Finally (Hopefully) Getting Started Making Food... Checking Ratios, Supplements, Etc.

[kranek]

Hello!

I’ve made a couple posts here before with questions, and I feel that we’re now in a place where we can actually work on this diet for Diana (as soon as we dig out the freezer and buy a couple things).

I’d just like someone to check over my final recipe I made, to check the meat/bone/organ ratio and the supplement amounts (and a couple other minor questions). I feel I’ve done enough reading and I pretty much averaged the recipes from Cat Nutrition, CatInfo, and Feline Nutrition; I just want to double check.

I’m going to start out getting most of the meat from Hare-Today (they’re luckily only a couple hours from me, so I could do pickup) and the supplements from iHerb.

Diana is allergic to every type of poultry we’ve tried and eggs, so those have to be left out of recipes. That’s why I’ve focused on pork/beef. She does like both (despite her many allergies, she’s the least picky and the most food driven animal I know), and honestly- rabbit is dang expensive - so I'm leaving that out for now (except for the bone, since that's the cheapest bone source on hare-today I could grind myself that's not chicken).

Recipe: (You guys can ignore the cost columns, that was just for my math purposes, there's links to each product in the name).

Name	Cost	Cost / Unit	Amount Needed	Cost / Needed
Beef Trim	22.19 / 5lbs	4.44 / lb	1.5 lb (24 oz)	6.66
Pork Trim	17.49 / 5lbs	3.50 / lb	4.5 lbs (72 oz)	15.75
Pork Hearts	13.49 / 5lbs	2.70 / lb (0.17 / oz)	14 oz	2.38
Pork Liver	8.29 / 2lbs	4.15 / lb (0.25 / oz)	7 oz	1.75
Beef Kidney	7.99 / 2 lbs	4.00 / lb (0.25 / oz)	7 oz	1.75
Rabbit Skeleton*	4.99 / 4-6 lbs	1.00 / lb (0.06 / oz)	14 oz	0.84
MEAT TOTALS	81.43	x	138oz	29.13
Fish Oil	15.00 /240 softgels	0.06 / softgel	6 softgels	0.36
Vitamin E	14.88 / 100 capsules	0.15 / capsule	2 capsules	0.30
Vitamin B	11.93 / 100 capsules	0.12 / capsule	3 capsules	0.36
Taurine**	7.28 / 50 servings	0.15 / serving	1 serving	0.15
Morton Lite***	2.44 / 111 servings	0.02 / serving	3 servings	0.06
SUPP. TOTALS	$51.53	x	N/A	$1.23
TOTALS	$132.96	x	138oz + N/A	$30.36

*I based my per ounce/per pound math for the skeletons off of 5lbs. Also, the skeletons appear to still have some meat on them, so I would assume that the bone content would actually be slightly less than in my math?
**Taurine: 100g bottle is 100,000 mg. 100,000/2,000 = 50 2,000 mg servings. This is correct, instead of what the bottle says, right?
***Getting salt at Walmart. Bottle says serving is ¼ tsp, 222 servings. Every recipe goes by ½ tsp-1.5tsp, so 111 servings.
Note: Each recipe says to add anywhere from 1-2 cups of water. I plan to add 2, depending on how it looks when I’m mixing.

RATIOS:
-Seem to fit the 80 meat/10 bone/5 liver/5 other secreting to me, as long as I’m not missing something
-Meat + Heart: (24 + 72 + 14) / 138 = 0.797
-Liver: 7 / 138 = 0.051
-Other Organ: 7 / 138 = 0.051
-Bone: 14 / 138 = 0.101

PORTIONS:
-I’ve seen it said that you should feed 3% of their ideal body weight in ounces.
-Diana weights about 10 lbs. 160 oz * 0.03 = 4.80 oz
-That’s what’s fed daily, right? She gets fed twice a day, so 2.4 oz twice a day.

TOOLS:
-I am going to need a grinder, as I’ve tried giving her little chunks of things and she struggles/doesn't like it. I’d feel a bit more comfortable giving her something similar to the canned/pate/etc she’s used to. I see that tasin grinder recommended everywhere, but it seems to be discontinued and I can’t find a used one. I found this grinder that (according to the reviews) seems like it’s strong enough to get through chicken bone, so I assume it could get through rabbit as well? I’ve never seen a rabbit’s bones, but they seem like they would be pretty weak to me. I’d prefer to keep it around $200, but if anyone has any other recommendations I’d appreciate it.
-Along with that, what would I need to break apart those rabbit skeletons(I’ve never broken down any sort of carcass before)? The picture on hare-today’s site isn’t super clear, I’m assuming I would need to cut a couple joints, and then the ribs and spine? Is a large knife enough to do that, or would I need to get a pair of poultry shears (or something stronger?)


