Hi; would a stud service work with female non-purebred cat? + other breeding questions

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purrfect mom

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Hi; I have a beautiful rescue cat, non-purebred. She had a litter and all kittens went to good homes and were spayed/neutered. If I wanted her to have another litter before spaying - just bc she's so cool and pretty -- I would give kittens to good homes -- have been told I'd need a stud as I don't want to just let her out back door. Have also been told that studs won't work as their owners will only stud their cats w/other purebred cats.
Also, wondering re logistics: at whose "house" do the cats get together? The female's house or the male's house? And how long do they have to be together, generally? Have heard everything from one long day to three days. I just wanted to get some more info on this. Btw, we seem to have a shortage of cats for adoption in our area.
And, bc I'm not a breeder - I just think she deserves to pass along her genetics - if being pregnant/having a 2nd litter is really bad/painful for her, I'd want to know, bc then I wouldn't attempt it. When I called several vets, they said that cats are used to giving birth on their own and there are rarely any complications.
Also, I have her + 2 other cats (her kittens grown up). Would other cats leave kittens alone or would my poor cat be totally stressed out trying to protect her kittens against other 2 cats? Thanks for input!
 

Norachan

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purrfect mom purrfect mom

Cats can give birth to several litters by themselves, but every time they are pregnant or go through a heat cycle the risk of them developing pyometra increases.

How To Save Your Cat From These 16 Life-threatening Pregnancy Risks – TheCatSite Articles

You should also consider the number of cats and kittens that are euthanized every year due to a shortage of homes.

"The Humane Society of the United States estimates that 8-10 million dogs and cats are brought into shelters throughout the country each and every year. About half of these are euthanized in shelters for lack of good homes. "

Why You Should Spay And Neuter Your Cats – TheCatSite Articles

If you are able to offer a home to another cat please consider adopting rather than allowing your cat to have another litter. There doesn't seem to be any shortage of animals needing a forever home in your state. Or anywhere else in the world for that matter.

:sigh:

https://www.citydogsrescuedc.org/adoptable-cats.html

Cat Adoption DC | Cats Available for Adoption | HRA

Adopt A Pet From Washington DC Area Shelters: New Pets Added This Week

FFGW
 
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purrfect mom

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Thank you Norachan. I did post in the cat breeder's forum so that I could get some responses from people who breed cats. I believe that this is supposed to be o.k. That is, the forum is for people who don't have a problem with people breeding cats.I think there is a note to that effect. Not delving too much into eugenics, surely my cat and its kittens have just as much right to exist in the world as a "purebred" cat. Our cat is young. She may have only had the 1 litter. She is gorgeous!

W/r/t the cat overpopulation problem, in my area right now there are 8 cats for adoption in an area w/1.5 million people. Let's repeat that number. 8 cats, total. 3 different humane societies. 1.5 million people. When our cat had kittens we had a wait list of people who wanted them. My friend wanted one for her sister, but we decided to keep it ourselves. Her sister had to wait 6 weeks for a kitten.We don't have kill shelters where I live. I just had a friend ask me 2 days ago if any of my cats had kittens, as she has a friend who wants one.

I posted on the cat breeders forum so that I could get some actual details and logistical info about how it all works precisely so that I don't have to let my cat out the back door to mate with "every tom, dick and harry" that comes by!

Would love any info as per my ?, above. Thanks.
 
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goingpostal

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Lots of people want kittens, how many of those want a cat for 20 years? Finding a home for a cute kitten is never a problem, however realistically almost none of those kittens will stay in that home for its entire life, some will be let out and lost or killed, some will be rehomed multiple times, some will go to shelters eventually, etc. Being pretty isn't a good reason to breed your cat. People having to wait a few weeks to get a kitten isn't a good reason to breed your cat either, pets shouldn't be an impulse item and people having to actually plan and seek out the best pet for them would lead to better homes all around.
 

GoldyCat

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Thank you Norachan. I did post in the cat breeder's forum so that I could get some responses from people who breed cats. I believe that this is supposed to be o.k. That is, the forum is for people who don't have a problem with people breeding cats.I think there is a note to that effect.
What the forum guidelines actually say is:
This forum is for discussions of everything related to the world of the "Cat Fancy":
  • Ethical breeding programs in registered catteries.
This does not include breeding random non-pedigreed cats.

It's highly unlikely that you'll find a breeder who is willing to provide stud service for your cat. Most breeds do not allow outcrosses (breeding outside the specific breed). Even if someone was willing to breed their stud to your cat you would probably find the expense prohibitive. The stud's owner would require extensive health and genetic testing on your cat, for which you would pay. That's in addition to any stud fees.

