Feral is being TOO friendly.

piano cat

TCS Member
Thread starter
Alpha Cat
Joined
Feb 18, 2016
Messages
316
Purraise
218
What a problem. I will try to make it short. Tuffy has been around for 7 years, the last 3 years right in our yard full time since his abandonned building home down the road was torn down. I did TNR on him last summer. Since then he has gotten more and more comfortable with us, especially me, and now he wants to be MY cat. I can pet him and brush him but I'm careful and Tuffy stays outside. WE put Tuffy's age at 8 years, TNR Vet agrees.

Joe showed up after Tuffy, was likely a barn cat or maybe even pet, dumped. Joe decided he wanted to be MY cat too. Five years ago Joe literally pushed his way into the house and he comes in every night now. He still wants out during the day and is miserable if he can't be out. Joe for sure is 6 years old.

Tuffy is trying to replace Joe. Joe is not a fighter. Tuffy stalks Joe and chases him away. I have tried treating in each other's company to show Tuffy that good things happen when Joe is here but Tuffy resource guards his food and this is not working. Nor is simple petting and attention. IN fact both petting and feeding seem to make Tuffy worse.

I am afraid Joe will leave if Tuffy continues to threaten him. The friendlier Tuffy gets with me the more he seems to keep Joe away. Tuffy is often so close to the back door when I go outside I wonder if he may try to come inside. I have inside only cats too, Tuffy cannot come in. Tuffy comes on the run when I call him. Joe is starting to avoid me for fear Tuffy might jump him.

I have contacted some local feral cat and rescue cat people who have no ideas and really were not any help. I thought neutering Tuffy would help the antagonism between Tuff and Joe but it has not. So here I am, asking if anyone has some ideas I could try. Tuffy is not a re-home candidate, he is still feral and I could not in good conscience let him go to someone.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3

piano cat

TCS Member
Thread starter
Alpha Cat
Joined
Feb 18, 2016
Messages
316
Purraise
218
Thanks, a catio would be nice, especially for the inside only cats. I rather doubt one would satisfy Joe, who came from the big wide world outside at one year old. Even if we could find lumber, there is a big lumber shortage now due to Covid, it would take some planning and time to build. Where I would like it, a logical place for it, would decimate this year's crop of milkweed and I don't want to do that till all the monarchs have migrated.
 

frajude

TCS Member
Young Cat
Joined
Oct 19, 2015
Messages
72
Purraise
12
Cats are territorial so Tuffy feels like Joe is invading her yard. I had two feral cats several years ago and Lulu eventually drove off Missy.
Lulu is still there. Is there any way that you could divide the yard so that Joe has and area and Tuffy has an area and both have a common area. Have you tried calling " Alley Cat Allies for advice".(240) 482-1980
 

Furballsmom

Cat Devotee
Staff Member
Forum Helper
Joined
Jan 9, 2018
Messages
39,270
Purraise
53,927
Location
Colorado US
I rather doubt one would satisfy Joe, who came from the big wide world outside at one year old.
He'll adapt, for sure. It's lovely you're thinking of the butterflies :)
What about purchasing a big walk-in cage to start with - I'm serious, Joe will be ok with this, he will accommodate it. On the other hand I'm getting the impression you don't have a lot of time to work with before Joe decides he can't deal with the other cat.
 
Last edited:

di and bob

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
16,582
Purraise
22,950
Location
Nebraska, USA
I have a feral right now in a large catico, or catuary as we call it, and am really thinking of keeping him there since we moved out to the country and found out how many coyotes are around. It is 18x40 feet and has electricity for heated cat beds this winter. He even has a young feral cat showing up as a friend!
Joe will eventually be run off, I have had it happen many times. You think he likes to be 'free' right now, but the dangers are so great out there, especially if he gets run off repeatedly and is in strange territory. The chances of him getting killed are great if he doesn't get protection or help. Don't blame Tuffy, he is just being a cat and territorial, I really doubt you can change him, especially since it has been 5 years. Joe sounds more like a stray and needs the security of being protected.
You might advertise on Facebook about someone having some lumber they don't need right now, you'd be surprised how many people have some. Some farmer may even have rolls of wire fencing. You might find enough good stuff to build a decent catico. We put lattice on the top of ours. We built ours in two sections, walling off the middle until we could get to the second part, we were just too busy with remodeling the house. Where there is a will, there is a way!
 

