FFCat/Kitten Intro - Will it ever happen?

[CatNaps]

Needing some help...

I have a lot of experience with cats but I have never had to intro cats before. Our old Tom Cat. (RIP) would accept any foster kitten you brought around immediately.

Situation:
Khali (spayed female) the Formally/Semi Feral. Started showing up at our house and after five months decided I was her person. That was a year ago. We are guessing her age to be 2 yrs as of Sept. Khali very polite cat and full of love. She is very vocal and demands attention.

9 weeks ago. We brought a 8 week old kitten home. Her name is Rhea now 17 weeks old. Of course we have been applying the introduction steps.

Rhea has the guest bedroom, door divided with the gate stays open all day long. They both eat at the gate but Khali keeps the boundary at two feet. Khali will hiss daily.

I have had Rhea out to play while Khali is perched up on the back of the sofa or cat tree. All goes well until Rhea gets 5 feet. Khali hisses and growls ears still up.

The other day, both on the floor and Rhea went under the table. Khali was 3 feet away and decided to jump at her, ears back, growling and swatted. Not sure if claws were out. Rescued Rhea and we took a few steps back.

Today, carrying Rhea in my arms and met Khali in the hall. We have done this lots of times. Today, Khali seen her and actually ran at me, she stopped in her tracks when I made our disapproval noise. Later ate at the gate no hissing and watched Rhea play out in the living room with one hissing moment from Khali. Rhea doesn't seemed bothered.

It's been 9 weeks. Shouldn't we be further along? I am cautious I will admit. Am I the one holding them back? At what point do you just sit back and don't react? I won't give up, but I am questioning if Khali will ever let her be.

 

[ArtNJ]

Well, with the charging and all you can't take this for granted, but adult cats essentially never hurt kittens of this age. The overwhelming probability is that the charge and swat was just to make the little one give her space. So one possibility is to leave them be and see if they can make progress. This is far from crazy; its normal for the cats to need to do some work at the end of an intro process. Generally, the bigger cat will calm down in time if the kitten is not trying to constantly jump on it. However, the charging is a somewhat less common element that your right to not be wild about. So it wouldn't be crazy to continue the process a little longer as well. There are people that have done longer than 9 weeks for sure.

All in all, it is a close call, but you can't run out of kittenhood. By six months and maybe sooner, a kitten starts getting perceived as an adult and the "adult cats dont attack kittens" thing goes away. So you have a closing window of uncertain size to let them try and work it out without the risk of injury. While some people on here have done intros of 3 months or longer, that just doesn't make any sense to me when one of the cats is a kitten -- you can't waste the kitten's grace period.

So I guess the question is whether there is really anything more you can do within the next week or two. Beyond that, you need to try and let them work it out. And if we don't think a week or two is going to make a difference, you may as well move to the let them work it out stage now. If there is no true fighting, let them do their thing. Hiss, growl, swat, none of that matters. Only fighting is a problem. Of course, given the age difference, fighting wont look like a two-sided affair. If the big one is pinning the kitten while still hissing and growling and pulling fur off the kitten or making the kitten *scream*, then that is a pretty serious failure that means you need to revisit the whole process. Not so different from how some big cats play with kittens. And some big cats will pin a kitten to teach it to give space. So its a kind of subtle difference. But if there is a ton of hostility/terror while its going on, those are clues that it could be a big problem. When its just unequal play or teaching, the kitten might squeal, and that does freak people out, but there wont be so much hostility and the kitten wont sound like he is being really hurt or is in true terror.

 

[rubysmama]

Hello and welcome to TCS. Thanks for rescuing Khali. And congrats on the new kitten. Honestly, what you've described doesn't sound too bad.

Hissing and growling is normal, as that is how cats communicate. Generally, as long as there's no blood, fur flying or one cat seeming scared, or stressed, things are probably proceeding well.

Is Khalli eating, sleeping, using the litter box normally? Does Rhea ever seem scared of Khalli? Or does she keep approaching her?

The running towards you, is a bit more worrisome.

TCS has some articles on cat introductions that might have some tips you haven't thought of yet. As well as some on aggression and stress. Here are the links:

How To Introduce A Kitten To An Older Cat | TheCatSite
How To Successfully Introduce Cats: The Ultimate Guide | TheCatSite
Introducing Cats To Cats | TheCatSite
How To Fix An Unsuccessful Cat Introduction | TheCatSite

Cat Aggression Toward People | TheCatSite
Why Do Cats Attack? | TheCatSite

Is Your Cat Stressed Out? | TheCatSite
You, Your Cat And Stress | TheCatSite
Potential Stressors In Cats - The Ultimate Checklist | TheCatSite
Six Surefire Strategies To Reduce Stress In Cats | TheCatSite

Good luck. Keep us posted on their progress. And post pics of them, if/when you can.
How To Add A Picture To Your Forum Post | TheCatSite

 

[CatNaps]

Is Khalli eating, sleeping, using the litter box normally? Does Rhea ever seem scared of Khalli? Or does she keep approaching her?

The running towards you, is a bit more worrisome.

Khali is acting normal otherwise. Still eating, using box, playing, sleeping in my bed. She was getting mad at me everytime I moved the dish closer to the door. But now close as we can get.