All that said, TCS is pro spay/neuter. The Showing and Ethical Breeding forum is the exception to this, with the emphasis on ethical breeding of registered/pedigreed cats. Members her are going to continue to urge you to spay your kitty rather than help you find a stud.
 

Willowy

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Not delving too much into eugenics, surely my cat and its kittens have just as much right to exist in the world as a "purebred" cat.
It's not about their right to exist or not; all living beings have a right to exist. It's whether her reproducing would endanger other cats' right to exist, cats who are already here and not hypothetical. And in most cases, yes, it will.

Also, kittens are highly seasonal. It's not rare that someone will go looking for kittens around Christmas and not find any, and then they'll conclude that not enough people have kittens in their area, but in May and June, the shelter has to put cages in the hallways because everybody is up to their ears in kittens! That's just the way cats' cycles work.

And, yeah, lots of people will adopt kittens but then ditch them when they get older and not as cute, or show behavioral problems, or they just get bored. So finding GOOD homes for kittens isn't as easy as it seems.

Anyway, as for the actual question, most breed clubs will boot anybody who deliberately cross-breeds in a non-approved manner (some breeds have allowable cross-breeds), and a pedigreed male would have a fairly steep stud fee too, so you probably won't find a purebred male for her to mate with. Not a lot of people keep non-pedigreed tomcats indoors, but maybe if you asked around someone would know one. Usually the female is sent to the male because she may be so upset about a strange cat in her territory that she refuses him.

But I really would recommend spaying her and, if you want to raise kittens again, offer to foster for the local rescues during kitten season :).
 
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purrfect mom

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Thank you everyone. Just to let you know, 2 of her kittens went to a remarkable home (people in my church) where they have a 21-year old cat who is blind. They adore the cats. Another went to a friend of a pet lover fanatic.
And, good point about this not being prime kitten season. But even 6 mos. ago -- instead of 8 cats avail. for 1.5 mill there were 18. I counted
My point is that if it is ok to allow a pedigreed cat to reproduce it is ok to allow my cat to reproduce: it doesn't impact the ability of existing cats to exist any differently.
And, of course, I do not wish my cat to have multiple litters. We're talking one more litter. And, I'm concerned re the health of my cat: I don't want to subject her to danger outdoors (coyotes) or health risks brought on by tom cats w diseases. Hence the ? re studs: it seemed to be the only way -- except the sugg. about friends who have unfixed toms. But bc all my friends are so "responsible" no one has unfixed males.
But it does seem as if my cat would be skittish going to a stud's "house" to mate. Wouldn't she be freaked out? And how long would she have to stay - 1 day? 3 days? I just have no idea.
And I don't know how many tests I'd have to get: rabies/distemper combo, fel AIDS /Leukemia - but why would genetic testing be req'd? How would the genetics of my cat affect the genetics of the existing male stud? It's this practical stuff I'm trying to figure out.
 

GoldyCat

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The genetic testing is to check for things that could affect the health of both the mother and the kittens. It can include tests to check if the cat carries the genes for HCM (hypertrophic cardiomyopathy) and PKD (polycystic kidney disease) among others.
 
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purrfect mom

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Thanks Goldycat. So I'm not sure why a genetic test would re required of my cat by a stud's owner, if I'm just giving the kittens away to my friends.Are there other health tests beyond those I just listed that would be required? . And I guess the next ? is whether there's a way to search for clubs/organizations that allow studs to mate with non-pedigreed cats.What search term would I use? And if my cat has been vaccinated recently with the rabies, distemper/combo is that enough? Thanks.
 

Norachan

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I think it will be impossible to find a reputable breeder who would allow their stud to mate with a non-pedigree cat. People who invest time and money into breeding a certain type of cat care passionately about improving that breed, as well as about the welfare of any kittens produced.

You are asking for someone to allow their stud to produce kittens with a cat that has not been genetically tested, and so may give birth to sick or deformed kittens.

You are also asking for them to be OK with the kittens being "just given away to friends", with no guarantee that those kittens would be given to good homes. It goes against everything ethical breeding practices strive for.

Just take a look at what the UK's Cat Fancy says about it.

The GCCF is strongly against breeding from unregistered cats, or breeding from cats registered on the non-active register.