Talien

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Oct 10, 2018
Messages
2,650
Purraise
5,131
Location
Michigan
Thanks, a catio would be nice, especially for the inside only cats. I rather doubt one would satisfy Joe, who came from the big wide world outside at one year old. Even if we could find lumber, there is a big lumber shortage now due to Covid, it would take some planning and time to build. Where I would like it, a logical place for it, would decimate this year's crop of milkweed and I don't want to do that till all the monarchs have migrated.
Can you buy a Dog pen or make an enclosure yourself out of sections of fence? It's not ideal, but it would work as a temporary measure until lumber is more accessible. That would also have a minimal impact on the Milkweed since they would still get sun and rain, and Monarchs would be able to fit through the holes in the fence.
 

maggie101

3 cats
Top Cat
Joined
Apr 20, 2014
Messages
7,883
Purraise
9,879
Location
Houston,TX
What a problem. I will try to make it short. Tuffy has been around for 7 years, the last 3 years right in our yard full time since his abandonned building home down the road was torn down. I did TNR on him last summer. Since then he has gotten more and more comfortable with us, especially me, and now he wants to be MY cat. I can pet him and brush him but I'm careful and Tuffy stays outside. WE put Tuffy's age at 8 years, TNR Vet agrees.

Joe showed up after Tuffy, was likely a barn cat or maybe even pet, dumped. Joe decided he wanted to be MY cat too. Five years ago Joe literally pushed his way into the house and he comes in every night now. He still wants out during the day and is miserable if he can't be out. Joe for sure is 6 years old.

Tuffy is trying to replace Joe. Joe is not a fighter. Tuffy stalks Joe and chases him away. I have tried treating in each other's company to show Tuffy that good things happen when Joe is here but Tuffy resource guards his food and this is not working. Nor is simple petting and attention. IN fact both petting and feeding seem to make Tuffy worse.

I am afraid Joe will leave if Tuffy continues to threaten him. The friendlier Tuffy gets with me the more he seems to keep Joe away. Tuffy is often so close to the back door when I go outside I wonder if he may try to come inside. I have inside only cats too, Tuffy cannot come in. Tuffy comes on the run when I call him. Joe is starting to avoid me for fear Tuffy might jump him.

I have contacted some local feral cat and rescue cat people who have no ideas and really were not any help. I thought neutering Tuffy would help the antagonism between Tuff and Joe but it has not. So here I am, asking if anyone has some ideas I could try. Tuffy is not a re-home candidate, he is still feral and I could not in good conscience let him go to someone.
You can buy the equipment for a catio. That would be cool!
 

tarasgirl06

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Messages
24,708
Purraise
64,891
Location
Glendale, CATifornia
Best Friends Animal Society (bestfriends.org) has a magazine and in the back are classifieds, including ads for prefab structures you can order. You can also look at catioshowcase.com for lots of ideas for catios large and small. freecycle.com may yield materials. The various buy and sell websites may, as well.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #10

piano cat

TCS Member
Thread starter
Alpha Cat
Joined
Feb 18, 2016
Messages
316
Purraise
218
Thanks all. I will run some more catio ideas by the OH, who will build the catio.

I have to say, having Tuffy come to me now and demand pets is a thrill. We actually think he is the likely father of our inside girls. One looks so much like him and the timing is right. They were found in an outside house we built. We had live trapped the mother, who turned out to have been a pet and is just the most lovely cat.
 

Mia6

Mother of one and numerous ferals
Top Cat
Joined
Jan 22, 2017
Messages
31,105
Purraise
34,061
Location
Ohio, USA
What you are doing is so kind and loving. You've been given wonderful suggestions.
Have you perhaps thought of 2 Igloos? Nicole bought one when a neighbors's cat
had 6 kittens but they would not let them in their garage during freezing temps, evil.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #12

piano cat

TCS Member
Thread starter
Alpha Cat
Joined
Feb 18, 2016
Messages
316
Purraise
218
Thanks Mia. My OH has built good warm houses for the cats outside. The first feral/stray/dumpee spends the cold winter nights in our garage where there are more nice, warm places for her to cosy up. Tuffy will not go in the garage but he has good places outside.
 

moxiewild

Seniors, Special Needs, Ferals, and Wildlife
Super Cat
Joined
Aug 4, 2014
Messages
1,112
Purraise
1,520
Maybe I missed it, but is Joe also neutered?

Can I ask why Tuffy is not welcome indoors? You said it’s because your cats are indoor only, but Joe is indoor/outdoor it sounds like, so I’m a bit confused. Am I misunderstanding something there?

In addition to the enclosure solutions, here are some other recommendations -

- Bring Tuffy inside, if at all possible, and work on introductions indoors.

- Keep Joe inside. This is likely the most simple solution. It may sound daunting, but users on this forum can help advise you through the process. Many of us have ferals that had been outside for 3-5+ years and still didn’t even like humans (or us) at the time we brought them indoors, and they’re happy as clams now!

Getting Joe to adjust to indoor life will be significantly easier than getting two cats to like one another, trust me.

- Rehome Joe. It sounds as though he is friendly and socialized, and since Tuffy isn’t a good candidate for adoption, then maybe Joe is.

