Honest question, please help me understand

Pinottes123

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I am fully aware that this site is pro-spay/neutering. Which is why I am asking my question why, any and all comments/questions, are in view of helping me understand.

My roommate saves cats from homelessness(which is fine), and gets the spayed/neutered as soon as possible (,which is also fine). The last cat she saved, is apparently very very pregnant, I have seen some small discharge, can feel the babies moving, and by her restlessness, I know she will probably give birth within the next few days. She loves helping cats from shelters and is studying in college to be an assistant in vetenarian clinics and etc.

Everyone who defends this point of view, doesn't want kittens because it penalised older cats in shelter who could of otherwise been saved, but who will get euthanized, which I understand.

Finishing fact: the cat goes to surgery Monday and unless she has fully finished labour before Monday 8am, all kittens will be euthanized.

Here's what I really need help understanding: it's horrible to have to kill cats that have lived 2-10 years, but if it's kittens that would of otherwise been fine (and I've got the families for them too, all people that refuse shelter cats, just like me), so if it's kittens it's fine to kill them (if it's an abortion mid pregnancy or whatever it's fine) but they are livable, they have 68 gestation days, they can fully survive as long as the mother isn't killed.

That's the paradox I don't understand, it's fine to kill being that have barely lived, but killing older ones that at least got the chance to live and will probably get euthanized is horrible?

What am I not getting? I know there are a.ton of homeless cats, I know refuges are overfull, I know purposely reproducing cats I bad, I know not spaying neutering our cats is bad, I fully get that, but I don't get why it's fine to kill kittens but horrible to have to kill older cats..

Please someone explain this to me, please!
 

SpecterOhPossum

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Adding more cats into the state of things right now, with feline overpopulation, will probably result in them being killed one way or another. I don't personally see the point in bringing them into a world of uncertainty and grim chances of a happy existence. You never know what's down the line 4 years from now; for them. Many people want kittens, but when kittens become cats; the novelty wears off.
I would personally re-direct those families to adopt out an already existing shelter cat in need of a home, one that isn't cute and in demand; perhaps a senior -
rather than adding cats ontop of the population for the sole purpose of being pets; considering the overwhelming amount in desperate need, ones on deathrow, you know. Once born, you feel and understand things around you and things happening to you- inside, not really. There's a stark difference
but this is just my take
 
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Pinottes123

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Most of the people that would be families, refuse shelter cats, just like myself, most of them have bad habits that can't be changed, or have specific health/behavioral problems. Which is highly undesirable, as where kittens can most of the time be taught the behaviors you want from a very young age and then it's just enforcing it.

As for the being killed one way or another, I agree, but at least they would have know life. Most people don't see it the way I do but.. with humans, past a certain point, you can't kill the baby(ies) and then if they live or not depends on the situation. I see cats the same way, it should be given a chance to live, sure it'll eventually die, one way or another, like all living creatures, the older cat has lived and seen a bit of the world, the kitten hasn't had time to grow. Even if humans are in horrible Over population, we don't kill livable Youngs, we do mistreat the elderly depending on country, but at least they got to see the world...

Shouldn't we give the same chance to the kittens, even if they may die in 2 or 3 years?

I agree that I don't see a point in bringing children into this world no, neither human or overpopulated species, by preventing the conception, or aborting mid pregnancy, I just find is just as bad killing them at birth..
 

Sarthur2

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I understand exactly where you are coming from. I am against spay/terminations past the halfway point (4-5 weeks) in a cat’s pregnancy. I think this cat should be allowed to have these kittens as they are nearly full term. It affects a mother cat when she is full of milk and hormones and has no kittens to nurse. It is not fine with me to kill kittens at 60-plus days’ gestation, nor is it acceptable to put down older cats in good health. There are too many homeless cats and shelter cats in the world, but spay and neuter laws are needed to curb the problem and decrease euthanasia numbers, in my opinion.

I share your distress. Is there an option for this cat to NOT go to surgery on Monday? You said you have homes for the babies. It sounds like this cat will give birth sometime in the next few days. Please let us know what happens.

P Pinottes123
 

Willowy

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I'm not really comfortable with a spay/abort that far along, but just think of it---if the kittens are born they'll have to be fostered for ~10 weeks, with their kitten de-worming and vaccines (and food and litter, etc.), then spayed/neutered before placement. So that's 4-6 more cats to deal with. That's a lot of resources.