The GCCF is extremely concerned about the deliberate breeding of unregistered kittens with pedigree parents or breed crosses by unregistered, unregulated breeders unwilling to obtain active-registered cats, carry out required health checks or DNA tests, have kittens vaccinated and keep them for the recommended 13 weeks, seeking financial gain at the expense of good breeding practices.


Health & Welfare

You might find a back yard breeder or someone who runs one of those kitten mill type of unregistered cattery to let their tom mate with your cat, but then you risk exposing her to disease, parasites and ringworm. Plus you would also be perpetuating the suffering that goes on in those kind of places.
 

Willowy

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But bc all my friends are so "responsible" no one has unfixed males.
It's not even about being "responsible"; tomcats are extremely difficult to live with indoors. They are very prone to spraying, and their urine STINKS even if they don't spray. Purebred breeders usually have separate quarters for their toms. Most pet cat owners who aren't responsible enough to neuter their cats end up throwing them outside when they get stinky. So that's why, even among the most irresponsible of cat owners, it's difficult to find an indoor tomcat.

Good purebred breeders care about their bloodlines and the welfare of the cats from their bloodlines. And they probably don't want to get kicked out of their breed club.
 

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My point is that if it is ok to allow a pedigreed cat to reproduce it is ok to allow my cat to reproduce: it doesn't impact the ability of existing cats to exist any differently.
Hi! I understand why it might initially seem that producing pedigreed cats would be equivalent to producing any other kittens.

However, the fact is that most of our pedigreed breeds actually have very low population numbers, and to prevent these breeds from dying out completely or reaching an unsustainable level of inbreeding, a certain number of kittens must be produced to maintain effective population size in the gene pool. Only a few of our pedigreed breeds have high enough populations that they are not constantly in danger of disappearing.

As an example, in my breed there are fewer than 100 kittens born each year in the United States (and in most years, fewer than 50 kittens), and of course many of these are placed as spayed / neutered pets. If the few breeders working with this breed stopped breeding these cats completely... our breed would disappear. We work with other breeders all over the world to actively manage our gene pool in a responsible manner. We actually use software and methods similar to how endangered species are preserved. Most of us consider ourselves to be preservation breeders, working to maintain our historic breed's characteristics while preserving health and genetic diversity.

Compare this with the number of non pedigreed kittens born in the United States. There are around 90 million owned cats in the United States, nearly all of these being domestic cats that are not any specific breed, and I have seen estimates that there are at least as many unowned feral / community cats. Most owned cats (about 80%) are spayed/neutered, but most unowned cats are actively reproducing, which leads to a constant stream of kittens being produced by feral mothers.

Here's information from Alley Cat Allies about the number of owned vs. unowned cats that are spayed/neutered: New Scientific Study Finds Vast Majority of Pet Cats Are Neutered

Here's a study in which each unspayed free-roaming female was observed to produce an average of 4.2 kittens per year: Reproductive capacity of free-roaming domestic cats and kitten survival rate - PubMed
 
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purrfect mom

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Thank you, Lutece in particular. I applaud breeding to ensure that the particular breed doesn't die out.
We adopted this rescue- - who appeared to have fleas, was underweight, and living in our yard. The cat -- or kittens/father may be part Siberian/MC according to what breeders have indicated from pics.
I still am quite unclear -- maybe it's really basic and I'm just missing it - as to why the genetics of my cat will affect the genetics of a stud cat. Obviously the genetics of my cat will affect the kittens. The genetics of my cat appear to be fine: she is perfectly healthy and wonderful, with no diseases.
And, before looking askance at people giving kittens to friends they know will take good care of them, I ask, what is the alternative? Giving them to people they don't know will take good care of them? For goodness' sakes. I really can't think of a better family than one to whom 2 of kittens from the litter were given: church-going, generous, , just moved into a marvelous house,wonderful, donating money to help villagers in Africa, already with a 21-year old blind cat that obviously has been loved many years, a multi-generational household with plenty of people to spoil the cats. I mean, people, what do you want?? I really can't think of a better home.
Now, as to whether I could find a stud -- as to whether it would be against the rule of a particular club. Well, if it's against the rules it's against the rules, fine! Obviously, there are some clubs -- as indicated in replies above - though they may be few -- where it is not against the rules. So, obviously, again, all I am looking for is one unfixed male cat so that I don't have to let my cat out the back door. I am not interested in upending the entire world of breeding.
So I do applaud the idea of keeping blood lines going -- that's great - but I really am seeking just a little wee bit of practical info. For instance, if, among my friends (not breeders) I happen to find an unfixed male cat, does my cat have to be at his house for a day? 1/2 day? 3 days? Thanks.
 