- Continue and increase routine, structured introductions between them outside. This is a long shot, but it isn’t likely to hurt.

Have them on scheduled feeding, and each time they eat, ensure it is outdoors with you and with each other.

If they usually eat dry, switch to some wet food they really love. If they already eat wet, then switch to something more appetizing or “junk food” for a bit (if they like fish but don’t normally eat it, then offer fish flavors, for instance. Fancy feast is usually well loved by cats in all sorts of flavors too).

Alternatively (and especially if anyone has a sensitive stomach), you could simply use an extra special food topper like bonito flakes, fortiflira, purebites chicken treats crumbled up, etc. on top of their regular food.

Do separate treat sessions like you’ve been doing in between meals.

Try playing with them together (preferably someone will help you with this so there is a person/toy for each cat). Again, ideally on a schedule. Da Bird is a great toy for this sort of thing.

Ensure there are enough resources outside for them. Use the “one per cat + one more” litterbox rule, but for everything - like shelters (if possible) and water. Don’t place them near each other either.

Even if Joe doesn’t really need a shelter because he knows he can just come inside, Tuffy doesn’t understand that. There is less reason for tension if Tuffy feels that resources are plentiful.

That said, I think it’s possible that Tuffy does understand to some extent that Joe has access to more resources than he does (the house and you), and this could be contributing to the behavior.

Cats typically don’t like closed doors or when they aren’t allowed somewhere. And on some level, they sense when things are “unfair” between themselves and other cats, which can lead to dominance issues and resources guarding as a means to compensate for the imbalance and for the insecurity they feel over it.

And if that’s what’s going on, there may not be much you can do. It is certainly likely that Tuffy will eventually run off Joe if this dynamic continues.

Out of all of these options (plus the enclosure option), getting Joe to adjust to life indoors will be significantly easier, I assure you!
 

tarasgirl06

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Messages
24,708
Purraise
64,891
Location
Glendale, CATifornia
Maybe I missed it, but is Joe also neutered?

Can I ask why Tuffy is not welcome indoors? You said it’s because your cats are indoor only, but Joe is indoor/outdoor it sounds like, so I’m a bit confused. Am I misunderstanding something there?

In addition to the enclosure solutions, here are some other recommendations -

- Bring Tuffy inside, if at all possible, and work on introductions indoors.

- Keep Joe inside. This is likely the most simple solution. It may sound daunting, but users on this forum can help advise you through the process. Many of us have ferals that had been outside for 3-5+ years and still didn’t even like humans (or us) at the time we brought them indoors, and they’re happy as clams now!

Getting Joe to adjust to indoor life will be significantly easier than getting two cats to like one another, trust me.

- Rehome Joe. It sounds as though he is friendly and socialized, and since Tuffy isn’t a good candidate for adoption, then maybe Joe is.

- Continue and increase routine, structured introductions between them outside. This is a long shot, but it isn’t likely to hurt.

Have them on scheduled feeding, and each time they eat, ensure it is outdoors with you and with each other.

If they usually eat dry, switch to some wet food they really love. If they already eat wet, then switch to something more appetizing or “junk food” for a bit (if they like fish but don’t normally eat it, then offer fish flavors, for instance. Fancy feast is usually well loved by cats in all sorts of flavors too).

Alternatively (and especially if anyone has a sensitive stomach), you could simply use an extra special food topper like bonito flakes, fortiflira, purebites chicken treats crumbled up, etc. on top of their regular food.

Do separate treat sessions like you’ve been doing in between meals.

Try playing with them together (preferably someone will help you with this so there is a person/toy for each cat). Again, ideally on a schedule. Da Bird is a great toy for this sort of thing.

Ensure there are enough resources outside for them. Use the “one per cat + one more” litterbox rule, but for everything - like shelters (if possible) and water. Don’t place them near each other either.

Even if Joe doesn’t really need a shelter because he knows he can just come inside, Tuffy doesn’t understand that. There is less reason for tension if Tuffy feels that resources are plentiful.

That said, I think it’s possible that Tuffy does understand to some extent that Joe has access to more resources than he does (the house and you), and this could be contributing to the behavior.

Cats typically don’t like closed doors or when they aren’t allowed somewhere. And on some level, they sense when things are “unfair” between themselves and other cats, which can lead to dominance issues and resources guarding as a means to compensate for the imbalance and for the insecurity they feel over it.

And if that’s what’s going on, there may not be much you can do. It is certainly likely that Tuffy will eventually run off Joe if this dynamic continues.

