Hi I’m new. Easy question I hope

[Marley&Luna]

Hello! So a bit of background. I found this site doing research after recently losing my beautiful girl at age 13 to kidney failure. The one who refused to eat anything but kibble (super premium natch) her entire life and I thought that was fine and dandy. Her older sister ate only kibble and died at 15, also from kidney failure. Another beloved cat who lived to be 22 ate a mix of moist and wet. Anecdotal yes. But I’m convinced.

So now we have Marley, a 5 year old tortie who’s always liked wet food and had been eating 50/50 cans and kibble, and our little Luna, a gray tabby who’s 12 weeks old. Almost as soon as we brought her home, we weaned them both off kibble and donated two huge bags of it to the shelter where we adopted Luna. We’re currently trying different brands and flavors of All Stages (and some kitten) to see what we like. Luna of course devours almost anything. Marley is a little more picky but doing very well. In the few weeks alone she’s been on wet exclusively she’s lost a little weight, her coat is even shinier and SO soft, and she’s stopped shedding hair when you pet her. It’s incredible! She’s more playful too but that could be life with a kitten!

But this is the raw forum so: I’m not ready to go full on raw but I have been experimenting. I’ve bought some commercial frozen, Stella & Chewy and Lotus. Luna is all “wooooohooooo!” but Marley doesn’t like it. What Marley does like however are whole pieces of raw chicken, duck, lamb, I get from the organic butcher. As a treat of course in addition to her food.

And finally to my question. I’m prepared to try buying some ground meat from our butcher and adding a good supplement and seeing how they like it. I’ve also been looking on Hare Today as they come highly recommended and see they have WHOLE ground rabbits and other meats available for raw feeding.

My question (finally & thanks for reading this far) is this: these whole ground meats that are described as including “Raw ground whole carcass rabbit. This is the whole rabbit including FUR, with the stomach and intestine removed.” or “Raw ground whole carcass quail. This is the entire bird including feathers.” are perfect prey and therefore require no supplements correct? Especially when fed not as an exclusive diet but in rotation with fresh and canned complete meals? Thank you!!

 

[Furballsmom]

Hi! I can't give feedback on your question but wanted to say welcome!! And that I will be following your thread since I am considering the same

I did find this on their site, which doesn't really address your question, since you're going to be rotating raw and commercial;
Please note that Whole Carcass products such as Rabbit, Mice, Cavies and Quail should be fed with a balance of dressed proteins. Whole Carcass fiber has shown to be beneficial in feline diets, but high fiber may lead to lower amounts of pancreatic enzymes which can decline nutrient absorption.

More information here: StackPath

 

[Marley&Luna]

Hi! I can't give feedback on your question but wanted to say welcome!! And that I will be following your thread since I am considering the same

I did find this on their site, which doesn't really address your question, since you're going to be rotating raw and commercial;
Please note that Whole Carcass products such as Rabbit, Mice, Cavies and Quail should be fed with a balance of dressed proteins. Whole Carcass fiber has shown to be beneficial in feline diets, but high fiber may lead to lower amounts of pancreatic enzymes which can decline nutrient absorption.

More information here: StackPath

Thank you! What IS a cavie, anyway?

Hmm thank you for finding that. It will be in a rotation so hopefully. I read somewhere that some taurine can be lost even from grinding. No idea if that’s true.

 

[Furballsmom]

A cavie is a South American rodent-type animal

 

[Marley&Luna]

Cool thanks. Sounds tasty!

 

[Box of Rain]

Thank you! What IS a cavie, anyway?

Hmm thank you for finding that. It will be in a rotation so hopefully. I read somewhere that some taurine can be lost even from grinding. No idea if that’s true.

Cavy is generally a euphemism for a guinea pig, but there are related species.

Bill

 

[furmonster mom]

Hi and welcome!

I started down the raw feeding path back in ‘08, when it was still a more or less “new and radical” thing.
My first forays were timid affairs, especially during the transition period, but eventually I went with the “franken-prey” route. This entailed a lot of math to figure out just exactly how much meat, bone, and organ to include for every single meal. I’d cut everything in chunks and package the meals up for the freezer. It was very labor intensive.

I did try feeding whole mice a few times, but my little monsters weren’t interested, so I never really went any further down that path. As I understand it, those who feed whole prey like the idea that it’s naturally complete. My concern, as has been mentioned, is balance. Most cats wont actually eat an entire bird/rodent, there is almost always part of a carcass left. So I was never really sure about how balanced a whole prey grind really is.

Eventually, I invested in a grinder that could handle chicken bone, and it has been a game changer. Calculating the percentages for a 10 lb batch is much simpler, as is the packaging.

I have a rotation of blends that I make: chk/hrt/lvr, pk/kdny, beef/melt, lamb/brain. The chicken blends are the only ones with bone, heart, and liver content, so they get fed every other day. I add psyllium to the other blends for fiber.
I get my main meats from Costco, and my organ meats from Asian and Mexican markets.

 

[Marley&Luna]

Thanks everyone! Furmonster I’m very impressed with your set up. I may get there one day but for now we’re experimenting. They enjoyed a little organic ground turkey yesterday. I suspect my first real attempts at raw meals outside commercial (as opposed to treats) will involve meats from our butcher and a supplement like TCFeline. I may try Hare Today as well for the same and/or treats if whole carcass. I’d love to get them to a 75/25 or 60/40 wet/raw ratio but I’m just not sure if Marley is going to go for that. Time will tell and I will keep researching.

