Fresh is Best freeze dried raw turkey - lower in phosphorus than other FD foods?

[lisamarie12]

Our Molly may have the beginning of CKD, per two vets, her blood work and urinalysis (in addition to more pressing health issues - severe IBD and possibly lymphoma based on her ultrasound, biopsy pending).

Her creatinine is on the high end of normal, 2.2 based on a range of 0.6 - 2.4.  Her first urinalysis was very dilute, the second "looked better".  Her sodium was out of range - high.

Anyway, I won't get into the details of what this poor girl has been through this past month, she's not even five years old and is currently on budesonide, lactulose and Synacore probiotic.

I've been looking for foods on the lower phosphorus range which vet # 2 said "wouldn't hurt to stave off potential CKD".  

For awhile she was eating only Primal FD but she gave that up about 2-3 months ago which I would have removed anyway based on the potential CKD. I have read that cats with CKD should not have any raw with bone or bone meal.   I would have liked Rad Cat (which her brother has been eating since I switched him from Primal to RC) but she won't eat it.

She was eating NV's LID duck and other Instinct formulas for quite some time but I am finding out now that Instinct formulas are all way too high in phosphorus after getting info from NV. The LID duck, for e.g., is a whopping 2.89, the duck / turkey, 1.89.

For the past three weeks, she was doing very well on Lotus Just Juicy pork, not as high in phos as NV, 1.01%, however, eating that only for the past three weeks she is losing interest. I briefly put her back on LID duck, she's very fussy with her food and it's one of the few foods she'll eat. Plus NV is carrageenan and gum free. She's tolerated Just Juicy, I wasn't sure about agar agar but she was fine on this.

I just contacted Fresh is Best inquiring about their phosphorus on a DMB for the turkey, Molly is allergic to chicken, and this is the reply I received:

Hi Lisa,

This is what I have for our poultry cat food DM.

                         Turkey            Chicken

Phosphorus          .61%            .66%

Ca/P ratio            .16/.61          .14/.66               

Here are the ingredients:

Turkey, Turkey Gizzards, Turkey Hearts, Turkey Livers, Turnip Greens, Collard Greens, Kale, Bone Meal, Carrots, Celery, Kelp, Apple Cider Vinegar, Potassium Chloride, Taurine, Dried Whey, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Iodate, Niacinamide, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid.

My question is, for those experienced with CKD cats -- do those phos numbers seem accurate based on FB's use of bone meal or should  I really just stay away from bone meal altogether? If the turkey number is correct, that is far lower in phos than NV's foods I've been using.

Thanks in advance for any feedback, much appreciated.

 

[goholistic]

I'm so sorry Molly is having so many issues. 

  That really is a lot to juggle.

The only thing I can say about Fresh Is Best is that I guess we can only assume and hope that the numbers they are giving you are accurate. You could always reply back to FIB and say you just wanted to double check the accuracy because that is low, in your experience, compared to other brands you've used. It doesn't hurt to question them again and see what they say.   

I know @mschauer has posted some homemade recipes for CKD cats using eggshell calcium if you're willing to make from scratch.

I think @mrsgreenjeens has experience with both raw feeding (in the past) and dealing with phosphorus content in CKD kitties.

However, with Molly's fussiness, CKD, IBD, and possible lymphoma, you may get to a point where you have to feed her whatever she will eat.  

  It's never so easy that they will just chow down on whatever we want them to eat. 

 

[lisamarie12]

 
I'm so sorry Molly is having so many issues. 

  That really is a lot to juggle.

The only thing I can say about Fresh Is Best is that I guess we can only assume and hope that the numbers they are giving you are accurate. You could always reply back to FIB and say you just wanted to double check the accuracy because that is low, in your experience, compared to other brands you've used. It doesn't hurt to question them again and see what they say.   

I know @mschauer has posted some homemade recipes for CKD cats using eggshell calcium if you're willing to make from scratch.

I think @mrsgreenjeens has experience with both raw feeding (in the past) and dealing with phosphorus content in CKD kitties.

