Does it make you mad when..

  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #21

sohni

TCS Member
Thread starter
Super Cat
Joined
Oct 2, 2007
Messages
941
Reaction score
11
Location
Vancouver Island, BC
Sorry, don't agree at all. I have seen too many puppy mills spewing out "designer" crossbreeds. The West Edmonton Mall petstore is the worst.. $1500 for dachshund x chihuahuas and they are all snapped in in days.

If you want a crossbreed kitten, go adopt one from the 100's of legitimate rescues, from the SPCA to the feral cat organizations. Don't pay someone hundreds of dollars for the super cute half-ragdoll just so you can tell your friends you have something unique.

An anonymous statement of overused and misquoted rhetoric with a pretty background and a 'dire' message doesn't change my mind.

It actually makes me a bit angry that something as powerful as a poem about the holocaust would be used in that way.
 

northernglow

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
2,061
Reaction score
30
Location
Finland
Originally Posted by merrytreecats

It doesn't make me angry at all.

And a crossbred cat's more likely to be genetically healthy anyway. I used to breed Persians and let me tell you, I saw the effects of inbreeding in cats I bought as breeders from supposedly reputable catteries.
Really? You have a reliable source (link perhaps?) to show us some statistics that moggies are healtier than pedigreed cats?

These 'reputable' catteries you speak of.. If a breeder is unable to read pedigrees to see what matings are going to be too inbred/otherwise bad, they shouldn't be breeding (none offence..).
I don't know about US, but over here the mixed breed litters are way more inbred than purebreds. The kitten mills keep using the same cats over and over again, if a kitten doesn't sell they keep it and breed with it also (with it's own parents/siblings) etc. I'm actually keeping track on a Scottish Fold/BSH mill, they sell fake-registered cats for hundreds of euros (usually for $600) all the time, the litters are very bad looking and the amount of litters they have on one female per year is as many as the cat can breed. They sell a lot because we don't have any 'real' active Scottish Fold breeders here at the moment.

We also have this person known as 'The Cat Emperor' who keeps selling mixed breed cats for high prices, saying that he won't sell to a person who will mutilate (meaning spay or neuter) the cat, or keep it indoors. He advertises his kittens as 'fruits of a secret blue-blood affair', 'royal kittens without inbreeding, from almost pedigreed parents' and the parents are mixes of eachother and god only knows what. Many reports have been made (he keeps them under horrible conditions), but still he keeps doing it.. I think the problem is more clear in a country this small (human population 5 million), when compared to for example US. Here you can see thing go bad faster. We have to import a lot, and for example most of my cats have the inbreeding percentage way under 1% in 9 generations. How about yours?
 

sol

TCS Member
Alpha Cat
Joined
Sep 27, 2003
Messages
590
Reaction score
3
Location
Sweden
What makes me mad is irresponsible breeding no matter if breeds are mixed or not. I try to educate people so they don't buy kittens from such breeders. If no one's buying the kittens at least most of the breeders have to stop.
 

merrytreecats

TCS Member
Adult Cat
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Messages
252
Reaction score
1
Location
new jersey
Oh, they read the pedigrees, they deliberately inbred the cats. They told me this was perfectly okay if done right, all breeders did it, and sure I could provide a link, but I'm actually afraid that if I do these people could come after me. I had to part with these cats after I lost my job and therefore my place, and therefore my cattery so they got nothing to take from me, but I've been a victim of breeder harassment. If you like I could PM them to you. But the one cattery in particular I'm talking about is a TOP Persian show cattery that wins many prizes, or at least was a few years ago. They sold me a cat with: Breathing problems, tearing eyes, stunted growth, frail immune system and, interestingly for a breeding cat, sterility. I called them asking about the LOUD breathing problems I'd noticed as soon as I was no longer in the {very noisy} cat show hall and they told me it was just bubbles up his nose from the bath they had given him. A return/refund was out of the question as far as they were concerned. $1500 for him. I just paid it off last year.

Kitten mills aren't real catteries, I don't think there's a soul around who thinks that sort of thing is okay at all, I guess unless they're the ones running the place and making money off it, I would think there's some self deceit or denial going on about it then otherwise how could those monsters even live with themselves.

The healthest cats I've seen, generally speaking, are moggies.
 

sol

TCS Member
Alpha Cat
Joined
Sep 27, 2003
Messages
590
Reaction score
3
Location
Sweden
Originally Posted by merrytreecats

It doesn't make me angry at all.

A cat is a cat, and a crossbred cat's more likely to be genetically healthy anyway. I used to breed Persians and let me tell you, I saw the effects of inbreeding in cats I bought as breeders from supposedly reputable catteries.

As for "overpopulation", a cat is a cat, again. I don't see what's so much worse about breeding a non purebred cat vs a purebred cat. It's still another litter, whatever opinion one might have on that.

