How Big Can We Conceivably Breed Domestic Cats Or Their Hybrids?

[Alcubierre]

Hi all,

I love cats. Obviously they are wonderful. Charming, fun, kind, and impressive in every respect.

But one thing bothers me a lot. It's how often cats get predated by dogs and coyotes. Particularly here in North America.

Now, I already love big cats (who doesn't), but what have breeders managed to accomplish in terms of making them...bigger?

A lot bigger. When I think of my dream cat, it's at a healthy, fit weight of 18 kg, or around 40 lbs.

We're talking cats so big they fundamentally change their predators' relationship with the species. That's how big they should be.

Plus who doesn't want to be snuggled by massive cats with huge feet and heads?

As this is a conversation site for cat breeders and heavy enthusiasts, I can't imagine I'm the only one with this (possibly) Quixotic dream.

What efforts into breeding massive cats has happened so far? How have breeders managed? Who has been most successful? How much hybridization would it likely take to break into that impossibly large tier? Would a cat that big run any risks of health problems?

These are the sorts of questions I'm interested in.

Given how much I love the species, and my dream in particular, I personally would be totally fine paying upwards of $45k USD for a cat this special.

What about the rest of you? What do you think about giant cats? Do you think it's worth the effort for some breeders to try and reach that goal?

 

[Furballsmom]

I'll admit, I like big house cats. A giant house cat? I don't know. If it's cranky about getting to the vet, I might seriously regret it.

 

[amethyst]

One problem that I already see in large breed cats being bred even bigger is hip, knee, and elbow issues, as well as other joint issues like arthritis as they age, just like poorly bred large breed dogs. Also those larger cat breeds are becoming more prone to heart problems as well as cancers, just like giant breed dogs. I think the problem is that you are taking an animal that should normally be a certain size and trying to breed it bigger then it was naturally intended to be which puts strain on the body. I mean sure you find people breeding giant Maine coons, ones in the 25-30 pound range, and 4 feet long, but you also then a few years later read about them dying young.

However, the hybrid cats like the Savannah (currently the largest domestic cat breed) are a possible way to go to get bigger cats. Even then though, you aren't likely going to be able to get a 40lb cat, that is the upper limit for the servals (the wild cat used to make savannah). You would probably need to find a larger compatible wild cat breed to cross with the savannah to really push the size up. So in the end you really would be creating a new animal likely more tamed wild cat like in personality then the domestic cats we currently know.

 

[Alcubierre]

amethyst that sounds horrifying. I love the Maine Coon breed, and pushing gigantism on the Domestic Housecat sounds incredibly unethical, particularly if it's shortening the sweet little beasties' lives. No, I think you're right, it would almost assuredly end up being some sort of hybrid.

If I think about it, the only wild cats that fall into that size category are things like...Lynxes. But Lynxes are extremely solitary and are probably ill-suited personality wise. Hmmm, this is a tricky question.

 

[Alcubierre]

I'll admit, I like big house cats. A giant house cat? I don't know. If it's cranky about getting to the vet, I might seriously regret it.

To be dead honest, that's part of the appeal to me. A cat that big would never let you get away with taking any shortcuts with raising them, and it would require nigh complete awareness of your cats needs and communication. Hopefully with the reward that comes from beefy cat snuggles for "getting it right". Cats seem to have extra respect for you if you bother to understand them. Because basically if your cat doesn't explicitly enjoy car rides, the vet is going to have to do house calls.

 

[Talien]

basscat may have some ideas. Maybe not specifically about breeding larger domestic Cats, but he does live with a Bobcat.

 

[Norachan]

I'm really against the idea of creating any more "Designer" pets. Having a giant house cat might sound cool, but a lot of people who want one would just want him or her as a status symbol. How many people would really understand cats well enough to cope with a pet that could potentially cause serious harm if scared or in pain?

There are a lot of hybrid breeds, such as Savannah Cats or Bengal Cats, available already. These are high energy animals that need a lot of time and proper care. Many of them don't get this as their guardians didn't do enough research before deciding to get one. As a result these cats end up in shelters or lead unhappy lives because their needs can' t be properly met.

There are so many sweet, deserving, adorable, misunderstood cats waiting for their forever home in shelters all around the world. We don't need to breed any more cats, we need to start taking proper care of the ones we already have.