As for the philosophical question of whether older cats or unborn kittens should be prioritized, well, I'm reminded of a bit in one of the later Anne of Green Gables books, in which Aunt Josephine says "kittens must be drowned, I'm afraid, or the world would be overrun. But no adult cat should be done to death, unless he sucks eggs". (Note: I would never condone drowning---it's painful and inhumane---but that's all they had back then. I also wouldn't condone someone choosing to euthanize kittens because they didn't want to spay the mother or didn't have it done in a timely fashion. But rescues have to make tough decisions). And I do think existing cats should be prioritized over unborn kittens, and possibly newborn kittens. Once they're a few weeks old, I think they're about equal.

by preventing the conception, or aborting mid pregnancy, I just find is just as bad killing them at birth..
I'm not sure I understand your wording here. Are you saying that preventing conception is the same as killing babies? Because yikes, when I think of all the babies I haven't conceived (or kittens my cats haven't conceived). . .
 

Jem

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I fully get that, but I don't get why it's fine to kill kittens but horrible to have to kill older cats..
I honestly think that this is just a matter of opinion....what is considered OK or not.
I personally could not abort a healthy, close to term, pregnancy. And I wish to emphasize HEALTHY...for both mom and babies. If it was early on, I can understand (although still makes me sad), simply because of overpopulation.
I am very much pro spay and neuter, I believe in adopting a rescue, I have adopted both kittens and adult cats from the shelters myself. I think it's very irresponsible to have a cat and not get it fixed, or "want their cat to experience being a mom"... I applaud places who have TNR and the volunteers that help. I have even gotten angry (in my head...I don't get all preachy, but will suggest they keep an open mind) at those who specifically only want a kitten and won't even consider getting an adult cat. So I understand the reasons behind an abort spay to give a chance to the adult cats who need homes....but I'm not comfortable with a close to full term abort spay...just my own feelings. But I would also like to emphasize, that it is MY feelings, MY guilt about ending what would probably have been a healthy kitten. And I also agree with what Sarthur2 Sarthur2 said about poor mom and the milk and hormones...It would be just too hard on her. What ever policies a local shelter has in place probably depends on their capabilities, but yeah, it bugs me too, just as much as it bugs me to kill a perfectly healthy adult cat simply because there is no room for it in the shelter.
 
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Pinottes123

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I thank you for your answers, seeing that others feel like me relieves me.
@Sarthur,I litrally agree with everything you said. Sadly it isn't my choice it's my roommates cat and she doesn't care how many or when or how they are killed, she won't hear a word I say either..
@Willowy,the place where she got the place and has now accepted the free spay, would assume all costs related to the babies since it's their fault no one knew she was pregnant even if they should of all considered the possibility, they want to euthanize to avoid costs for them, but the rest would be covered..and indeed my wording was fully unclear what I meant is: that I agreed with the point of view of this world being already too full of creatures to add new ones on purpose, using preventive methods like spaying young, aborting before the middle/end of the pregnancy, I feel like those methods are much better than letting them be birthed then straight away killed.
Jem Jem I understand your point of view, I probably live somewhere where refuges aren't like yours.. over here the animal costs 5-10 times more in a refuge than getting a kitten, spaying them, vaccines and stuff, so it's so much easier to just get a "fresh" kitten, raise it the way you want, and know exactly what care you give it. The refuges cat will cost around about 500-700 as for the other method usually free kitten, 40 for anti-parasites for 4 months, spaying 150, vaccines about 50, so about 300-400 depending if you get your kitten from people like me or from a petshops(about 50$).. So even though I would WANT to help a refuge, the cost, problems and etc, aren't financially worth it, over here, in my opinion. If it wasn't like that EX it was cheaper in refuge and you acctually had health insurances for the cats coming from refuges I would totally do it, I hear the usa is like that..
Anyhow, my roommate will be gone this afternoon and tonight so I'll be able to check in on the cat, since my roommate won't be able to prevent me letting the poor mommy stretch her legs out of that ridiculous cage in her wardrobe
(I get that she doesn't want her to give birth on her be or something but I don't think being locked up in a small transport cage for 3 day is better lol(Monday will be the 5th day)

Thank you for all your answers
 

Willowy

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That's weird; if the shelter can charge more for kittens than they spend, you'd think they'd want some nice easily-adoptable kittens to pick up some easy money to cover other expenses. So I can't really say what their reasoning is.
 

gilmargl

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Different organisations and shelters have different rules and possibilities for dealing with mother cats and kittens. I work voluntarily and frequently have a mother cat with kittens to look after in my home. We do try to save all healthy cats and kittens, but we need more people who are willing to take care of mama plus 3, 4, 5 or even 6 kittens for 12 weeks until they are old enough to go to new homes. It is a lovely job but a smelly, and dirty one particularly when fleas, worms, cat flu, herpes or giardia turn up. Some kittens have to be bottle fed - some will die. It's certainly a labour of love but shelters seldom have the capacity to do this job on top of all the other things they have to do.

