Good News re Ear Cropping/Tail Docking

snake_lady

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Originally Posted by EsmeDarling

this is just plain scary to me....That you would vote for a bill or whatnot that would take away our choices....our freedoms

What do you all think about BSL? (for those of you who don't know what that is, it stands for breed specific legislation)

I know it isn't the same thing and I am not trying to say it is, just wondering where you stand with BSL. Is it ok for the government to tell us what dogs we can and cannot own?
I think that would be a great topic for the IMO forum
 

arlyn

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Originally Posted by EsmeDarling

this is just plain scary to me....That you would vote for a bill or whatnot that would take away our choices....our freedoms

What do you all think about BSL? (for those of you who don't know what that is, it stands for breed specific legislation)

I know it isn't the same thing and I am not trying to say it is, just wondering where you stand with BSL. Is it ok for the government to tell us what dogs we can and cannot own?
No one here is talking about any bill or law banning it other than what other countries have done.
You want the choice to cosmetically alter your dogs, and those of us that are opposed to it, want the choice of having natural looking dogs.
This is about the fact that the American Kennel Club has decided to let natural dogs compete in the show rings, giving owners/breeders the choice.
Since we prefer natural looking dogs, don't you think it only fair that we are allowed a choice rather than the animals just automatically being changed for us?
Do you think it's right that a dog that fits the standard in every way be banned from being shown because it hasn't had a cosmetic procedure?

Last I checked, the AKC was not a governing body of any sort, so I'm having a hard time figuring out where and why you feel so threatened
 

esmedarling

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I'd be hard pressed to find an article from a rescue or even a vet that states cropping and docking is a good thing.

Even the vets who crop, try not to promote it because they get attacked by people who don't approve.

The vets who do a good show crop are often only in contact with those who approve of cropping, and nothing they could say would change your minds so it dosn't matter. And no matter how many times I hear that cropping and docking is mean or painful.... I will never stop doing it. I will always find a way to get my dobermans cropped, or I will not own them.

ewwww: http://www.dpca.org/BreedEd/images/M...Kemp_small.jpg

nice (my dogs grandsire) : http://www.blackshadowkennel.com/ev/novedades_ev.htm
 

lil maggie

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Originally Posted by EsmeDarling

And no matter how many times I hear that cropping and docking is mean or painful.... I will never stop doing it. I will always find a way to get my dobermans cropped, or I will not own them.
You, yourself said that a dog goes through 6 days of pain.
 

yosemite

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Originally Posted by EsmeDarling

I'd be hard pressed to find an article from a rescue or even a vet that states cropping and docking is a good thing.
I'm certain we all agree on that statement.
 

cjh27

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... hmm, I find it quite sad that your remark towards some one elses (un-cropped/un-docked) doberman is "Ewww".

Is an un-cropped/un-docked doberman really that revolting to you? Loving/ liking a dog or a breed should be about more then just the length of the tail or the shape of the ears.

christine
 

esmedarling

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Originally Posted by cjh27

... hmm, I find it quite sad that your remark towards some one elses (un-cropped/un-docked) doberman is "Ewww".

Is an un-cropped/un-docked doberman really that revolting to you? Loving/ liking a dog or a breed should be about more then just the length of the tail or the shape of the ears.

christine
It is more than ears and tail. It is about upholding what the original breeder wanted. It is about loving the breed that Louis Dobermann created, in the manner in which he created it.

the breed is being destroyed and this sort of cropping/docking ban that some states are talking about will destroy them.

Why are you talking like AKC letting uncropped/undocked dogs in the ring like it is a NEW thing? It isn't. Uncropped dogs have been in the ring for a long time. They just don't do as well. And that is an argument you will have to take up with the judges. not breeders or owners. When the judges start placing more uncropped dogs, you will start to see more uncropped dogs I am sure. I just won't own one.
 

esmedarling

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Originally Posted by lil maggie

You, yourself said that a dog goes through 6 days of pain.
so? she lived through it just fine. and looks better because of it.
 

yosemite

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Originally Posted by EsmeDarling

so? she lived through it just fine. and looks better because of it.
So, if the majority of us thought you would look better with your ears cut down to a smaller size and re-shaped and you were unable to say no or voice an opinion on the 6 days of pain that you would have to endure, that would be alright with you? Let's hope you never have to endure someone disfiguring you because they didn't like the way you look. As to her looking better for the docking, that is very subjective. Michael Jackson, Joan Rivers, Donatella, Mickey Rourke all think they look better after surgery too, but I have to say to me they look bad and I feel sorry for them that they felt they had to do this.