However, with Molly's fussiness, CKD, IBD, and possible lymphoma, you may get to a point where you have to feed her whatever she will eat.  

  It's never so easy that they will just chow down on whatever we want them to eat. 

Exactly, that's what I'm prepared for actually, it may not necessarily be what I want her to eat.

I have seen those recipes mschauer posted, in fact there was a time I was homecooking for both cats, using Ustew. That novelty lasted all of one week though.

I may try again though, this time with Balance It and possibly organic meats, we'll see. For now she is stable, at least she's eating (oh boy is she eating, her appetite was ravenous, eating massive amounts of food, it has since stabilized with the steroid).

Thanks again GoHolistic, much appreciated.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

I feed Callie whatever she will eat.  We went from raw to Fancy Feast with GRAVY at one point.  Broke my heart, but you got to do what you got to do.  Now at least she's eating something that's low in carbs AND low in phos again, AND eating quite a bit

.  But I find she will love something for awhile,then give it up, then love it again as long as I withhold it for a couple of weeks before I try it on her again.  that might work for Molly too with the Lotus.

I say those numbers from Fresh is Best could very well be accurate.  Aren't they similar to Rad Cat's numbers?  Does she like it, or have you tried it yet? 

 

[goholistic]

 
Exactly, that's what I'm prepared for actually, it may not necessarily be what I want her to eat.

I have seen those recipes mschauer posted, in fact there was a time I was homecooking for both cats, using Ustew. That novelty lasted all of one week though.

I may try again though, this time with Balance It and possibly organic meats, we'll see. For now she is stable, at least she's eating (oh boy is she eating, her appetite was ravenous, eating massive amounts of food, it has since stabilized with the steroid).

Thanks again GoHolistic, much appreciated.

Glad to hear she has a good appetite right now. I remember when I was first researching GI issues for Sebastian, a lot people told me to be prepared to change things up. And boy were they right. I can't feed one thing forever because of the development of a food allergy/intolerance, which has happened, and he eventually gets tired of it anyway. If Sebastian got a pancreatitis flare while eating a certain food (not caused by the food), he associated the food with being sick and wouldn't touch it again...at least not for a few months. And then there's the issue of a new food not agreeing with him at all (i.e., diarrhea, upset stomach). It's been a never-ending battle.

Kudos to you for trying to do what's best, even if Molly has determined it's not the best! 

 

[lisamarie12]

 
I feed Callie whatever she will eat.  We went from raw to Fancy Feast with GRAVY at one point.  Broke my heart, but you got to do what you got to do.  Now at least she's eating something that's low in carbs AND low in phos again, AND eating quite a bit

.  But I find she will love something for awhile,then give it up, then love it again as long as I withhold it for a couple of weeks before I try it on her again.  that might work for Molly too with the Lotus.

I say those numbers from Fresh is Best could very well be accurate.  Aren't they similar to Rad Cat's numbers?  Does she like it, or have you tried it yet? 

I definitely understand feeding Callie - or any kitty that is ill, whatever they will eat, if they won't eat the "good stuff."    That's great that Callie is at least eating low phos and low carb.

Molly got tired of Lotus pork, unfortunately, it was on the lower phos end.  I'm a bit confused though with these phos numbers, NV told me that their LID duck canned on a dmb was 2.89 yet when I use the fnae.org calculator for the phos listed on Instinct's web site for LID duck (based on GA), the result is 0.8%. So I don't know. And Dr. Pierson's chart is just too dated to get an accurate value, she even suggests for people to contact the manufacturers.

I called FIB today to discuss the low phos #  for the FD turkey but Stacy, who founded the company and sent me the email, was out.  The company is based in Wisconsin.  I had a nice chat with her assistant (who is new). She was telling me that Stacy started the company b/c her dog had Addison's disease and started formulating these recipes.   She said Stacy is very dedicated to FIB (and will even be working Thanksgiving day), that I should call her - that she "loves talking about this stuff." 

