Does Feeding Raw Really Save Money?

[sophie1]

My cats have had mixed responses to heart and gizzards from supermarkets, I think because they're often not fresh. A few of the packages were literally rotting when I opened them. That's why I ask for fresh giblets, as in the ones that are normally packaged with whole birds. Alternatively - if your cat isn't used to whole pieces that might be the issue. Cut them up small with scissors and see what happens.

Nothing wrong with chicken breast, it's just usually more expensive than thighs. But, good idea not to rely too heavily on chicken. Even if you do get a grinder and make chicken food, you could replace the thighs that the catinfo.org recipe calls for you to debone, with boneless pork, beef, turkey or whatever you find - plus occasionally mix boneless meats with your own eggshell or dried bone powder for a complete non-chicken option. I'm not sure what proportion of non-chicken meats to shoot for as it will increase your costs (and effort) significantly, but you probably want at least 1/3. In addition to beef and pork on sale, see if you can find frozen turkey drumsticks. They're not too hard to debone yourself, but you might convince a butcher to do it for you.

 

[sabrinah]

I cut the heart and gizzards up tiny but she still wasn't interested. The shelves had just been restocked and the package was still half frozen so it seemed pretty fresh. I gave what she wouldn't eat to my dog instead. He's the best garbage disposal! If he eats cat poop and rolls on dead things I think his stomach can handle a little raw meat.

I think I found turkey drumsticks once and they were close to $4/lb. If they go on sale for $3/lb or less I'll definitely get them. She's pretty much just stuck eating whatever is on sale. She's used to that though because its the only way I can afford somewhat higher quality food! I don't think beef will ever be on sale enough to be fed more than every great once in a while. I'm assuming using meats other than chicken doesn't affect Alnutrin at all.

 

[EmmiTemmi]

I cut the heart and gizzards up tiny but she still wasn't interested.

One of my boys didn't take to giblets right away either, even when I cut them up. But I just kept offering them in small bits and eventually he took to them! I store them in the freezer individually separated in a tupperware so I can just pluck one or two out whenever I want, run it under cold water for a couple minutes to thaw it, and then chuck it to the boys. That way they stay the freshest they can! If they've been in the fridge for longer than 2-3 days neither boy will eat them.

 

[1 bruce 1]

I cut the heart and gizzards up tiny but she still wasn't interested. The shelves had just been restocked and the package was still half frozen so it seemed pretty fresh. I gave what she wouldn't eat to my dog instead. He's the best garbage disposal! If he eats cat poop and rolls on dead things I think his stomach can handle a little raw meat.

I think I found turkey drumsticks once and they were close to $4/lb. If they go on sale for $3/lb or less I'll definitely get them. She's pretty much just stuck eating whatever is on sale. She's used to that though because its the only way I can afford somewhat higher quality food! I don't think beef will ever be on sale enough to be fed more than every great once in a while. I'm assuming using meats other than chicken doesn't affect Alnutrin at all.

Turkey drumsticks might be too dense/hard to grind. They might grind but not finely, so if possible I'd stick to non-weight bearing bones.
I've never tried grinding a turkey leg but I know of other feeders that say it usually doesn't work out so hot

 

[sabrinah]

One of my boys didn't take to giblets right away either, even when I cut them up. But I just kept offering them in small bits and eventually he took to them! I store them in the freezer individually separated in a tupperware so I can just pluck one or two out whenever I want, run it under cold water for a couple minutes to thaw it, and then chuck it to the boys. That way they stay the freshest they can! If they've been in the fridge for longer than 2-3 days neither boy will eat them.

I'll keep trying! I put them all in the freezer. I'll take a little bit out in a day or two and give it another shot.

Turkey drumsticks might be too dense/hard to grind. They might grind but not finely, so if possible I'd stick to non-weight bearing bones.
I've never tried grinding a turkey leg but I know of other feeders that say it usually doesn't work out so hot

I'm just grinding meat, not bone. I can't afford a grinder that can handle bone. I don't mind taking the time to cut the meat off of a turkey drumstick if the price is good.

She went to the vet today and it wasn't as awful as expected. They were having a deal so I got the full senior wellness (bloodwork, urinalysis, fecal) for $161, plus $51.50 for the exam. Overall not too bad. I do have to bring in a fecal sample in the next 30 days since they opted not to get super invasive, which I appreciate. Results should be ready tomorrow. Every time she gets put in her carrier she pees herself so she got a bath when we got home. She's so good about baths since she used to have to get them all the time. When I lived in Vegas she was indoor/outdoor and would roll in the dirt, so my dad made it a rule that she has to have weekly baths or she won't be allowed inside anymore. Needless to say, I got really good at giving her baths. Her skin got dreadfully dry since the shampoo they bought was just about the cheapest you could get. Now she only gets a bath once or twice a year after vet visits.