I agree that it's really a sad day when you can look at a beautiful dog and because it has not been surgically re-structured you can say "Ewwww".
 

cjh27

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Originally Posted by EsmeDarling

It is more than ears and tail. It is about upholding what the original breeder wanted. It is about loving the breed that Louis Dobermann created, in the manner in which he created it.
Hi,

Karl Friedrich Louis Dobermann created the breed in 1890. Wether or not he would agree to cropping/docking now, in 2009, is something non of us can judge.

As you mentioned BSL earlier on- wouldn't it make sense not to dock or crop a doberman as uncropped dogs look friendlier with their floppy ears? Times change- so why shouldn't the breed change with time?

Christine
 

lil maggie

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Originally Posted by lil maggie

You, yourself said that a dog goes through 6 days of pain.
Originally Posted by EsmeDarling

so? she lived through it just fine. and looks better because of it.
Ok, let's break that down.

"so?" - big deal, I don't care that the dog went through pain.

"she lived through it just fine" - I'm sure she did, it wasn't life or death.

"and she looks better because of it" - Inflicting uneccessary pain just to LOOK better.
I say uneccessary because it doesn't benefit the dog's health whatsoever. All these people are doing by cropping is altering a dog's looks for their own benefit - not the dog. You can debate that until the cows come home that it benefits the dog, but at the end of the day, the dog does not care that it looks pretty.

For those who don't want, won't own or can't bear the thought of an uncropped dog, I pity you. I can without a doubt, have and love a dog that is missing a leg and not pretty just as well as an 'ewww' uncropped dog.
 

lmunsie

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Originally Posted by WellingtonCats

OMG that first dog is gorgeous - how can you say "EWWWW"?
that dog is beautiful! Looks like a gorgeous and stunning dobe to me
 

snake_lady

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Originally Posted by EsmeDarling

I'd be hard pressed to find an article from a rescue or even a vet that states cropping and docking is a good thing.
I wonder why that is.

The vets who do a good show crop are often only in contact with those who approve of cropping, and nothing they could say would change your minds so it dosn't matter. And no matter how many times I hear that cropping and docking is mean or painful.... I will never stop doing it. I will always find a way to get my dobermans cropped, or I will not own them.
You are probally right, that nothing would change my mind but to be educated one has to listen to both sides and make an informed decision, hence my willingness to listen.

I've listened to you, and so far you've disproved any points you've tried to make by the one statement of your dog spending 6 days in pain for something strictly cosmetic.

I am truly scared by your statement of " I will always find a way to get my dobermans cropped".


Wow, thanks for the first link..... Absolutely stunning.
 

esmedarling

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Originally Posted by Snake_Lady

I wonder why that is.



Wow, thanks for the first link..... Absolutely stunning.
yeah.... ummm no.... even if the dog in the first link was cropped and docked is not a good representation of the breed. Not a nice lay back of the shoulder. weak hind end. no chest, and very snippey nose. It's head is not wedge shaped either. Overall not balanced and a poor representation of the breed. The only reason you say that dog is nice it to slight me... so I will no longer reply to this thread. I know what my position is and NOTHING will change that.

and a little FYI: Renic's grandsire is a perfect representation of the breed. He was Best of Breed at the WORLD DOG SHOW in 2005. That show is bigger than the Westminster. Even if he was uncropped/undocked he would still be a perfect representation of the breed. just not as striking.
 

snake_lady

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Originally Posted by EsmeDarling

yeah.... ummm no.... even if the dog in the first link was cropped and docked is not a good representation of the breed. Not a nice lay back of the shoulder. weak hind end. no chest, and very snippey nose. It's head is not wedge shaped either. Overall not balanced and a poor representation of the breed. The only reason you say that dog is nice it to slight me... so I will no longer reply to this thread. I know what my position is and NOTHING will change that.
Did I say I was a judge???? How do you know whether I find a dog/cat/anything attractive? Look at all the responses, I wasn't the only one that finds that dog gorgeous.