And that should (hopefully, haha) cover it! Sorry for the dump of information, I’ve been reading and reading and I still feel a bit anxious, ya know?
I appreciate any help, thanks!

 

[Furballsmom]

According to my partner who has worked with rabbit carcasses, the vertebra just below where the diaphragm meets, below the solar plexus, where the rib cage stops, that area should be easy enough to cut through with a strong paring knife (he says you don't need or want a big knife for this). Start with the point of the knife rather than the blade so you know you're into the bone of the vertebrae.

He's not at all sure that grinder will be able to handle rabbit bones, which aren't hollow like chicken bones.

Anyway, the above method should give you the hind quarters. And a note from me, big kudos to you, -- I haven't been able to take this step lol

 

[kranek]

According to my partner who has worked with rabbit carcasses, the vertebra just below where the diaphragm meets, below the solar plexus, where the rib cage stops, that area should be easy enough to cut through with a strong paring knife (he says you don't need or want a big knife for this). Start with the point of the knife rather than the blade so you know you're into the bone of the vertebrae.

He's not at all sure that grinder will be able to handle rabbit bones, which aren't hollow like chicken bones.

Anyway, the above method should give you the hind quarters. And a note from me, big kudos to you, -- I haven't been able to take this step lol

Good to know about the knife. I'll have to look up a diagram, but that sounds pretty straightforward.

About the grinder- oof. I was thinking about maybe taking a hammer to the larger pieces first anyways to "soften" them up a bit? (Ya know, the old "plastic bag wrapped in a towel, then start hitting" hack for when you smash stuff). I've seen people smash up chicken bones but, again, I wasn't sure how rabbit differed.

And thanks for the kudos, lol. I haven't done much besides research yet, but being about 90% vegetarian (meat-wise I really only eat ground beef... and gag cooking that sometimes) the thought of chopping up organs is a bit of a nightmare to me lol. But, my cat has too many dang allergies and I'm too frugal to buy preground meat. If I have to tough through it, I can do it for her haha.

Thanks again!

 

[Box of Rain]

I would reduce the bone percentage slightly, more towards 6-7% as this more closely mimics the typical bone content of cat's natural prey and many people report that 10% bone (which is a very good PMR ratio for dogs) is constipating for their cats.

Best wishes on your new adventure!

Bill

 

[lisahe]

I would reduce the bone percentage slightly, more towards 6-7% as this more closely mimics the typical bone content of cat's natural prey and many people report that 10% bone (which is a very good PMR ratio for dogs) is constipating for their cats.

Best wishes on your new adventure!

Bill

Yes to this! We used to feed what I'd estimate to be somewhere in the range of 7-10% bone and one of our cats was chronically, moderately constipated.

 

[Box of Rain]

Yes to this! We used to feed what I'd estimate to be somewhere in the range of 7-10% bone and one of our cats was chronically, moderately constipated.

My only caveat (speaking to a general audience here) would be that the stools of PMR fed cats will be small and quite dense compared with what people who have fed "conventionally" are used to seeing.

These small firm (and virtually odor-free) stools ought not be constipating, but one should expect them to be firm.

Upping the organs (especially the liver) slightly can help to keep things moving, just don't over-do it.

Bill

 

[kranek]

Yes to this! We used to feed what I'd estimate to be somewhere in the range of 7-10% bone and one of our cats was chronically, moderately constipated.

My only caveat (speaking to a general audience here) would be that the stools of PMR fed cats will be small and quite dense compared with what people who have fed "conventionally" are used to seeing.

These small firm (and virtually odor-free) stools ought not be constipating, but one should expect them to be firm.

Upping the organs (especially the liver) slightly can help to keep things moving, just don't over-do it.

Bill

Thanks, you two! So redoing a bit of math, this follows that a bit better:

Name	Cost	Cost / Unit	Amount Needed	Cost / Needed
Beef Trim	22.19 / 5lbs	4.44 / lb	1.5 lb (24 oz)	6.66
Pork Trim	17.49 / 5lbs	3.50 / lb	4.5 lbs (72 oz)	15.75
Pork Hearts	13.49 / 5lbs	2.70 / lb (0.17 / oz)	14 oz	2.38
Pork Liver	8.29 / 2lbs	4.15 / lb (0.25 / oz)	7 oz	1.75
Beef Kidney	7.99 / 2 lbs	4.00 / lb (0.25 / oz)	7 oz	1.75
Rabbit Skeleton*	4.99 / 4-6 lbs	1.00 / lb (0.06 / oz)	8 oz	0.36
MEAT TOTALS	81.43	x	132
Fish Oil	15.00 /240 softgels	0.06 / softgel	6 softgels	0.36
Vitamin E	14.88 / 100 capsules	0.15 / capsule	2 capsules	0.30
Vitamin B	11.93 / 100 capsules	0.12 / capsule	3 capsules	0.36
Taurine**	7.28 / 50 servings	0.15 / serving	1 serving	0.15
Morton Lite***	2.44 / 111 servings	0.02 / serving	3 servings	0.06
SUPP. TOTALS	$51.53	x	N/A	$1.23
TOTALS	$132.96	x	132 + N/A