Cats seem to have extra respect for you if you bother to understand them.

If you're up for a challenge why not adopt a cat that's been overlooked in a shelter because he or she has behavioural problems? Work with a cat like that to help them overcome their fear or aggression or stress or whatever it is that's making them un-adoptable.

For me that would be a lot more rewarding than having a giant cat I could show off to people.

 

[mani]

Great post.

 

[Alcubierre]

I'm really against the idea of creating any more "Designer" pets. Having a giant house cat might sound cool, but a lot of people who want one would just want him or her as a status symbol. How many people would really understand cats well enough to cope with a pet that could potentially cause serious harm if scared or in pain?

There are a lot of hybrid breeds, such as Savannah Cats or Bengal Cats, available already. These are high energy animals that need a lot of time and proper care. Many of them don't get this as their guardians didn't do enough research before deciding to get one. As a result these cats end up in shelters or lead unhappy lives because their needs can' t be properly met.

There are so many sweet, deserving, adorable, misunderstood cats waiting for their forever home in shelters all around the world. We don't need to breed any more cats, we need to start taking proper care of the ones we already have.



If you're up for a challenge why not adopt a cat that's been overlooked in a shelter because he or she has behavioural problems? Work with a cat like that to help them overcome their fear or aggression or stress or whatever it is that's making them un-adoptable.

For me that would be a lot more rewarding than having a giant cat I could show off to people.

That's not what motivates me.

Certainly not...showing it off. That doesn't interest me at all.

Basically? I want cats that can't be victimized by any animals (or people) in their surrounding area.

Particularly not coyotes, grabby toddlers, teenagers, cat haters, or dogs. A 40 lbs cat will make any creature properly respect it.

I already raise behaviorally challenged and elderly cats. And that challenge is absolutely worth it.

I'd be more than happy to give those hybrids people give up the home they need. There are no shortcuts to giving cats what they need. If I'm prepared to raise a cat big enough that it could predate a small adult human, you bet your boots that serving its every need is the first thing on my mind. I live and love for cats that need care only an expert cat owner can provide.

 

[Alcubierre]

It's a little bit surprising to me the attitudes that people seem to have about their cats, and you illustrated it well talking about Bengals and Savannahs. But I found you went back to the same old problem.

We already live with another species which can be fantastically dangerous to us when we're not careful owners. We always walk them, go actively play with them, and make sure they're well adjusted. We take training them very seriously. And nobody seems to be bothered *that* much when someone buys one from a breeder. They're called Dogs.

The only reason people seem to think cats are "easier" is they are just far more polite about asking for what they need. I am under no such illusions about the fact that a cat has as many needs as a dog, or a person, or anything else we really, truly care about.

What you're describing about all the poor shelter cats and abandoned cats out there is exactly the problem between many of us humans and this wonderful companion species that chooses to love us. Not enough care. Not enough respect. Not enough mindfulness of them or their needs.

I'm never going to put a dent in humans' bad behavior towards cats. We already have ambassadors who do a far more useful job than I ever could, namely Jackson Galaxy. (Though I don't share his opinion about Indoor only, as I doubt an indoor only cat can truly be happy.)

One weirdo like me's profound and unquenched desire for the companionship of a cat like that isn't going to change my relationship with all the other cats out there that need love to.

Besides, if anybody attempts this, it's going to be at least 10-20 years before a 40 lbs tamed wildcat hybrid arrives. I've got a lot of time and a lot of love to share in the meantime, and I'm not going to stop.

I've had 10 pet cats throughout my whole life. None of those cats came from breeders. That's not going to change, even if I added a giant cat to our family.

You do bring up one good point though. Very few people should own a 40 lbs tamed wildcat hybrid. I imagine any breeder who manages to get a stable line of these cats will be heavily vetting any and all potential owners. And given how difficult this would be? You probably won't see more than 100 of these cats born every year, worldwide.

In other words, it really doesn't matter at all. Hardly anybody will be able to be vetted for, or even afford these cats. It won't take resources away from shelters. And personally, I'm not going to stop adopting shelter cats.

So, I think you're making a lot more ado about this than is warranted. I don't disagree about all the other cats. I just...want...to own a single cat in my life that is that huge, and is healthy. I'm really not asking for much here.

