Gracie's aggression connections.

[Krienze]

I'm sure some of you remember my post about Gracie and Mia, how Gracie started bullying Mia sometime last year. It got to the point where Gracie pretty much 'monitored' Mia and wouldn't let her even leave the kitchen. I noticed Mia started peeing blood, took her to the vet and she was treated for a UTI. Problem with Gracie persisted. But I'd say it IS a little better. Now after the ordeal with Charlie, Gracie targets HIM too. She completely leaves the other cats and dogs alone, no aggression save for the TWO cats who had a medical issue. Breaks my heart because she and Charlie used to LOVE each other.

I tried calming sprays, calming treats, calming wipes, the diffuser, reintroducing.. does anyone have any suggestions? I've made peace with the idea that they may never be best friends again, but I want her to stop attacking Mia and Charlie =(

 

[FeebysOwner]

Hi. How exactly is it a little better between Gracie and Mia? If things did get a bit better, did they start to get worse between Gracie and Mia again when Gracie began targeting Charlie?

What are the interactions that are going on now - Gracie to Mia, and Gracie to Charlie? Maybe explaining some of the scenarios would help.

If either cat is on meds, that could be a trigger for Gracie too, as many meds can change a cat's scent.

It doesn't sound like Mia or Charlie stand up for themselves, so Gracie has free reign to treat them how she pleases. I don't know what you do to 'correct' her, so I will wait to hear more details.

 

[Alldara]

Also just wondering if you spoke to your vet about this and if yes, what did they suggest?

 

[Krienze]

I'm so sorry! I got caught up in some work stuff and completely forgot to come on here to reply!!

Mia's not on meds and the only thing Charlie takes is the gabapentin and we haven't given him that in a week or so. He's also taking the purina flora stuff, but idk if that counts as meds??

What are the interactions that are going on now - Gracie to Mia, and Gracie to Charlie? Maybe explaining some of the scenarios would help.

Basically Gracie 'chases' them. If Mia or Charlie get to close to the gate, she'll chase them back into the kitchen. Or she'll walk up and 'smack' where they are. Like just now, Charlie is in the litter box in the kitchen and she walked up and smacked the box then ran away.
She then circled the kitchen island and kind of 'stares' at him from a distance. Intimidation feels, honestly. Charlie and Mia both kind of hunker down and try and wait for her to leave before they move, most of the time. Or she'll flat out CHARGE them and chase them to a specific spot, then walk away.

How exactly is it a little better between Gracie and Mia? If things did get a bit better, did they start to get worse between Gracie and Mia again when Gracie began targeting Charlie?

Since Mia's UTI was cleared up, she started to get more confident. She comes out more instead of just hiding from Gracie, but that's the only real difference. Gracie bullies her pretty much the same as she did when she see's her.

It doesn't help that when Gracie IS calm, Mia's been conditioned by her to be nervous, so Mia's growls or yowls when she gets to close, which causes Gracie to react.

It doesn't sound like Mia or Charlie stand up for themselves, so Gracie has free reign to treat them how she pleases. I don't know what you do to 'correct' her, so I will wait to hear more detai

They don't, they just run away.

We've tried clapping our hands, removing her physically, tried even using a spray bottle which I hate and avoid, tried making sounds to deter her, but she hyper fixates. Tried calming treats, even gave her a dose of the gabapentin (which the doctor said was fine) and she POWERED through it as if we didn't give her any (when that size dose knocks Charlie out...)

Also just wondering if you spoke to your vet about this and if yes, what did they suggest?

He didn't really suggest anything but we didn't touch on it TOO much, he suggested putting them in a room alone, but I don't want to do that with Charlie because I don't want him stressed out, you know?


I don't understand, honestly. Charlie and Gracie were best friends, now she torments him. She used to get along with Mia, she torments her now. The only thing they both had in common was they both got sick.

All the other cats who were hissy and 'eh' with Charlie when he came home have totally gotten over it and love him again.