Life is hard - it is important that as many cats as possible are neutered so that those of us who are trying to help will not be overwhelmed each year with so many new kittens.
 
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Pinottes123

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gilmargl gilmargl I would acctually LOVE to do that full time all the time, if the refuge can pay for the food/litter and stuff, I can 100% take care of them for weeks and months, I work from home so I would always be available, I so wish we had that here
 

Willowy

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You could volunteer to foster her and the litter. Maybe the reason they do late spay/aborts is because they don't have anyone to foster the kittens.
 
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Pinottes123

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It's not a shelter, it's a college, they have refused it because of costs, if it were a refuge I probably would of won
 

cataholic07

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A litter of kittens is insanely expensive, its around $1,000+ just for vetting, when you add in food costs (one litter goes through 300- 500 wet cans of food, 5 -10 bags of dry food, 12+ bags of litter) the cost is mind boggling. Essentially one cat with a litter of 3 kittens is eating and using the litter as much as 8 full grown cats. The rescue I volunteer with won't spay if super close to having the babies, but will if only half way. Kitten season is incredibly overwhelming, we generally get requests to take in 100-300 kittens/cats in a single month. We helped out a farm that we took in 16 cats, some pregnant, some nursing and it amounted to over 80 kittens in 2 months. From a single farm that had people dump their unfixed cats.

I fostered a pregnant cat. We thought she was going to give birth any day, but she ended up waiting 3 whole weeks to give birth. She had 4 kittens, but the last 3 were breached birth, the 2nd one was especially hard on her. I tried to help as much as I could but didnt want to hurt the baby. I did try to clean the kitten and gently tap on the chest to expel all the liquid in the lungs (the sac opened during the birthing process). Even with trying everything the kitten still died a day later. He refused to eat even with a syringe, mom wouldn't care for him and all he did was cry. It was extremely heart breaking to see this little kitten slowly die because really theirs not much a vet can do for a day old kitten. Fading kitten syndrome is terminal. The other 3 survived thankfully. The mom was in labor for 10 hours, she was attentive to only the 3 healthy ones, and we spent over $700 for their care (we always help the rescue by buying supplies if we can). Each kitty costed over $400 to vet. So all in all yes its far FAR more expensive to have a litter of kittens then to spay.

Most rescues hate to abort, but the fact is its insanely expensive to have litters, they would be in foster care until 12 weeks old (so long term fosters) and there is just too many kittens being born. If people were responsible pet parents and would fix their cats then rescues wouldnt be forced to abort. There is literally no reason not to spay. There is so much help out there with low income spay/neuter clinics, tnr/snr rescue programs, and what boggles my mind is people giving away free kittens instead of selling them and using that money to spay mom. Like.. why? WHY?

Yes it may seem cruel, and I feel for those vets, but unfortunately rescues are fighting a losing battle with cat overpopulation :(
 
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Pinottes123

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Situation update

She has lost her mucus block on Friday during the evening, the next morning we could feel small contractions on Her belly, but I didn't see it past that. Most of yesterday's and today's check ups from me were simply her breathing quite rapidly and her heart beating much more intense than supposed. I managed to take her temperature and she was at 37.2 C. Each time she breathed in all of her trembled, she won't eat nor drink and doesn't want any cat to get near her, I even had difficulties manipulating her myself.

I know that this means one of two things.
1. She will give birth during the night
2. She is suffering from uterine intertia

My roommate has conserved planned spaying/abortion for tomorrow

I pray that the kittens are born while here and they aren't euthanized, an do hope something prevents tomorrow's abortion and it becomes a c-section or something..

I will post the last update tomorrow evening explaining what happened. Thank you all for your answers that have prevented me from going insane in frustration.
 

Sarthur2

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Thank you for the update. It sounds like she may be in labor. She needs to be allowed to have these kittens naturally. I hope this works out for the best for mom and kittens. Does your roommate not find this situation disturbing?
 
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Pinottes123

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She went with the spaying, they euthanized the kittens, the 2 that were born and the 3 that weren't
I am having a ton of the covid symptoms so the vet has refused to let the cat back until I either leave or get better, so at least she will be under vet supervision
 

SpecterOhPossum

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Why...the ones that were born, though? Seems a little trigger happy.
 
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Pinottes123

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Because the vet didn't want to be responsible and my roommate didn't want the kittens
So now the kittens are just all dead.. I thank you all for your understanding even though I wasn't able to get through toy roommate..
 
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