I don't know about RadCat's phos numbers, I haven't contacted the company for the correct value. Mikey really likes RC turkey, Molly won't touch it.   I assume it's lower since eggshell is used but who knows.

I guess I should be grateful Molly is eating, at one point, her appetite was so ravenous she was eating about 20 ounces of food a day.  It's one reason her vet suspected lymphoma but I found info from other vet sites that indicate IBD can manifest in either a decreased or ravenous appetite. 

All I know is that when we change foods abruptly b/ c she gets tired of a certain food, as she did with Lotus, all digestive hell breaks loose. We had to temporarily stop the flavored liquid  butesonide b/c she developed a horrible allergic reaction, scratched the base of her neck raw, the size of the palm of my hand, in less than 12 hours. (  Now she is getting the unflavored capsule so we'll see how that goes.

Anyway, if FIB is accuracte, that would really be something - to have a FD raw food that is relatively low in phos, compared to S&C's and Primal, which has to be higher, I'm assuming, especially since I've read and been told that Primal uses mostly necks and backs in their turkey formula which makes it higher phos.

Thanks mrsgreenjeens. Happy T day to you.

 

[lisamarie12]

 
Glad to hear she has a good appetite right now. I remember when I was first researching GI issues for Sebastian, a lot people told me to be prepared to change things up. And boy were they right. I can't feed one thing forever because of the development of a food allergy/intolerance, which has happened, and he eventually gets tired of it anyway. If Sebastian got a pancreatitis flare while eating a certain food (not caused by the food), he associated the food with being sick and wouldn't touch it again...at least not for a few months. And then there's the issue of a new food not agreeing with him at all (i.e., diarrhea, upset stomach). It's been a never-ending battle.

Kudos to you for trying to do what's best, even if Molly has determined it's not the best! 

Oh wow, really? Molly is allergic to chicken but what I'm finding out about IBD is exactly what you mentioned - bc of their weakened immune system (which the steroids weaken even more, unfortunately), they can develop allergic reactions to other proteins.  I'm still not 100% she developed an allergic reaction to the flavored butesonide or maybe the Lotus pork or potato starch, who knows. But we had to stop both things and her itching ceased.

Interestingly her brother was loosely diagnosed with IBD several years ago. I say loosely b/c he never had an ultrasound or biopsy for a definitive diagnosis, his vet at that time suspected IBD due to vomiting and loose stools, fairly frequently. He is fine now though, three years later. It's amazing. Occasionally he vomits but not often. His stools are great. I guess he has mild IBD - the raw diet, or about 3/4 commercial raw and Instinct canned (or whatever Molly is eating if it's Lotus), works for him.

But how do you manage changing Sebastian's diet when you're presented with the disagreeable symptoms he has? I know we aren't supposed to change the food abruptly but if a cat isn't eating, what's the alternative? When I switched back over to duck, well, things just are not good now. We just restarted the butesonide so maybe that will help.

I don't know how some people can go back and forth with all kinds of different foods - their cats must have stomachs made of steel.

I'm wondering if maybe duck is too fatty a meat for her. She was fine on it before but at that time she was also getting a few ZiwiPeak air dried treats mixed in with the food. 

I don't know - we go day by day.  She has four more weeks of steroids every other day before we go back to the vet, unless, of course, she has another setback. ;( 

Thanks again and have a great holiday.

 

[lisamarie12]

On FIB's site it says that for the freeze dried foods a "bone meal supplement is used instead of ground bone", I'm definitely going to give it a try.

 

[goholistic]

But how do you manage changing Sebastian's diet when you're presented with the disagreeable symptoms he has? I know we aren't supposed to change the food abruptly but if a cat isn't eating, what's the alternative? When I switched back over to duck, well, things just are not good now. We just restarted the butesonide so maybe that will help.
I don't know how some people can go back and forth with all kinds of different foods - their cats must have stomachs made of steel.

