too much and then throws up every time. So I have to portion his meals out.
Yeah, it's fun.
Oh! Another question. I've been always cutting OFF the fat on the chicken before cooking it up in the past. Should I not be doing that? I remember reading somewhere about cat being bad for the pancreas? And I do the same for our chicken too.:/

Heck no, we don't feed them just that, I couldn't afford it either! We feed lots of different foods that are sold at various prices. The homemade meal is the largest of the day. The Stella & Chewy's are just a small afternoon snack but one of the great things about raw food is that it seems to satiate our cats, even in small amounts. It's also a good food for introducing a cat to raw food.

We feed different foods at each meal: we also feed five meals a day plus a night snack because one of our cats also eats too fast and too much and throws up. Our cats are rescues who came to us underfed and scrawny. Ireland got over that but Edwina never did. (She has always been a barfer, because of her eating habits and her food sensitivities.)

I leave the fat on the meat for our cats' food. Dr. Pierson's site (Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition – Common Sense. Healthy Cats.) has information on (relatively ideal?) fat content. This page is huge but if you just search "fat" and keep scrolling down, you'll find it. There's also a lot about calorie intake that you might find helpful, too.

 

[tyleete]

Oh gosh. Another page! I'll add that to my tabs in a moment. I'm trying to go through them all one by one.
I have to thank you and the others that pointed at links about raw. Won't lie, I'll still be worried, but I actually gave my guy 2 feedings of it already. I know they say 'slow transitions' for the protein. But I figured he's pretty much there already, what with serving him baked chicken & EZC the last several weeks only.
Let me know if you think that's wrong. But he got 0.45oz first. Then 0.85oz. I gave him baked the next. But he didn't seem to eat much of the later baked ones. Hope I didn't mess him up.:/
He'll also need it either chopped up more or pureed. He has no fang teeth. So he had trouble eating/chewing it.

 

[lisahe]

Oh gosh. Another page! I'll add that to my tabs in a moment. I'm trying to go through them all one by one.
I have to thank you and the others that pointed at links about raw. Won't lie, I'll still be worried, but I actually gave my guy 2 feedings of it already. I know they say 'slow transitions' for the protein. But I figured he's pretty much there already, what with serving him baked chicken & EZC the last several weeks only.
Let me know if you think that's wrong. But he got 0.45oz first. Then 0.85oz. I gave him baked the next. But he didn't seem to eat much of the later baked ones. Hope I didn't mess him up.:/
He'll also need it either chopped up more or pureed. He has no fang teeth. So he had trouble eating/chewing it.

Yes, all the cat health and feeding pages can get overwhelming! Dr. Pierson's site is one of my favorites because she writes about the basics of how to feed a cat. (Our vet even recommends it.) I found catinfo.org when our previous cat was in her last months and (most likely) had IBD and lymphoma but was too old and frail for testing. I wish I'd known years before about how to feed cats.

What, exactly, did you feed Midnight? Raw chicken breast with EZ? Personally, I don't think you did the wrong thing... then again, I've always had cats who could easily switch foods. Some cats apparently can't do that and the switch has to be very slow. I think you'd already know if there was going to be a problem! How is he doing? I hope he's doing okay. Some cats do much better with raw food than cooked... and ours certainly prefer raw to cooked, though they do like my homemade cooked much better than canned, which they now tend to reject.

Do you have a food processor? That's what I use to make smoother food for our cats. (Sometimes I chop it, sometimes I shred it, sometimes I process it... even variety in the shape of the food matters to these cats!)

 

[tyleete]

Yeah, it was some raw chicken beast with EZC. He seems ok. But, since I have it to him twice last evening, he's given me trouble eating after. Gave him some cooked twice later that he barely touched the 2nd. Tried cooked again in the morning and ate only a little. So I gave him raw and nothing.
We just got back from the vets about an hour ago & pureed it for him. I'm waiting to see. He sure lapped up most of the liquid. Some of the meat was still semi-solid but barely.
Good news! He gained another 1/2 pound! He went down to 6.13 at the beginning of the year, to 7.7, and now 7.14. I'm so happy about that. He's still skin and bones so I couldn't tell.
Funnily enough, my vet said the same EXACT thing you guys did.... In the range, but still too high.:/ I won't get into that frustration, because I absolutely love my vet. Andy that was with his last test. She sent today's out and we'll know tomorrow.
And I only got 6 puncture wounds and 1 small, shallow gash. Beats the last time still. He's not a willing participant, that's for sure. That last image was the previous time. My doc said... It should heal just fine without scaring.
It didn't. Cats. What're you going to do?