There will ALWAYS be unwanted pets, sadly, no matter how much we restrict them, and demonising everyone who decides to breed their animals is just what the animal rights extremists want us to do.

has anyone ever read this?

http://tebreezcockers.com/page28.html
I read and I couldn't help myself from smiling. Living in a social democratic country with strict animal protection laws... I quite like it.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #26

sohni

TCS Member
Thread starter
Super Cat
Joined
Oct 2, 2007
Messages
941
Reaction score
11
Location
Vancouver Island, BC
Sol, I am half Danish and did a Master's project on education in Denmark compared to our BC Education system. I have to say that I completely agree with their social system, and I wish we could emulate parts of it. It's not popular with many people I know, but I think it's time we gave up on the pioneering ideals prevalent in North America and moved to a more social system. High taxes are not necessarily evil if education, health care and a stable infrastructure are subsidized. I just don't like extreme capitalism, as the rich get richer and the poor stay poor.

Of course I am Canadian, and have a slightly different perspective.
 

merrytreecats

TCS Member
Adult Cat
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Messages
252
Reaction score
1
Location
new jersey
I disagree with the "socialised medicine is evil" part of the article. I posted it to show people what is happening with anti breeder legislation in our country {and others} and how the breeders themselves are being tricked into it and further propagating the argument against the very things they live for.

If these people really wanted to help animals, and the unwanted pet situation, they'd be using their hefty funding to fund low cost spay neuter, and aids to people to help them keep the pets they have rather than give them up due to whatever reason they do. Kind of like animal social services, keeping them in the homes they're in by offering people alternatices to dumping them. You wouldn't eliminate all pets being given up, but it'd help.

Heh...I'm rather poor and can't afford doctor visits or copays, here in the good ol' US of A. I usually self diagnose over the internet and buy my medicine overseas. {So far it's worked :p} So you won't see me fighting legislation to socialise health care in this country. But I don't see that as impinging on freedom when all I'm free to do right now is forgo "health care" that would put me on the streets.

Anyway I didn't want the topic to stray off the issue, I just wanted to put my 2 cents.
 

sol

TCS Member
Alpha Cat
Joined
Sep 27, 2003
Messages
590
Reaction score
3
Location
Sweden
Stupid legislation is always stupid no matter the social system.
I get the point, of course we have to think ahead when propagating new laws and such.

Personally I'm not against all non-purebred breeding (horror, horror, my youngest queen is hopefully pregnant with a British Shorthair... she's a Devon Rex) and I think the debate often lose the grey scale. Not everything is black and white.

Of course I live in a country with "only" appr. 100 000 homeless cats so we don't have the same major over population problem as you have in Northern America (or Australia with 18 million ferals that kill off their quite unique fauna) so I probably will have a different view on the matter. But sure, if we don't do anything the number of homeless cats will grow.

But no matter what kind of breeding you choose I believe it's important no ask yourself why you choose to breed. What kind of responsibility that is gie you? To many never ask themselves those questions and the victims usually end up being the ones we claim to love... the cats.
 

merrytreecats

TCS Member
Adult Cat
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Messages
252
Reaction score
1
Location
new jersey
Breeder legislation isn't the answer to the homeless cat overpopulation issue because most cats in shelters are produced by feral cats breeding on their own. Since no one owns them, breeding bans aren't going to do a thing to stop them, funding for sterlising them and keeping their numbers at a controllable level is what needs to be done. But AR activists love breed bans and breeding bans. Anything that brings domestic animals one step closer to extinction is a thumbs up from them.

What's happening is that the commercial breeding facilities {MILLS} are getting exemption from all the anti breeder and anti pet laws being passed because they have the money to lobby for the exemptions. So as things continue this way, what will happen is that the mills will, more and more, become the sole source of pets outside of shelters, which also won't see much improvement because pet stores provide no support for issues with animals once the animal is bought and taken home.
 

sol

TCS Member
Alpha Cat
Joined
Sep 27, 2003
Messages
590
Reaction score
3
Location
Sweden
Originally Posted by merrytreecats

Breeder legislation isn't the answer to the homeless cat overpopulation issue because most cats in shelters are produced by feral cats breeding on their own. Since no one owns them, breeding bans aren't going to do a thing to stop them, funding for sterlising them and keeping their numbers at a controllable level is what needs to be done. But AR activists love breed bans and breeding bans. Anything that brings domestic animals one step closer to extinction is a thumbs up from them.

What's happening is that the commercial breeding facilities {MILLS} are getting exemption from all the anti breeder and anti pet laws being passed because they have the money to lobby for the exemptions. So as things continue this way, what will happen is that the mills will, more and more, become the sole source of pets outside of shelters, which also won't see much improvement because pet stores provide no support for issues with animals once the animal is bought and taken home.
And that's of course a problem if serious breeding per se is fought and eventually eliminated.

