Early kitten care by rough person & future behavior?

[auntarctica]

We are looking to adopt a kitten and met them. The owners brought them all into the living room The 2 girls (9.5 weeks old) were scared and ran off, the boys which are 2 weeks older stayed and played (12 weeks old). None liked handling or would tolerate being held. We cajoled the girls out eventually. They played a little, but were clearly afraid of the room, and were smaller than the boys so were nervous. The owner is a bigger gruff guy who grabbed them by the scruff of the neck and just had a real matter-of-fact kind of disposition. Not really sensitive to the fear of the girls. Not gentle. So, are these kittens going to grow up not liking people? Distrusting people and being aloof? The owners want to keep them until they are 14-16 weeks, which is nearly the end of the socialization period. Girls also both had soft stools. Very frustrated and disappointed. Not sure what to do. We appreciate the help.

 

[Jcatbird]

With your love and care they can adjust. Socialization does not ever really end. I work with rescues and mostly ferals but also some kitties that were severely abused. Of course, the earlier you can get them, the better for everyone but you can guide them through fear or distrust. Please do rescue them. Any or all. It sounds like he has given them enough care to semi socialize them so that’s a start. Most kittens do have some form of worms at an early age that can come from the mother so soft stool is not uncommon. Any kitten you get from anywhere will need a vet check so they can be checked for worms along with a normal wellness visit.
I hope you do adopt from there. Many of us here will be happy to help you work through any fear or nervousness the kitten or kittens have. Adopting two kittens could be very helpful since they can act as support for each other as well as playmates.
Just plan on having a quiet spot for the kitten to start out. A carrier or box inside a small bathroom would work well as they get used to you. If they aren’t too scared, cuddling in the bed is often comforting to them too. There are lots of things that can help them to adjust and I have found that kitties from situations like that, once they trust you, become the most appreciative and closest of kitties. Please post back if you have any specific questions and also, please let us know how things go.

 

[She's a witch]

Are they backyard breeders, reputable breeders or fosters? I’d avoid backyard breeders at all costs, if you’re paying big money to them it only encourages them to treat cats as business and not care for them properly. However it seems great that they want to keep them until they’re 14-16 weeks, kittens shouldn’t be separated from their mom and siblings earlier than that.

 

[Jcatbird]

She's a witch Is right that getting them before they are ready to leave Mom is detrimental. When I stated that you should get them as early as possible, I should have said that you should remove them from rough handling and do not mean that 14 - 16 weeks is an improper age to let them go from the mother. Ideally, they need to be ready to leave the family and correctly weaned.

 

[She's a witch]

I actually don’t really know what to think about this. Because it seems they do somewhat care about kittens’ wellbeing if they want to keep them till they are big enough. If they wanted to make money only, they’d want to get rid of them ASAP. And some things described can be explained (if they are rarely in that room it’s understandable they could be afraid; some even greatly socialized cats don’t like being held by strangers). Even not being sensitive to the fear of the kittens- I sometimes do this to my cats, I pretend that my cat is not afraid and I act normal around him and it actually helps him to overcome this. But the lack of being gentle and scruffing is alarming. I’d hope the second owner would at least be gentle?
I guess it might be a bad place, but it might as well not be a bad place. It sort of depends what is the situation is, if they’re fostering or selling the kitties. If they’re breeders, I’d research about them as much as possible.

 

[ArtNJ]

I'm not sure if you are picking up on some legit danger signals or if you are reading tea leaves, but there are tons of kittens available and if you got a bad feel, why chance it? Someone will take those kittens. It doesn't need to be you. Not remotely being critical here, but adopting a kitten is NOT saving a life, because someone always takes kittens. So it just doesn't matter -- pick kittens that speak to you, that you are comfortable with. That can include not adopting from a cramped cut-rate shelter that smells like urine, or an owner that you are unsure about. Its not worth agonizing over unless you fell in love with these kittens -- just find some others that give a better feel.

I've adopted kittens from 10 weeks to 16-18 weeks, and never found it to make too much difference in the long run. That said, I have found that kittens rescued from the street take a little more effort to build a bond with. A properly handled and loved home raised kitten is probably easier, at least on average, and for a first time owner, every edge is a good thing. But I don't know it makes any difference in the long run if you put the work in.