Meat + Heart : (24 + 72 + 14) / 132 = 0.833
Liver: 7 / 132 = 0.053
Other Organ: 7 / 132 = 0.053
BONE: 8 / 132 = 0.061

Changing that bumps up the muscle meat percentage a bit, but I'm assuming it's okay to not be "Exactly" 80%, lol. But if so, I'll work that out later.
Other than that, do the supplement amounts look okay? That's honestly the part I'm struggling to understand the most. I haven't really found anything that says percentages (like the meat/bones/organ ratios) so I just kind of.... averaged three popular recipes. It seems okay, I'm just doubting myself lol.

Thanks again!

 

[Box of Rain]

Thanks, you two! So redoing a bit of math, this follows that a bit better:

Name	Cost	Cost / Unit	Amount Needed	Cost / Needed
Beef Trim	22.19 / 5lbs	4.44 / lb	1.5 lb (24 oz)	6.66
Pork Trim	17.49 / 5lbs	3.50 / lb	4.5 lbs (72 oz)	15.75
Pork Hearts	13.49 / 5lbs	2.70 / lb (0.17 / oz)	14 oz	2.38
Pork Liver	8.29 / 2lbs	4.15 / lb (0.25 / oz)	7 oz	1.75
Beef Kidney	7.99 / 2 lbs	4.00 / lb (0.25 / oz)	7 oz	1.75
Rabbit Skeleton*	4.99 / 4-6 lbs	1.00 / lb (0.06 / oz)	8 oz	0.36
MEAT TOTALS	81.43	x	132
Fish Oil	15.00 /240 softgels	0.06 / softgel	6 softgels	0.36
Vitamin E	14.88 / 100 capsules	0.15 / capsule	2 capsules	0.30
Vitamin B	11.93 / 100 capsules	0.12 / capsule	3 capsules	0.36
Taurine**	7.28 / 50 servings	0.15 / serving	1 serving	0.15
Morton Lite***	2.44 / 111 servings	0.02 / serving	3 servings	0.06
SUPP. TOTALS	$51.53	x	N/A	$1.23
TOTALS	$132.96	x	132 + N/A

Meat + Heart : (24 + 72 + 14) / 132 = 0.833
Liver: 7 / 132 = 0.053
Other Organ: 7 / 132 = 0.053
BONE: 8 / 132 = 0.061

Changing that bumps up the muscle meat percentage a bit, but I'm assuming it's okay to not be "Exactly" 80%, lol. But if so, I'll work that out later.
Other than that, do the supplement amounts look okay? That's honestly the part I'm struggling to understand the most. I haven't really found anything that says percentages (like the meat/bones/organ ratios) so I just kind of.... averaged three popular recipes. It seems okay, I'm just doubting myself lol.

Thanks again!

You are asking good questions. Much of the information about Prey Model ratios assumes one is feeding a dog, and that information often gets carried over to cats.

While the models are quite similar, cats have some differences with dogs.

One difference is that the prey of cats has a bone percentage that is less than that typical of dogs in the wild, and the anecdotal experiences of dog and cat owners regarding optimal bone percentages reflects the same differences when it comes to maintaining good GI tract functions. Too much bone can lead to both constipation and, in some cases, the paradoxical effect of causing diarrhea due to upset of the GI tract.

Adding to the meat percentage is fine. Adding a (little more) organ can have a mildly laxative effect on cats who are prone to constipation. None of this is an "exact science," but rather a general guideline that helps ensure a cat's nutritional need are met. There is a good deal of "wiggle room."

Bill

 

[kranek]

Adding to the meat percentage is fine. Adding a (little more) organ can have a mildly laxative effect on cats who are prone to constipation. None of this is an "exact science," but rather a general guideline that helps ensure a cat's nutritional need are met. There is a good deal of "wiggle room."

Thanks! I was pretty sure that was the case, but it doesn't hurt to check.

I also don't think my previous response was worded 100% clear. When I said "supplement amounts," I meant the Fish Oil/Vitamin E/B/Taurine/Lite Salt. Every recipe I read up on supplements differently, but they never exactly explain their reasoning for the exact amounts they use. I'm looking more for a guide that says something like "(insert mg amount) of supplement per (pound/ounce/whatever)." Like I said before, I averaged the three, but I'd prefer some more... actual numbers/math to check, ya know?
If you know anything like that, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks again!