I'm wondering if maybe duck is too fatty a meat for her. She was fine on it before but at that time she was also getting a few ZiwiPeak air dried treats mixed in with the food. 

It's certainly not by choice! He did really well on a nice rotation of canned and home-cooked meats and freeze-dried treats for about six months using several different proteins, and I would have been thrilled to continue that and even introduce new proteins. Unfortunately, his illness progressed and things have been sort of downhill from there. 

  Everything just started not to agree with him.

Sometimes I can start to see his stools change and I know it's time to switch it up. It's happening again now. Except this time he flat out started refusing the food before I had the chance to make a change. Now I'm forced to switch foods abruptly so that he's eating something. So you're exactly right. The result could be GI upset and diarrhea. Crossing my fingers that this time is different! 

Duck ended up being too fatty for Sebastian in the advanced stages of his disease. He could tolerate it well early on.

 

[lisamarie12]

It's certainly not by choice! He did really well on a nice rotation of canned and home-cooked meats and freeze-dried treats for about six months using several different proteins, and I would have been thrilled to continue that and even introduce new proteins. Unfortunately, his illness progressed and things have been sort of downhill from there.    Everything just started not to agree with him.

Sometimes I can start to see his stools change and I know it's time to switch it up. It's happening again now. Except this time he flat out started refusing the food before I had the chance to make a change. Now I'm forced to switch foods abruptly so that he's eating something. So you're exactly right. The result could be GI upset and diarrhea. Crossing my fingers that this time is different!  :cross:

Duck ended up being too fatty for Sebastian in the advanced stages of his disease. He could tolerate it well early on.

I'm really sorry to hear Sebastian is having a setback, I empathize. It sounds like the protein sources are limited as well.

What a scrouge this disease is, I've been reading so much about it.

I decided I'm going to join that FB group you mentioned, I'll open an account for that purpose as I've seen it mentioned now on two other sites, it could be a useful resource in addition to everything else, thanks for the heads up.

I hope Sebastian can make it through this latest diet change without the digestive upset, sending positive thoughts your way....

 

[lisamarie12]

 
I know @mschauer has posted some homemade recipes for CKD cats using eggshell calcium if you're willing to make from scratch.

I think @mrsgreenjeens has experience with both raw feeding (in the past) and dealing with phosphorus content in CKD kitties.

However, with Molly's fussiness, CKD, IBD, and possible lymphoma, you may get to a point where you have to feed her whatever she will eat.  

  It's never so easy that they will just chow down on whatever we want them to eat. 

Terrific, I just looked at those recipes again, really very comprehensive, thanks!

 

[mysticdragon72]

Having multiple GI issues myself I can empathize with these poor kitties in how they feel but thank goodness all five of my cats don't have any issues!
I know I'm no help but after reading the thread I wanted to say something about my issues. Good luck in finding something that they'll eat and won't mess with them! And kudos to anyone that has the patience to deal with cats with any disease

 

[lisamarie12]

Having multiple GI issues myself I can empathize with these poor kitties in how they feel but thank goodness all five of my cats don't have any issues!
I know I'm no help but after reading the thread I wanted to say something about my issues. Good luck in finding something that they'll eat and won't mess with them! And kudos to anyone that has the patience to deal with cats with any disease

Thank you, that's very nice of you, I appreciate it! I'm glad your five cats are healthy.

 

[mysticdragon72]

Thank you, that's very nice of you, I appreciate it! I'm glad your five cats are healthy.

I'm very glad they are as well! I know what it's like to not want to eat at all since with my issues I have constant nausea and so I'm never really hungry...you'd think I'd be skinny but I'm not lol
I feel horrible at times so I truly do empathize with cats that have issues with food. I can understand how they develop an aversion to foods they associate with making them feel bad and since they can't rationalize like us it's more difficult to get them to eat. I really am grateful that there are people out there that make the effort to keep those cats healthy. I don't think I'd be sane for long if I had a cat with GI issues! Heck I worry so much already when one of my cats don't eat enough lol