 

[lucicat]

If they aren't used to being in the living room that could be why they reacted like that.

We got our second kitten from a foster mom who was the sweetest and even bottle fed the little ones (to supplement mom's milk, he had mom and siblings with him too).. .so I know he had a really stable and gentle home. But they were used to her kitten room and when she brought them to other rooms some would jump out and explore and others would hang back or hide. . .totally just personality. Our guy was one who would hang back or hide and he's still like that in new situations. But he's been a great kitten. . .helps that we had an older very confident kitten. But he'll still hide at strange noises or if a stranger comes to our house, unlike our older kitten (who I think had a much more fraught/unstable start in life). So a lot of it could just be inherent personality. . .and they might really bloom with an owner that gets that and can draw them out gently.

 

[lucicat]

But if you get a bad vibe then don't do it. Lots of kitties to rescue!!

 

[nwc]

I'm not sure if you are picking up on some legit danger signals or if you are reading tea leaves,

Is "reading tea leaves" supposed to be a nice way to describe the act of making prejudiced judgements based on appearance?

 

[ArtNJ]

Is "reading tea leaves" supposed to be a nice way to describe the act of making prejudiced judgements based on appearance?

No. Its a saying used in the US that equates to trying to predict the future using small non-probative signs. Read the Tea Leaves - English Idioms & Slang Dictionary Maybe your part of the PC police and trying to say the saying is no longer ok because it has some ethnic origin. If so, file a report with citations for the circular file.

I don't take "big and gruff" to be a prejudiced judgment. They weren't comfortable with the way he didn't seem to give a hoot about the kitten's stress. Maybe that is just a very experienced owner being businesslike, or maybe its something more. I have no idea. My point was, it doesn't really matter. There are a lot of kittens out there. Find ones you are in love with. Why not?

I'm also not sure whether you were trying to be critical of me or them, but either way hiss, growl, swat. Take that.

 

[auntarctica]

With your love and care they can adjust. Socialization does not ever really end. I work with rescues and mostly ferals but also some kitties that were severely abused. Of course, the earlier you can get them, the better for everyone but you can guide them through fear or distrust. Please do rescue them. Any or all. It sounds like he has given them enough care to semi socialize them so that’s a start. Most kittens do have some form of worms at an early age that can come from the mother so soft stool is not uncommon. Any kitten you get from anywhere will need a vet check so they can be checked for worms along with a normal wellness visit.
I hope you do adopt from there. Many of us here will be happy to help you work through any fear or nervousness the kitten or kittens have. Adopting two kittens could be very helpful since they can act as support for each other as well as playmates.
Just plan on having a quiet spot for the kitten to start out. A carrier or box inside a small bathroom would work well as they get used to you. If they aren’t too scared, cuddling in the bed is often comforting to them too. There are lots of things that can help them to adjust and I have found that kitties from situations like that, once they trust you, become the most appreciative and closest of kitties. Please post back if you have any specific questions and also, please let us know how things go.

Thank you for the confidence. He does not want to adopt them out until 4 months (16 weeks), forgot to mention that. I have tried to talk him into giving them up earlier but he's convinced he's "socializing" them by having the tv on full blast, and man handling them. Its super sad. I just don't want aloof cats. He refuses to worm them as he thinks its poison. He's a nutcase.

 

[PushPurrCatPaws]

Thank you for the confidence. He does not want to adopt them out until 4 months (16 weeks), forgot to mention that. I have tried to talk him into giving them up earlier but he's convinced he's "socializing" them by having the tv on full blast, and man handling them. Its super sad. I just don't want aloof cats. He refuses to worm them as he thinks its poison. He's a nutcase.

Are you thinking you might want to take the female kittens? Is there any way you can keep trying to convince this guy that: 'they can also get socialized quite well by you, thank you, even (and especially so) if you take them at 11-12 weeks'? That, in the long run, it would be awesome for the kittens if they had those extra weeks of time to get used to you, your house, your household, your mannerisms and your ways of handling and feeding and playing with them? You will be their forever home after all, his home is not their forever home.