 

[FeebysOwner]

I don't think the 'corrective action' you've taken with Gracie is beneficial. When you remove her, what do you do with her? Spraying her with water is a definite no-no, and clapping hands is something that might startle a cat at first, but eventually when they see there is no other action taken, they can pretty much ignore it. Not to mention, that can startle the other cats as well.

What did you do when you say you tried to re-introduce them?

So, you currently have other cats in the household and Gracie co-exists with them peacefully? If there are no other cats besides these three, then the next question is when was the last time Gracie was seen/examined/tested by a vet?

Any type of effort to change behavior requires consistency - that means Gracie cannot be allowed to attack/run after/stalk/etc. without intervention - each and every time, for as long as it takes.

 

[Krienze]

I don't think the 'corrective action' you've taken with Gracie is beneficial. When you remove her, what do you do with her? Spraying her with water is a definite no-no, and clapping hands is something that might startle a cat at first, but eventually when they see there is no other action taken, they can pretty much ignore it. Not to mention, that can startle the other cats as well.

What did you do when you say you tried to re-introduce them?

So, you currently have other cats in the household and Gracie co-exists with them peacefully? If there are no other cats besides these three, then the next question is when was the last time Gracie was seen/examined/tested by a vet?

Any type of effort to change behavior requires consistency - that means Gracie cannot be allowed to attack/run after/stalk/etc. without intervention - each and every time, for as long as it takes.

The issue initially started around Christmas last year (I believe) when Milo started trying to initiate play with Mia. Mia does NOT like to play with other cats, she saw this as aggression I think. It turned into Milo constantly harassing Mia, which in turn turned into Charlie and Gracie both joining in. We took Mia to the vet and found out she had a UTI, got her treated, brought her home and while we still had SOME minor issues here and there with Charlie and Milo being irritating with her, things otherwise went back to normal for her with the other cats in general, save for with Gracie herself. Gracie pretty much chases her back into the kitchen and away from the cat room/living room whenever she sees her, though lately Mia's gotten braver about venturing out into the house to lay with me on the couch, etc.

She was fine with Charlie until Charlie had his blockage, now suddenly Gracie's showing the same aggression with him as she did Mia.

Because of the way our house is laid out we don't really have doors we can use to do reintroductions from behind closed doors, however when Charlie came home he was in a pen for a long time while he recovered. She'd sniff the pen, attack it, he hardly seemed phased by THAT.

Now that we're letting him stay out (since strictures are not a concern anymore and I don't have to watch his pee AS close.) we're dealing with her going at him. It's not ALL the time? There are times she will just sniff and watch him.

Other than Charlie and Mia, Gracie is fine with the other cats. She every so often bats at Jasper, but only in a playful way. She's also fine and gentle with the three dogs. No aggression with the humans in the house either.

The vet I took Mia to seemed pretty sure this was directly a result of Mia being sick and Gracie trying to 'weed out' the weak, but Charlie NOR Mia are sick anymore and the other cats have all gone back to normal with them.

I tried rubbing blankets on them both to scent swap, I've tried calming spray, calming treats. etc.

I don't really know what to do TO correct her, to be honest.

 

[FeebysOwner]

The only thing I know to do is what I suggest to others. When Gracie goes to attack one of these cats, you pick her up, say 'No' in her face or hiss at her, and place her in a 1-2 minute time out EACH AND EVERY TIME. She needs to have this happen consistently to learn that it is not acceptable that she bothers the other cats. It's not going to happen overnight, so patience and diligence on your part is the only way to eventually have her 'get it'.

 

[Alldara]

I think it's very important to build positive interactions and encourage neutral or positive interactions.
Just the punishment half of conditioning is never going to rewire a brain very quickly. Its not very motivating.

Every time you see a neutral interactions, tell them they are good. Give pets. Doesn't matter between who because this is teaching them about the reward.