 

[Norachan]

Basically? I want cats that can't be victimized by any animals (or people) in their surrounding area.

Particularly not coyotes, grabby toddlers, teenagers, cat haters, or dogs. A 40 lbs cat will make any creature properly respect it.

The best way to protect a cat from all of these things is to keep them safely indoors. Can you imagine what will happen if a 40lb cat takes a swipe at a toddler who tries to grab him? He could very easily maim or kill a child. Then he will face the same fate as every dog who harms a child, he will be euthanized.

The most common cause of injury and death in domestic cats is traffic accidents. Being large won't protect a cat from cars. Cars kill 40lb dogs and 400lb deer all the time.

Very few people should own a 40 lbs tamed wildcat hybrid. I imagine any breeder who manages to get a stable line of these cats will be heavily vetting any and all potential owners.

In some places in the US people are allowed to buy big cats, lions, tigers, leopards etc, as pets. Lots of these animals end up in the wrong hands, suffer horribly as pets and, if they are extremely lucky, end up being rescued and sent to a sanctuary.

I doubt that wildcat hybrids will fare any better. There may be a few responsible breeders, but a lot of people will become BYB's and start selling these cats to whoever has the money to pay for one. Just as they do with every other breed of cat and dog.

I just...want...to own a single cat in my life that is that huge, and is healthy. I'm really not asking for much here.

You're asking for an animal to be cross bred with another in order to produce a pet to fulfill your fantasy. How many kittens will be born before a breeder is able to create one big enough to meet your requirements? What will happen to all the kittens that aren't big enough? What about the risks of cancer, heart disease, bone development problems, birth defects that come with inter-breeding in order to produce a specific "type"?

What you're asking really doesn't show a lot of consideration or respect for the cat's well being. Animals don't exists for us to play around with and create designer pets.

 

[di and bob]

We had one cat once that would be considered a "giant'. He was healthy and fit at 30 lbs, huge! His name was "the Hulk"! He acted and lived like any other cat, but cleaning his litter box was challenging! We gave him to a friend that begged us for him, he was a stray that showed up one day at our new house, and I often wonder what happened to him. You might advertise for a cat like him, I'm sure there are others like him out there somewhere that are giants from natural evolution or accident. If you want a giant cat, go for one close traht is already here!

 

[Furballsmom]

He was healthy and fit at 30 lbs, huge! His name was "the Hulk

You might advertise for a cat like him,

I was thinking the same thing. About a year ago I saw two ginger siblings in a Petco for adoption, they were young so hadn't reached their full size, and they were BIG.

 

[goingpostal]

Seems a bit weird to be bothered by housecats being eaten by predators without any concern to the damage they do to each other or to other species. There are large hybrids or various species that pretty much fit your bill, they rarely make good housepets and most end up in poor situations. If you think they won't end up like that you are deluding yourself, look at how many small roadside zoos and tiger cub petting type tourist traps there are, it's estimated there are 5k "pet" tigers in the US alone. My friend's dad used to go to animal auctions and come home with all sorts of weird birds, deer, etc he had no idea how to care for or house, in the hopes of making a quick buck off them.

 

[Uncled]

All I can envision is that movie The island of Dr Moroue

 

[basscat]

A Alcubierre ,
I have a 50lb cat fully equipped to do whatever carnage he sees fit. And he would be no match for a dog the same size.

 

[Willow's Mom]

I have very small dogs and a very ordinary kitten. The relationship between them is fantastic and nothing at all like my childhood experience of empathizing with and trying to protect the family cats from the bullying Shetland Sheepdogs and all the nastiness from people during the days of "pack theory" and now-outdated dog training practices involving dominance/submission heirarchies.

But as much as I love my little fur family, it almost didn't happen because of concerns for my dogs' safety. I had originally wanted to adopt Willow's mother, who was an abandoned pet, but I took one look at her, said, "uh huh", and cringed at the thought of what she could and most likely would do to my little 6 and 9 lb doggies.

The previous cat stalked my ex's Pomeranian as if he was looking forward to a tasty snack.