 

[auntarctica]

Sorry, that wasn't fair saying he's a nutcase. Yes, he cares enough to keep until fully weaned and to him "socialized." Thanks for all the great comments and advice, I really appreciate it. I agree there's a lot of cats to be rescued. One kittens ribs you can feel and she has the round belly that feels like worms. The other just soft stools. I did fall for them, specially the little one but now he's keeping her cause he's worried about her health (put her on amoxicillan not wormer, so really really not sure about that). None of his other cats are friendly, the mom is not. But maybe mom cats just are not friendly. But doesn't the parents temperaments pass down? And the kittens learn from their moms how to be with people? He's asked for a rehoming fee, but I am ok with that, its seems like the right thing. Can kittens from unfriendly moms and people turn out to be affectionate is the key here. Thanks a bunch for all the support.

 

[PushPurrCatPaws]

... But doesn't the parents temperaments pass down? And the kittens learn from their moms how to be with people?

Personally, I feel the kittens learn from people how to be with people... that's why you are important in this case. Getting them early, when socialization can still be "fresh" for them, is a good idea, in my view.

I have a kitten that was taken from her mom at four days old, but raised by very kind human foster "moms" during early kittenhood. I adopted her around 11.5 weeks old. She was very comfy with humans, as she only got love, food and kindness. Yet some of how they will interact with humans later can also be just their own personality or experiences. You can still have outgoing kittens that felt loved and "safe" as kittens, yet still are shy at times in young adulthood or adulthood if they become unused to "a constant traffic flow" of human visitors in a household in later life. They just are used to having a few daily interactions with their favorite humans, and not used to a huge variety of visitors coming in the front door. Just because a kitty hides under a bed for a half hour when you have holiday guests or something doesn't have to mean that your life with them won't be enriching and loving and fun, too.

 

[Jcatbird]

The guy may have ideas that differ but as long as he is not harming the kittens then it may be okay. Many people don’t see kittens as we might. From what you say he has them semi socialized which is a start. There may be more good going on than a sort of macho man would want to admit. A lot of guys don’t feel having kittens is masculine. Perhaps they even get teased. Some people do think that , unless medicine is totally required, it can be harmful. Some people worry about immunizations too. At 16 weeks that kittens can still become social. I have examples of kitties older than that in my lap as I type. Personally, I always try to adopt those I feel most need a home. I’ve never gotten a kitty that was anything but great. Every cat is different no matter how they are raised. The most frightened baby may be the bravest later. The cuddle bug may want to do nothing but run and play later. Much will depend on what you do when they are established in your home. The kittens can be wormed when you get them and they need a vet check , Spay/neuter anyway. I suggest you check in again and see how the kittens develop. They may get braver as they get older and try to keep in mind that gruff does not necessariky equal cruel. Not everyone is warm and fuzzy. If you can provide the optimum home for one or more of these kittens then they will be given a great life.

 

[She's a witch]

I agree that kittens learn from people how to be with people, but also they learn from themselves what hurts, how to bite, how to play, what is acceptable etc. if they are separated from mom / siblings too early, they may bite excessively, attacks ankles etc and that’s difficult to correct by humans. Especially if someone wants to adopt only one kitten, which imo is wrong in the first place, it’s super important they’ve been with the family long enough. No one wants a kitten that bites.
Delayed weaning reduces behavioural problems in cats
Single-Kitten Syndrome - MEOW Cat Rescue

 

[PushPurrCatPaws]

I agree that kittens learn from people how to be with people, but also they learn from themselves what hurts, how to bite, how to play, what is acceptable etc. if they are separated from mom / siblings too early, they may bite excessively, attacks ankles etc and that’s difficult to correct by humans. Especially if someone wants to adopt only one kitten, which imo is wrong in the first place, it’s super important they’ve been with the family long enough. No one wants a kitten that bites.
Delayed weaning reduces behavioural problems in cats
Single-Kitten Syndrome - MEOW Cat Rescue

I agree with you, but... I guess we'd need to discover if the mama cat is just a baby-making machine in this household, with little energy to teach manners and socialization to her kittens, or if it's a 'good' cat mama.