In the meantime, we’re giving fresh a try as well. Just ordered a trial pack and subscribed to Smalls. Also interested in Amazing Grace but can’t riddle out if it’s All Life Stages and they’ve not responded to my query.

 

[Marley&Luna]

So I thought I’d update everyone on Smalls in case others are interested. Obviously cats are all different.

The trial pack arrived less than 24 hours after I received the shipping notice. Everything was frozen solid and in great shape. It was super easy to go in and change the contents of my next box and to change the date on its shipping as they sent a lot of food, I only have two cats, and I needed more time. Easy peasy.

The food looks good and very fresh and the girls went bonkers for the smell as I’d dish it out. They recommend the microwave for a few seconds to bring it to room temp, which is kind of a pain but I’d be happy to do the extra step if only they liked it! Sadly, they did not.

They both only eat wet so this wasn’t a transition issue. It’s also not like they just walked away. No, they’d eat some of it, a few bites, then walk away and end of story. Didn’t matter meat or texture. It was always the same: Meh. Finally we get to the smooth Other Bird (turkey) and they seemed to like it. But day 2 not so much.

So not a horrendous failure, but a no go for us nonetheless. It was super straightforward to cancel the subscription, though they do make you go through a couple of steps which, ok I get it. But really I’m sure.

I don’t feel the need to get a refund for the trial. I feel it was worth trying.

They sent a sweet toy with the trial pack. THAT the girls loved!

 

[LTS3]

Cats are picky about food. They may show initial interest in a food and then refuse to look at it again but if you keep offering the food, they'll eventually decide it's ok to eat. Toppers can help. I'd give the food more time. Use up the rest of the trial package so it doesn't go to waste.

 

[Furballsmom]

Thanks so much for the follow-up!

 

[Marley&Luna]

Yes I’ll finish up the two that are left. I won’t waste them. But there are too many good foods that they love from good brands, plus they eat some raw, and I don’t want to get into toppers. As I said they EAT it, they just don’t love it.

 

[Marley&Luna]

So today I did my first attempt at making raw food using TCFeline, water, egg yolks, ground organic grass fed beef and ground elk.

It was easy peasy and not even messy. Put into ice cube trays that are freezing as we speak.

As anticipated, little Luna ate it, Marley did not. I mixed a little into her food too and she pretty much ate around it.

I’ll keep trying but I’m beginning to think I’ll have one raw-eating cat who’ll eat whatever, and one who’ll only eat raw cuts of meat & liver. Which is better than nothing. Cans will continue to be the preponderance/balance of their diet for now.

 

[Furballsmom]

Good on you for trying, and being persistent - maybe Marley will come around

 

[Box of Rain]

Is this just a texture issue for Marley, given--if I understand the situation correctly--that she will eat meat and organs that are not ground?

Would the TCFeline pre-mix work with a hand-mince that would appeal to both Marley and Luna?

Bill

 

[LTS3]

Did you buy the beef already ground up? It's generally discouraged to buy ground meat because you don't know how clean the grinding machine is. Bacteria gets mixed into the meat. Cooking will kill off the bacteria so it's safe to eat but then that becomes a home cooked diet and not a raw one. It's preferred to buy whole cuts of meat and grind it yourself at home or cut into cat-sized pieces with a sharp knife.

 

[Box of Rain]

Did you buy the beef already ground up? It's generally discouraged to buy ground meat because you don't know how clean the grinding machine is. Bacteria gets mixed into the meat. Cooking will kill off the bacteria so it's safe to eat but then that becomes a home cooked diet and not a raw one. It's preferred to buy whole cuts of meat and grind it yourself at home or cut into cat-sized pieces with a sharp knife.

This is quite true. Purchasing more primal cuts (unground) is far preferable as a way to minimize bacteria when raw feeding.

It seems like many cats--quite naturally--also have more issues with more processed feeling meat textures.

It is also my operating assumption that the more "work" one takes away from cats (and dogs) in terms of tearing and gnawing the less they benefit from the positive aspects of raw feeding of promoting good dental health and the strength of teeth, gums, and neck and jaw bones and muscles. Ideally that would include some Raw Meaty Bones (RMBs) in the mix, rather than just using pre-mixes with calcium--but one step at a time.

Bill

 

[Marley&Luna]

Thanks for your comments and advice everyone. Yes I bought pre-ground meat from a trusted source. I read somewhere this is fine if you freeze the meat for a few weeks, which I did. I don’t own a grinder and it’s not something I see myself getting into. But I could ask my organic butcher to grind meat for me on the spot, or try Hare Today. But for now, I’m just trying to see what they’ll eat. Marley likes canned pates and will sometimes eat ground meat just meat. So I don’t think it’s a textural thing. But, that‘s ok because Luna eats it and Marley eats chunks and I’ll keep trying.

 

[Marley&Luna]

Well an update on Amazing Grace. The girls loooove both flavors, chicken & beef. It’s intermittent feeding though, but will include in the rotation from time to time.

 

[Furballsmom]

Thanks for the update !