We all wuvs our pwecious wecious widda spoiled wotten pwincess, but Willow is still three pounds of razor sharp teeth and claws, an obligate carnivore, and a far more efficient killer than any human or canine. She adores her own dogs but is immediately on the defensive and ready to attack any dog of any size we encounter on the trail. I pick her up immediately for the safety of strange dogs as much as for her own safety.

A 40 lb cat could cause a lot of damage. They might also appeal to the same type of person who have given pitties a bad name.

But more importantly, when I see what has happened with dog breeding in the 40 years between the previous and current dogs, I am horrified, disgusted, and terrified that cat breeding might go in the same direction.

I was considering a Sphynx, possibly a Ragdoll, but most likely a meezer when I found out about Willow's family. The shelters were full, the mama cat could not survive on her own, and the caregiver already had more on her plate than she could handle with the colony of ferals she had been taking care of for years.

She was not a monster. She genuinely loved cats and did more for her colony than I had ever been able to do for mine back in the day, but there was no alternative to euthanizing all 8 kittens and mama if homes couldn't be found.

One of Willow's siblings had points like a meezer, but what I cared about most was temperament so that's what I asked for and that's who came home with me.

After a few days of heaven with the perfect cat for our family, I looked online at pictures of modern Siamese cats and was horrified. These are not the beloved and longed for purebreds of my 1970s childhood at all! They look so tiny and fragile and inbred.

It is questionable whether it is animal cruelty to breed or buy purebred Bulldogs these days because of all of the health problems that they suffer. They cannot reproduce naturally. They must be conceived by artificial insemination and born by planned caesarean.

Purebred Chihuahuas don't have things much better, and my own little "discarded designer dogs" have their share of expensive and lifelong health and temperament issues.

Please, cat breeders, don't go down that same road. I am devoted to my little fur children but Willow is fortunate to be the healthiest and happiest of the three and I am fortunate to have rescued her from certain death instead of going into unpayable debt.

Cats are still wild enough to survive human selfishness and greed, but I'm not so sure about dogs sometimes.

 

[Purr-fect]

We had one cat once that would be considered a "giant'. He was healthy and fit at 30 lbs, huge! His name was "the Hulk"! He acted and lived like any other cat, but cleaning his litter box was challenging! We gave him to a friend that begged us for him, he was a stray that showed up one day at our new house, and I often wonder what happened to him. You might advertise for a cat like him, I'm sure there are others like him out there somewhere that are giants from natural evolution or accident. If you want a giant cat, go for one close traht is already here!

I agree.

There are some naturally large cats out there waiting for homes.

Greg and arnold arent 40 pounders but they are natural. Greg is 20 lbs and arnold is 23lbs. Im in bed right now an arnold has jammed himself against my arm and has his head on a pillow beside me.

Both cats were adopted from a owner posting on kijiji.

 

[Willowy]

Cats are not very elastic genetically. People have been trying to breed them for size like dogs and it just doesn't work. The smallest it seems they can be is around 4 pounds (some female Singapuras) and the largest around 30 pounds (without being fat). And even then it's hard to get that size consistently---you can have a 30-pounder with 12-pound siblings. Even Savannahs lose their size in just a couple generations. That's just how cats are. We aren't going to be able to make 2-pound cats and 300-pound cats like we did with dogs.

As for abuse, I don't think it would make much difference. Large dogs can do great damage and some people are still horrible to them. If somebody has that abusive mindset, they aren't going to allow an animal to fight back at all.

As for coyotes, yeah, a 40-pound cat could probably take on one coyote. But coyotes are known for luring large dogs out and the entire pack attacking. If they can kill a 120-pound dog that way, they could kill a 40-pound cat that way.

Plus, dogs aren't generally allowed to run around loose, because of the damage they can do. Animal Control often overlooks cats because they seem fairly harmless. If cats were 40 pounds, I don't think they'd overlook them anymore!

 

[lorie d.]

I agree with all those who feel a 40 pound house cat could end up seriously injuring someone. After all, they haven't been domesticated as long as dogs, they are predators who still have a certain amount of wildness in them. My cat Sweetie sometimes gets in my lap when I'm sitting on the couch and very persistently starts crawling all over me, touching me with his paws, because he's overexcited. Sometimes I get accidentally scratched, and if he was a big 40 pound cat when this happened I would end up being mauled.