Luckily we don't have that kind of direction on the animal protection laws here.
 

wellingtoncats

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Apr 17, 2003
Messages
36,227
Reaction score
24
Location
Wellington City, NZ
Originally Posted by merrytreecats

Oh, they read the pedigrees, they deliberately inbred the cats. They told me this was perfectly okay if done right, all breeders did it, and sure I could provide a link, but I'm actually afraid that if I do these people could come after me. I had to part with these cats after I lost my job and therefore my place, and therefore my cattery so they got nothing to take from me, but I've been a victim of breeder harassment. If you like I could PM them to you. But the one cattery in particular I'm talking about is a TOP Persian show cattery that wins many prizes, or at least was a few years ago. They sold me a cat with: Breathing problems, tearing eyes, stunted growth, frail immune system and, interestingly for a breeding cat, sterility. I called them asking about the LOUD breathing problems I'd noticed as soon as I was no longer in the {very noisy} cat show hall and they told me it was just bubbles up his nose from the bath they had given him. A return/refund was out of the question as far as they were concerned. $1500 for him. I just paid it off last year.

Kitten mills aren't real catteries, I don't think there's a soul around who thinks that sort of thing is okay at all, I guess unless they're the ones running the place and making money off it, I would think there's some self deceit or denial going on about it then otherwise how could those monsters even live with themselves.

The healthest cats I've seen, generally speaking, are moggies.
Part of a buying a breeding cat - in my opinion is actually meeting the cat in person and assessing it YOURSELF. About 9 years ago my mother & I purchased a Tortie Persian for breedingfrom Australia, sight unseen and we were promised a beautiful kitten who would win every show (cough, cough) and we ended up with a skinny runt who was covered in ring worm and had a head shaped like a triangle. Unfortunately we took a risk with buying her and you just cannot trust everybody. Breathing problems don't just happen over night in Persians generally - so even if it is a TOP cattery, it's still advisable to meet the cat in person

Sorry but you just paid off $1500 last year - that's a small fraction of costs involved with my cats per year and I don't think breeding is for anybody who can't afford it. Period. It's not cheap and not for the light hearted.

Also you can't really guarantee a breeding cat for breeding - it may sound silly but some cats just aren't up to it. It may be behavioral, genetic - whatever but unfortunately if your contract didn't include a refund or replacement if the cat was sterile - then that's just a case of buyers beware.
 

missymotus

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
May 8, 2005
Messages
9,038
Reaction score
48
Originally Posted by Sol

(horror, horror, my youngest queen is hopefully pregnant with a British Shorthair... she's a Devon Rex).
Ok, I'll bite....why?? I'm unaware of a breed allowing outcrossing Brits and Devons?
 

sol

TCS Member
Alpha Cat
Joined
Sep 27, 2003
Messages
590
Reaction score
3
Location
Sweden
Originally Posted by missymotus

Ok, I'll bite....why?? I'm unaware of a breed allowing outcrossing Brits and Devons?
I wanna add genetic variation to the gene pool and get a stronger profile in my Devons, that's why.


British Shorthair is an approved outcrossing breed for the Devon Rex within both TICA and the GCCF.
 

missymotus

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
May 8, 2005
Messages
9,038
Reaction score
48
Originally Posted by Sol

I wanna add genetic variation to the gene pool and get a stronger profile in my Devons, that's why.


British Shorthair is an approved outcrossing breed for the Devon Rex within both TICA and the GCCF.
thanks
Devons can't be outcrossed here, and your post made it sound more sinister than an outcrossing program.
 

sol

TCS Member
Alpha Cat
Joined
Sep 27, 2003
Messages
590
Reaction score
3
Location
Sweden
Originally Posted by missymotus

thanks
Devons can't be outcrossed here, and your post made it sound more sinister than an outcrossing program.
In Australia? I've seen lots of registred Australian Devon outcrosses. Maybe it's like the rules within FIFÃ[emoji]169[/emoji], there are no officially allowed outcrosses but you can have an outcross program approved by your association?
 

missymotus

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
May 8, 2005
Messages
9,038
Reaction score
48
All outcrossing is monitered here and approval has to be given before you begin the program. For example I cannot cross to aby just because I might want to, I need approval first.

Likely there was outcrossing allowed in Devons in the past, currently not.
 

mews2much

TCS Member
Top Cat
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Messages
13,424
Reaction score
26
Location
Central Valley,California
You can outcross Devon Rex to Sphynx in TICA but not CFA.
There is a gene that the Devons carry that has caused heart problems in sphynx.
 

sol

TCS Member
Alpha Cat
Joined
Sep 27, 2003
Messages
590
Reaction score
3
Location
Sweden
Originally Posted by mews2much

You can outcross Devon Rex to Sphynx in TICA but not CFA.
There is a gene that the Devons carry that has caused heart problems in sphynx.
If it's HCM you're talking about, don't blame the problems in the Sphynx breed on outcrossing with Devon Rex. HCM exists in all breeds and in moggies. In Sweden the frequency of HCM is appr. 4% in the Devon Rex, which is below normal!

What the Sphynx has gotten from the Devon Rex is a muscle disease, primary myopathy but it's extremely rare.
 

sol

TCS Member
Alpha Cat
Joined
Sep 27, 2003
Messages
590
Reaction score
3
Location
Sweden
Originally Posted by mews2much

I am talking about myopathy < Spasticity>
That's what I thought and myopathy doesn't affect the heart.
 
Top