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why the genetics of my cat will affect the genetics of a stud cat.
It won't. But the stud owner cares about the kittens their cat fathers. And there are sexually-transmitted diseases in the cat world too.
before looking askance at people giving kittens to friends they know will take good care of them, I ask, what is the alternative? Giving them to people they don't know will take good care of them?
The alternative is, usually, not making more kittens :D.

It's great that you found a terrific home for 2 of the kittens, but how many homes like that do you think you (or the shelter or anyone else trying to find homes for kittens) can find? And unfortunately, as the illustrious Dr House said, everybody lies. Someone may swear that they'll provide a lifelong caring home for the kitten but you talk to them again in a year and. . .well.

Not that I really want to encourage this, but I think the usual amount of time breeders leave their females at the stud's place is 3 days or so.

Here's information from Alley Cat Allies about the number of owned vs. unowned cats that are spayed/neutered: New Scientific Study Finds Vast Majority of Pet Cats Are Neutered
It doesn't mention it in that link, but I saw a similar study once that indicated that 75% of pet cats have had at least one litter before being spayed. So it's great that they're spayed, but 75% is still too many to be allowed to reproduce. To keep the population steady without an overpopulation, about 50% should be allowed to have one litter. So that would explain why there's still an overpopulation even though most pet cats are altered.
 
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purrfect mom

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One interesting note. A breeder w whom I spoke indicated that sometimes breeders want to continue one particular cool trait. W/my cat, she doesn't have white fur - her lighter fur is the color of coffee ice cream or the same color as pictures of Italian lattes. So even though she isn't a purebred I'd love that trait to continue. I have seen some cats with fur this color -- usually as models on packages of cat things - but not any in real life, besides my cat.
 

lutece

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Didn't you have a spay appointment for this cat back in August? I seem to remember having this conversation with you before.
 
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purrfect mom

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Thanks, Willowy, Interesting AlleyCat study. My cat is negative for Fel Aids.Leukemia. She's had rabies, Distemper, combo. So of course I wouldn't want her to give any diseases to a male; what else is there for which I'd need to test her, and for which would need to ensure that male had been tested for?
My cat -- when she got out and bred -- was gone 2.5 days. 3 dads. if I'm not trying to go for maximum # of kittens does it really need to be 3 days? And how many times do females just turn up their noses at male on offer? thx!
 

Willowy

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W/my cat, she doesn't have white fur - her lighter fur is the color of coffee ice cream or the same color as pictures of Italian lattes.
That's because it isn't white; she's a tortie and is black and red (orange). She looks like every other tortie, very cute and every cat is special, but nothing unusual.

I'm also wondering how you came up with Siberian/Maine Coon? Since she and the kittens aren't even longhaired.

On the plus side, if you want more torties all you need is a red cat and a dark cat, both with no white, and bam, all the females will be torties! (My mom has 7 cats, all female, and 6 of them are torties/calicos, lol. Definitely not rare.)
does it really need to be 3 days?
Well of course cats can get pregnant in 5 minutes but generally breeders want to make sure.
Hmm, I have to go back and read about the babies. While it's technically possible for there to be 3 dads, in reality it's fairly unusual. (Huh, I guess there aren't any pictures. What makes you think there were 3 dads?)

And, yeah, what happened to her spay appointment? Did it get cancelled again?
 
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lutece

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In my experience, the most reliable way to do stud service is that the female goes to the male when she's not in heat, and stays at the male's house for some number of weeks, enough for her to acclimate to the new place, come into heat and get bred. If she doesn't get pregnant right away, the process can take months.

Sometimes you can take a female to the male's house when she's in heat and they will breed right away... but often that doesn't work and she goes out of heat... or the two cats don't like each other and she needs to get used to him.

Of course if you don't want cats to get pregnant, all it takes is 5 minutes of someone getting outside, or into a room they shouldn't be in. But when you actually plan things, it doesn't always work the way you plan.

Do you have a breeder willing to work with you? If so, they should be able to help you with these questions. They would also be able to tell you which things to test your female for, etc. If they don't require any kind of testing or have policies in place, it's a sign they are too careless, and you probably don't want to work with them (or your female cat might come home sick). If you don't have a breeder willing to work with you, the questions are moot.

That's why I'm starting to feel a little bit trolled by your questions. Almost all of the people on this site are not breeders, and most of the advice you will get here is simply to spay your female. Why keep asking here?
 
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