Thank you for all the article links. I'll have a read through and see what else I can do.

 

[CatNaps]

Well, with the charging and all you can't take this for granted, but adult cats essentially never hurt kittens of this age. The overwhelming probability is that the charge and swat was just to make the little one give her space. So one possibility is to leave them be and see if they can make progress.

By six months and maybe sooner, a kitten starts getting perceived as an adult and the "adult cats dont attack kittens" thing goes away.

Kitten window is definitely closing in now. Going to try the "see what happens thing again" and record it so I can evaluate after also. Rhea isn't scared and wants to play with khali, she will bow down, doesn't try to jump Khali at all.

 

[ArtNJ]

Kitten window is definitely closing in now. Going to try the "see what happens thing again" and record it so I can evaluate after also. Rhea isn't scared and wants to play with khali, she will bow down, doesn't try to jump Khali at all.

Sounds logical. Just remember, growling hissing and swatting is ok, and straddling/biting the neck might be, even if the kitten squeals a little. Improvement takes significant time together, but if the kitten stays chill, you should definitely see the older cat calm down a good bit, at the least.

Recording is a good idea also, so you can show us if needed. Normal play or setting of limits can really freak some folks out that haven't seen it before. It just seems wrong when a big cat is biting a little one's neck and they squeal.

 

[CatNaps]

Well... We have had lots of hissing and growls. I always give a disapproval "eh eh". Khali always stops and goes back to chill mode when I make this sound. Telling you, she is actually very polite and listens like a dog.

First playtime this afternoon was good. Khali just watched and we ended on a no hissy note.

Our second playtime tonight was a little tense but funny. Khali was on the floor. Brought Rhea out and set her on the other side of the room and started with the laser light. Khali was not feeling it and took the higher ground to the sofa and later to the side table. Rhea bolts down the steps (dead end cause door is closed at bottom) and that got kahli's attention. Told Khali to stay, she did until she heard scratching in her box. Down she bolted to the top of steps. I ran through the other hall and beat her to the top step. Khali stayed at the top and Rhea starts bolting up. They met at the top step. Khali roars her ferocious wild cat growl, ears flat back and swatted no claws. Rhea took a bow. Let this be for about a minute then told Khali to stay while I tapped Rhea with the toy wand. Rhea bolted and Khali stayed.

So, I'm thinking Khali is still scared and a little territorial over her box. If she truly wanted to be aggressive and hate Rhea that was her moment. Yes??

 

[rubysmama]

Sounds like all 3 of you are getting lots of exercise! But swatting sans claws, is good.

About litter boxes, how many do you have?

 

[CatNaps]

Sounds like all 3 of you are getting lots of exercise! But swatting sans claws, is good.

About litter boxes, how many do you have?

Have three right now. One down stairs for Khali, one in the guest room for Rhea and one in the mud/laundry room. I have a fourth one on stand by that I planned on placing down stairs once we open that door.

 

[rubysmama]

Have three right now. One down stairs for Khali, one in the guest room for Rhea and one in the mud/laundry room. I have a fourth one on stand by that I planned on placing down stairs once we open that door.

Sounds like you've got litter boxes covered. How've the kitties been the last couple day?

 

[CatNaps]

Sounds like you've got litter boxes covered. How've the kitties been the last couple day?

Thank you so much for asking

For the very first time in 9 weeks Khali finally decided she wanted to play at the same time instead of just watching little Rhea play. There was a lot of hissing and growling and Rhea got swatted at. She always stops her attitude for that moment when we ask her to.

Have a questions though...

Should we be correcting Khali? Or does her attitude need to play out to get her over her fear?

 

[rubysmama]

Some swatting and hissing is to be expected from the older cat, as she will be trying to teach little Rhea kitty manners. As long as it's not too rough, and that there's no blood or fur flying, and if Rhea keeps going back to Khali for more "fun", all is likely well.

I found this video, you might find helpful, particularly the comments, which all agree the older cat is just teaching the kitten who's boss.

 

[CatNaps]

Ok so this is where we are... Today a video. 2nd time Khakis claws were out and ears back. Only when they are this close she acts this way, except if I'm holding the kitten. Took some videos. Linked below.

Playtime got tense:
Gate eating:

 

[ArtNJ]

That seems like its going fine to me. I've got an intro going between a 10 week old and a 3 yr old cat right now myself. Maybe I'm having a very slightly easier time since my older cat has never swatted and I got to play in the same room quicker, but you are doing quite well. Elevated space is known to help, but even with elevation, your cat looked pretty calm while the kitten was looking at him with play in his eyes from a close distance.

 

[rubysmama]

That didn't look bad to me either. And the kitten definitely didn't look scared.

 

[di and bob]

Yes, as long as teh kitten doesn't actively hide from her and avoids her in teh same room, everything is normal. It is very common for females to discilpline kittens. Even when they are grown. As long as there is no actual blood drawn, let it play out. It always looks a lot worse then it is. I have been horrified at watching my ferals discipline, but there is actually no real harm done. Kittens need this to learn to play nice and to become socially acceptable, especially when there are no siblings to teach them by fighting back.