Quite frankly I don't really care whether its a show dog or not. I thought it was beautiful ( I did NOT say it was a prime example of the breed) and in MY EYES it is. (a gorgeous dog that is)

I don't think anyone is trying to change your position whatsoever..... most on here will agree to disagree because that is what mature persons do when they can't agree.

Obviously you are taking this a little way too personal, maybe it is best that you follow through with what you said about not posting.
and a little FYI: Renic's grandsire is a perfect representation of the breed. He was Best of Breed at the WORLD DOG SHOW in 2005. That show is bigger than the Westminster. Even if he was uncropped/undocked he would still be a perfect representation of the breed. just not as striking.
FYI: My dogs have been mutts from the pound
that were rescued from a certain death.

Seriously, what is your point of the above statement? Does owning a good example of a breed make you an expert? If that is the case, my Brandy is a purebred Canadian Mutt and a stunning example of that so I deserve some bragging spots too.
 

Willowy

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Originally Posted by EsmeDarling

An uncropped doberman is no doberman in my eyes.
I still maintain that someone who only likes a breed for its looks is not really a fan of the breed at all....only a fan of the looks.

I also find it VERY sad that you would say "ewww" about an uncropped Dobe. Not a true fan of the breed, I see. There's so much more to a dog than its looks. Sure, you say now that he has bad conformation, etc., but you originally posted his pic as an example of an "ugly" uncropped Dobe.

I wonder what would happen if one of your dogs needed a leg amputated or had any other kind of disfiguring accident that left them unattractive. Seems to be all about looks for a lot of Dobe people.

Originally Posted by EsmeDarling

and a little FYI: Renic's grandsire is a perfect representation of the breed. He was Best of Breed at the WORLD DOG SHOW in 2005. That show is bigger than the Westminster. Even if he was uncropped/undocked he would still be a perfect representation of the breed. just not as striking.
Yes, but he still wouldn't win a show (or very many anyway) if he were uncropped/undocked, even though he is a perfect representation of the breed. And people like you would still say "ewwww" when they saw him. Sad. After learning more about the whole process, I no longer have any confidence in the dog showing (conformation) world to produce quality dogs. Good looking dogs, sure, but not necessarily physically and mentally sound dogs.
 

yosemite

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I know this thread was almost "dead", but I was at the All About Pets show this past weekend and was talking to a lady who had her beautiful dobermans there. I mentioned that I did not like cropping and docking - she went on to explain how necessary docking was and how "ugly" uncropped dogs were. Yup, it seems to be the consensus with dobie owners/breeders. Just as we were talking, an uncropped dobie went past with it's owner and the lady I was speaking to pointed and said see how unattractive that dog is, it would never get any points from a judge in the show ring.


I have to say I thought the uncropped dog was a beauty - no it's ears did not stand straight up but they lay beautifully against his face and it makes them less fierce looking.
 
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goldenkitty45

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One of the posters mentioned about uncropped/undocked dogs not winning in the rings. If that was so, then why in Europe where its banned you have championed dogs.

It will take awhile in USA to see changes and have uncropped dogs earning championships based on the standards, but it will happen. If the dog fits the standard then it will win.

And if the dog was supposed to have shorter ears/tails, then don't you think they would be BRED for that, instead of cutting them down???? Dobies are born with natural ears - and there is nothing wrong with leaving them that way!

IMO it STILL looks like a Dobie to me!
 

yosemite

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Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

One of the posters mentioned about uncropped/undocked dogs not winning in the rings. If that was so, then why in Europe where its banned you have championed dogs.

It will take awhile in USA to see changes and have uncropped dogs earning championships based on the standards, but it will happen. If the dog fits the standard then it will win.

And if the dog was supposed to have shorter ears/tails, then don't you think they would be BRED for that, instead of cutting them down???? Dobies are born with natural ears - and there is nothing wrong with leaving them that way!

IMO it STILL looks like a Dobie to me!
I agree of course. She went on to tell me about a dog she got for her breeding program from Scotland and how awful it looked without it's ears cropped. I hope these folks finally come around to be less inhumane to their dogs.
 
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