I was going from the angle that the mama cat is overworked, undersocialized herself, and perhaps not a good cat mama. See OP's partial comment below...

...
None of his other cats are friendly, the mom is not. But maybe mom cats just are not friendly. But doesn't the parents temperaments pass down? And the kittens learn from their moms how to be with people?

To me, the forever-home-human can really help out a kitten in this case.

Yes, as you say, "no one wants a kitten that bites" but an awful lot of that type of kitten behavior takes consistency and attention of a good human owner. My kitty took some training, time and understanding, but she's good-to-go now. What took my kitty so long was the humans in our household were not on the same page with discouraging biting... I knew where it could lead long-term, while my husband thought it was not a big deal. Everyone now is on the same page in our house, and Milly is "normal" and we all are happy.

(I have to get offline for a bit ... weird possible thunderstorm/ rain starting here! )

 

[She's a witch]

I agree with you, but... I guess we'd need to discover if the mama cat is just a baby-making machine in this household, with little energy to teach manners and socialization to her kittens, or if it's a 'good' cat mama.

I was going from the angle that the mama cat is overworked, undersocialized herself, and perhaps not a good cat mama. See OP's partial comment below...




To me, the forever-home-human can really help out a kitten in this case.

Yes, as you say, "no one wants a kitten that bites" but an awful lot of that type of kitten behavior takes consistency and attention of a good human owner. My kitty took some training, time and understanding, but she's good-to-go now. What took my kitty so long was the humans in our household were not on the same page with discouraging biting... I knew where it could lead long-term, while my husband thought it was not a big deal. Everyone now is on the same page in our house, and Milly is "normal" and we all are happy.

(I have to get offline for a bit ... weird possible thunderstorm/ rain starting here! )

I guess I personally value more the time the kittens spend with their own cat family, than time they spend with humans in the critical period of their development.. of course, in the ideal world they’d have both. Most kittens are separated too early and that’s why whenever there is a chance that a kitten can indeed stay as long as it’s needed, I think that chance shouldn’t be taken away from them. It’s not that these kittens in question are feral, they’re after all in a household that somewhat take care of them, it’s hard to know to what degree.. maybe I’m biased as I personally know “big&gruff” guy that is the best cat dad ever.. But anyway I’m convinced that even if they’re taken away at 16 weeks, they’d still be a flexible material to work with if they’re offered enough love. It’s not that they are not around people right now. Yeah, maybe they won’t like being held and carried around, but it’s not natural for most cats anyway. So personally I’d give them the chance for a better emotional start by letting them stay with their siblings as long as they can..

BTW there’s some apocalypse about to happen in my area as well.. stay safe!

 

[PushPurrCatPaws]

...
BTW there’s some apocalypse about to happen in my area as well.. stay safe!

We hail from the same city!

Dark ominous cloud has passed and it's dry weather again, lol.


Anyway, good discussion. I guess I am in the camp that at about 11-12 weeks is an okay time to set kittens free from mama cat, if they have a mama cat.

I think it's a balance between socialization from the feline world and socialization from the human world. For me, if the socialization from the human world is "lacking" in some way (which I, if I were the future cat owner, would prefer a good human socialization to start ASAP), I'd rather the kitten --after 9-12 weeks with mom cat-- begin having a good home with it learning to be sociable with me.

 

[She's a witch]

We hail from the same city!

Dark ominous cloud has passed and it's dry weather again, lol.


Anyway, good discussion. I guess I am in the camp that at about 11-12 weeks is an okay time to set kittens free from mama cat, if they have a mama cat.

I think it's a balance between socialization from the feline world and socialization from the human world. For me, if the socialization from the human world is "lacking" in some way (which I, if I were the future cat owner, would prefer a good human socialization to start ASAP), I'd rather the kitten --after 9-12 weeks with mom cat-- begin having a good home with it learning to be sociable with me.

I could totally settle for 12weeks provided that kitten will go with the siblings; I think after that period siblings/other young cats are crucial and mom deserves the break from them anyway