Out of all of these options (plus the enclosure option), getting Joe to adjust to life indoors will be significantly easier, I assure you!
EXCELLENT suggestions all, moxiewild moxiewild and huge props to you for caring about and for "senior, special needs, and feral" cats!
 

tarasgirl06

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Messages
24,708
Purraise
64,891
Location
Glendale, CATifornia
The little guy in my avatar (and his feral friend the shelter killed 😡) are to thank for that!
They grab us around the heart and don't let go, right? I work in advocacy every day, so I see far, far too much of the above. And then I get up each day and do my little bit to help those still here as much as I can.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #17

piano cat

TCS Member
Thread starter
Alpha Cat
Joined
Feb 18, 2016
Messages
316
Purraise
218
Thanks all. Sorry to not update sooner. Inside the house is full. There is no place for me to keep another cat contained and safe from the current residents. And vice versa.

Yes, Joe is neutered. He is my baby, I am not re-homing Joe. Joe pushed his way inside to be with me and the dog. LOL. He loved the dog first.

Joe and Tuffy seem to have learned to stay away from each other. Tuffy is not as aggressively challenging Joe as he was. It is colder now and dark earlier and Joe is inside more, but the inside girls give him a hard time.

Tuffy is quite endearing and I wish he could come in. I have held the door open for him but he is afraid. He has become very affectionate outside, runs to us for pets as soon as we go out. Sits on my lap and purrs and cuddles and has to be tricked to get down. It's funny, and can hurt a bit, but Tuffy seems to think he can sit on my lap while I'm standing up. He does not know to not use his hooks and he sticks them in my leg as if he is going to climb up me. This is one reason I cannot home him, he does not know how to behave with people. I have learned to lightly stamp my foot to dissuade him from these attempts he makes to climb up my leg. When I do he moves away but it does not frighten him and he will come right back so I have to move on my way quickly. Another thing he does is grab our hands when we stop petting and he still wants more pets. I know to let him have my hand and I have never been scratched. I use my other hand to distract him so I can remove the petting hand. Sometimes he puts my hand in his mouth, sometimes I think he gives me love bites and sometimes I think he gives me a warning. This is how I learned he has lost all his canines. He has no long teeth.
 

tarasgirl06

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Messages
24,708
Purraise
64,891
Location
Glendale, CATifornia
Thanks all. Sorry to not update sooner. Inside the house is full. There is no place for me to keep another cat contained and safe from the current residents. And vice versa.

Yes, Joe is neutered. He is my baby, I am not re-homing Joe. Joe pushed his way inside to be with me and the dog. LOL. He loved the dog first.

Joe and Tuffy seem to have learned to stay away from each other. Tuffy is not as aggressively challenging Joe as he was. It is colder now and dark earlier and Joe is inside more, but the inside girls give him a hard time.

Tuffy is quite endearing and I wish he could come in. I have held the door open for him but he is afraid. He has become very affectionate outside, runs to us for pets as soon as we go out. Sits on my lap and purrs and cuddles and has to be tricked to get down. It's funny, and can hurt a bit, but Tuffy seems to think he can sit on my lap while I'm standing up. He does not know to not use his hooks and he sticks them in my leg as if he is going to climb up me. This is one reason I cannot home him, he does not know how to behave with people. I have learned to lightly stamp my foot to dissuade him from these attempts he makes to climb up my leg. When I do he moves away but it does not frighten him and he will come right back so I have to move on my way quickly. Another thing he does is grab our hands when we stop petting and he still wants more pets. I know to let him have my hand and I have never been scratched. I use my other hand to distract him so I can remove the petting hand. Sometimes he puts my hand in his mouth, sometimes I think he gives me love bites and sometimes I think he gives me a warning. This is how I learned he has lost all his canines. He has no long teeth.
My mom's Siamese man used to climb her while she was standing at the counter doing dishes. He'd climb all the way up her back to her shoulder. He was a large full-sized adult then.
My Baby Su can't stand Elvis, who joined us four years ago. They spend a lot of time in the same room. Sometimes he chases her, but only if she runs from him. I have to run interference between them at times; I have a spray bottle handy on the night table for when Elvis is zeroed in on her and won't be distracted. Of course I wish they would have a detente or better still, become friends so they could curl up together. If that happens, so much the better but if not, life is like this. It's not perfect, but we're family and family is for life here.
Experts say never to play with cats with hands, as cats will then associate hands with prey (or toys, which are surrogate prey). Using interactive wand-and-lure toys such as Cat Dancer or da Bird will distract a cat from preying upon hands, so avoiding hands becoming handburger.:gaah:
 

Jcatbird

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Dec 5, 2017
Messages
10,301
Purraise
58,378
Location
United States
Awww. I have had kitties climb me too. Maybe Tuffy just doesn’t want to be away from loving arms. I hope he comes in soon. He might be hitching a ride on your leg! What we used to do with climbing kitties was to put on a long bathrobe over jeans when we went around them. It’s a lot harder to climb than jeans or pants and they were discouraged from climbing as much. Tuffy may still go under though. We had that most often with kittens or scared kitties that wanted to security of being held. Kitties are so smart.
 
Top