Set up some positive interactions with treats or toys even if they cats are far-ish apart. Times where you can have them be close, have a treat and walk away or have one playing with a toy and one observing.


Also I think assessing the places she likes to be for "escape routes". You want to ensure each place she likes to rest has more than one cat pathway that is accessible for her age.

 

[Alldara]

You see how that top bed would normally only have one route? (Next level down) but by placing the second cat furniture, there's now two routes. So if one cat comes up and is annoying the second cat doesn't have to go through thr first to "escape". Once you get to the second level there are multiple other levels that can be taken, but the tree was poor for a multitude cat home at the greatest height.

Multiple routes builds confidence and security and helps to prevent bullying.

 

[Krienze]

The only thing I know to do is what I suggest to others. When Gracie goes to attack one of these cats, you pick her up, say 'No' in her face or hiss at her, and place her in a 1-2 minute time out EACH AND EVERY TIME.

I'll try this. We still have Charlie's pen set up. Do you think that'd be effective? It's not a small pen by any means.

Also I think assessing the places she likes to be for "escape routes". You want to ensure each place she likes to rest has more than one cat pathway that is accessible for her age.

there's now two routes. So if one cat comes up and is annoying the second cat doesn't have to go through thr first to "escape".

So the way we have things set up, is in the kitchen we have a cat tree by the window so they can look out.
In the living room we have another cat tree, and a small cat house on the opposite side.

The problem seems to be, for Mia anyway, that when she tries to go down the hallway to get to the cat room, Gracie chases her (and now Charlie) back into the kitchen. I'm not sure how to set up escape routes since it's a straight forward hall, that and it's semi narrow so there's not really any way i could add shelves without it being a problem for walking.

The cat room is set up really well with a dresser by the window for them to lounge on, and multiple sizes of cat trees (four total) along the wall.

Sadly not much else we can do escape route wise, but these cats have SO much cat furniture, it's not even funny. x.x

 

[FeebysOwner]

I'll try this. We still have Charlie's pen set up. Do you think that'd be effective? It's not a small pen by any means.

When I think of a time out, I think of a room whereby the door can be closed. I am not a big fan of placing a cat in a small pen for a time out, especially if it allows visibility between the two cats involved. That's just me.

 

[Krienze]

When I think of a time out, I think of a room whereby the door can be closed. I am not a big fan of placing a cat in a small pen for a time out, especially if it allows visibility between the two cats involved. That's just me.

If I put her behind a closed door, I'm not sure she'll consider that a time out. I have to figure out a room I can do that in, since the only other room I have is the cat room (the other rooms she can't go in because of work being done/people sleeping)

 

[FeebysOwner]

If I put her behind a closed door, I'm not sure she'll consider that a time out. I have to figure out a room I can do that in, since the only other room I have is the cat room (the other rooms she can't go in because of work being done/people sleeping)

Given a time out should really only be 1-2 minutes, is a bathroom possible?

 

[Krienze]

Given a time out should really only be 1-2 minutes, is a bathroom possible?

Our floor was damaged in the hurricane a few years ago and we haven't had the time/money to fix it (other expenses, basically) and I'm SO afraid of another CiCi situation because she pulls the floor things up and manages to uproot the vent again >.<

 

[Alldara]

If I put her behind a closed door, I'm not sure she'll consider that a time out. I have to figure out a room I can do that in, since the only other room I have is the cat room (the other rooms she can't go in because of work being done/people sleeping)

She will. It teaches her when to go away. A time out isn't a punishment. She doesn't need to feel punished. She is learning how to manage.

We used to do this with Magnus... put him away for his nap and he would then put himself away for his nap after a few weeks.

 

[Krienze]

She will. It teaches her when to go away. A time out isn't a punishment. She doesn't need to feel punished. She is learning how to manage.

We used to do this with Magnus... put him away for his nap and he would then put himself away for his nap after a few weeks.

I'll try!

She was, surprisingly, pretty good today. Knock on wood x.x