How about....B6? Homecooked recipe help requested

KittyCuddler

TCS Member
Thread starter
Young Cat
Joined
Jan 23, 2019
Messages
32
Purraise
6
On Tanya's CKD Site, it says that B6 and B9 need to be "watched" -- to avoid it becoming too high in a recipe, if homecooking cat food.

B vitamins are in fact water soluble, but yes -- you can get too much of them at one time, and if a cat has kidney disease and/or other conditions, this can be a problem because excretion can be hampered. Especially in kidney disease.

That being said....how many times the "daily limit" -- like, 200%, 400%, 600%, 1,000% -- is "as much as you would want" in a day's recipe for homecooked food? Many things can be gone over the RDA (B vitamins in particular)....but again, whether in normal cats or not, even when it's "at one time," all those vitamins can be too much at once for a cat's body to handle.

With B6, the danger is neuropathy. That is true in humans and cats.

The great thing about B6 though is that it is involved in DAO production (which breaks down histamine in the gut) as well as anti-inflammatory action. But yes, there is such a thing as "too much of a good thing" -- even with B6.

I personally know a human who was getting shots of B6 (in a B complex) from her doctor. It was, even though it was a shot of water soluble B vitamins....too much for her body to excrete at once, and she has neuropathy to this day. Also has an "allergy" in a sense to B6, where she cannot have food with too much B6 at a time or else she gets to feeling quite ill, and her neuropathy symptoms increase.

There is also a "low-B6 diet" she has to follow, due to this sort of...."allergy" she now has to B6.

But back to cats.

Since Tanya mentioned two B vitamins in particular(B6 and B9) have to be "watched" for overage, but did not give a "Safe Upper Limit"...I assume it is because of the phenomenon involved with excretion -- that you can have too much at once and not get rid of it soon enough. I forget what the deal is with too much folate/folic acid/B9 (however you choose to refer to it).....but the B6 issue is most definitely tied to the unfortunate result of neuropathy with too much in the body at once. Whether or not Tanya's site was speaking about CKD cats or all cats, well.....that is basically what my cat is dealing with (CKD), so either way it's still advice that need to be heeded. And noted.

I just was disappointed to not hear HOW MUCH of an overage is acceptable. With B12, you can have gobs and gobs of it -- even with CKD. Tanya's site confirms this (thank God).....so this is not a principle that applies to every B vitamin ('too much' being bad)....just B6 and B9, I believe.

And the "Recommended Daily Allowances site" info I usually go to for best feeding amounts, well...since there is no "official" Safe Upper Limt ('SUL') for B6....that site doesn't list it either.

Does anyone know what a decent rule of thumb is for the maximum of B6 for a feline to eat?

Since I am homecooking my food (have used both cooked and raw intermittently in the past -- added vitamins to supplement if necessary, but usually use a combination of cooked with raw food...sometimes all cooked, sometimes all raw, or other times half and half of each together)...I always make the food according to AAFCO and/or NRC nutritional standards.

Pork and chicken seem to be heavy with B6. Goat is the best choice, but my access to goat is limited. Lamb is also good like goat for low-B6, but my impression is that lamb and my cat do not get along; a mild food allergy. So I'm stuck with basically pork and chicken for main proteins.

Shrimp is also low in B6. But, well....it's shrimp. Something I don't want to feed to my cat.

My cat doesn't do well with beef or fish. Fowl is fine though. So is mouse and squirrel.

It's limited access as an issue though. She can eat pork and chicken all day long and it works for her. And I can get hold of both pork and chicken easy enough.....

Anyone have any experience with a "maximum" (even though it's not a SUL) amount, as a rule of thumb, for B6 that they can share?

Thanks for any help with this.

Here's what it says about B6, how much the "Recommended Daily Allowances" is...again, since no official SUL exists, this is the closest "official" word on B6:

"Pyridoxine, (B6) mg Minimum Requirement - 0.05; Recommended Daily Allowance - 0.06"

Here's what that info came from: Recommended Daily Allowances - Feline
 

di and bob

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
16,582
Purraise
22,956
Location
Nebraska, USA
I would just stay around the minimum requirement, 0.05, and then you wouldn't have to worry about it. There is B6 present in the meat itself too, eggs are another good source. I gave Miralax in egg yolk when my cats needed it and they loved it. I don't do a homemade diet so really have no experience in this, just curious. I hope someone comes on with the answers you need! Adding to this post brings it back up to the top.....
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3

KittyCuddler

TCS Member
Thread starter
Young Cat
Joined
Jan 23, 2019
Messages
32
Purraise
6
I would just stay around the minimum requirement, 0.05, and then you wouldn't have to worry about it. There is B6 present in the meat itself too, eggs are another good source. I gave Miralax in egg yolk when my cats needed it and they loved it. I don't do a homemade diet so really have no experience in this, just curious. I hope someone comes on with the answers you need! Adding to this post brings it back up to the top.....
Thanks for the post boost. :)

Yeah...the issue is that B6 is “naturally high” in raw pork and chicken....and that means I cannot use as much of them as I would like. Which means my cat would either just eat what I give her and lose too much weight OR be starving and constantly yowling for more food. Not good scenarios. :/

Cooking the chicken or pork reduces B6 content somewhat — while keeping calories somewhat intact — but I want to feed raw.

So I suppose my options are:
- Feed goat (if I can find it)
- Feed Squirrel (if I can find it)
- Cook pork*
- Cook chicken*
- Find a “filler” to add calories without adding B6 — this is the ideal option

Note:
Starred items (*) do not reduce B6 as well as I need — would still need to add a “non-B6-heavy” filler to them

Eggs btw are out. She is allergic. And eggs have a sizable amount of B6, so...nope. :)
 

LTS3

TCS Member
Veteran
Joined
Aug 29, 2014
Messages
19,209
Purraise
19,695
Location
USA
Hare-Today.com sells goat and other novel proteins. No squirrel, though. Ethnic supermarkets and butcher shops may have goat. I know some ethnic groups around here eat goat and sometimes order a whole goat for roasting from their favorite butcher.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #5

KittyCuddler

TCS Member
Thread starter
Young Cat
Joined
Jan 23, 2019
Messages
32
Purraise
6
Hare-Today.com sells goat and other novel proteins. No squirrel, though. Ethnic supermarkets and butcher shops may have goat. I know some ethnic groups around here eat goat and sometimes order a whole goat for roasting from their favorite butcher.
Thank you for the info! :)

I’ve used that site (Hare Today) before and it works, it is just somewhat costly. The shipping and minimum order requirement...that part.

As to “try ethnic markets”...well, that is problematic.

Since I avoid feeding meat to my furry family members and to my human family members as well that comes from truly inhumane, cruel slaughter (and halal slaughters animals and lets them bleed to death, bloody and in pain, for hours — promoting suffering because as they put it, “it makes the meat tastier”...and kosher slaughter is the same)....then all ethnic markets you mentioned that sell meat from goat that has suffered in this sick way before dying would be most definitely out of the question.

Blackwing Meats and their online order portal is likely the best option for buying goat meat after Hare Today...as they do not sell halal or kosher slaughtered meat. But...yeah, the cost again is an issue.

So.....if there is any way to find a more widely available “filler” meat that is not beef, chicken, fish, shellfish, or pork, as those are either high in B6 or allergenic...then whatever meat that is could work. Doubtful one exists, but who knows.

Or, alternatively some other “filler” that is a carbohydrate source — one that will not spike my cat’s blood sugar —that would be good to find. But what that carb source would be is tricky.

I’d *love* to find a way to inhibit B6 absorption...like, add it to meals, maybe that would work. I’d have to make sure *all* B6 was not completely blocked....because B6 is needed; just not at a rate of 550% the RDA....etc.... :)

Or, perhaps 550% the RDA for B6 is actually not as concerning as I am afraid it is. The warning from Tanya’s CKD Site was so so vague...telling us to “not give too much”...but also not telling us what “too much” was! Arghhhhh....

I hope that a decent, cost-effective solution exists. Probably not. But, who knows.
 
Top