 

[1 bruce 1]

I'll keep trying! I put them all in the freezer. I'll take a little bit out in a day or two and give it another shot.


I'm just grinding meat, not bone. I can't afford a grinder that can handle bone. I don't mind taking the time to cut the meat off of a turkey drumstick if the price is good.

She went to the vet today and it wasn't as awful as expected. They were having a deal so I got the full senior wellness (bloodwork, urinalysis, fecal) for $161, plus $51.50 for the exam. Overall not too bad. I do have to bring in a fecal sample in the next 30 days since they opted not to get super invasive, which I appreciate. Results should be ready tomorrow. Every time she gets put in her carrier she pees herself so she got a bath when we got home. She's so good about baths since she used to have to get them all the time. When I lived in Vegas she was indoor/outdoor and would roll in the dirt, so my dad made it a rule that she has to have weekly baths or she won't be allowed inside anymore. Needless to say, I got really good at giving her baths. Her skin got dreadfully dry since the shampoo they bought was just about the cheapest you could get. Now she only gets a bath once or twice a year after vet visits.

Good on the turkey legs then =) I mis understood. I didn't want you to kill your brand new grinder or find the food is unsatisfactory. Our cats LOVE cooked drumstick meat, legs are easier to de bone when the meat is cooked and I'm just that lazy
If it's frustrating hacking meat off leg bones, I'd hack off what you can and feed it raw and then cook the bones and take the meat off. We've done this; bag up the leftover meat in small ziplocks and freeze. Extra treats, no waste!
$200 for a visit sounds like a lot, but for an exam, urine check, poop check and running blood work is really a good price IMO and super cool they didn't push you to do a lot of things unnecessarily.
I'm glad she's OK with baths! Poor girl, I hate when they pee themselves, and they act so upset from it..

 

[sabrinah]

I appreciate your concern for my future grinder! It'll just be a basic hand crank one. Do they sell turkey not on the bone? Boneless skinless turkey thighs or something? Why do I only ever see turkey thighs when there's far more to the bird than just it's legs?

Do I cook the meat on the bone for the kitty or let the dog gnaw it the rest off raw? That's a hard decision. Maybe I'll do it half and half. On the bright side, if I make something and she absolutely refuses to eat it I can give it to the 4 legged garbage disposal as treats.

I was expecting $250-300 so $212 made me pretty happy! I'm so glad I went while they were having a deal. They wanted a list of everything she was eating and when I mentioned we're working on switching to raw neither the tech or the vet said anything, so I'm going to take that as them not being especially for or against raw diets. Oh, and her weight is still 12.2 lbs, which is in her healthy range. I guess I was just going crazy when I thought she was getting thin. Giving her a bath was actually pretty helpful because I got to see her actual body shape without all the fluff, and I got to feel her entire body. She may be a shorthair but that fur is thick and fluffy! She usually never lets me touch her stomach, and rarely her sides, except for bath time. During bath time I can even wash her tushy (the pee gets everywhere) without protest.

 

[1 bruce 1]

I appreciate your concern for my future grinder! It'll just be a basic hand crank one. Do they sell turkey not on the bone? Boneless skinless turkey thighs or something? Why do I only ever see turkey thighs when there's far more to the bird than just it's legs?

Do I cook the meat on the bone for the kitty or let the dog gnaw it the rest off raw? That's a hard decision. Maybe I'll do it half and half. On the bright side, if I make something and she absolutely refuses to eat it I can give it to the 4 legged garbage disposal as treats.

I was expecting $250-300 so $212 made me pretty happy! I'm so glad I went while they were having a deal. They wanted a list of everything she was eating and when I mentioned we're working on switching to raw neither the tech or the vet said anything, so I'm going to take that as them not being especially for or against raw diets. Oh, and her weight is still 12.2 lbs, which is in her healthy range. I guess I was just going crazy when I thought she was getting thin. Giving her a bath was actually pretty helpful because I got to see her actual body shape without all the fluff, and I got to feel her entire body. She may be a shorthair but that fur is thick and fluffy! She usually never lets me touch her stomach, and rarely her sides, except for bath time. During bath time I can even wash her tushy (the pee gets everywhere) without protest.

I'm glad your grinder won't be begging for mercy! =D

I wouldn't let anyone gnaw on a cooked poultry bone, dog or cat, as they splinter terribly and cooked bones are bad news.
If you cook the bones down, do so until the leftover meat falls off and discard the bones into a dog/cat proof bin!
We started with a hand crank grinder back in the 90's. It was work, but a good work out and produced lovely bags of food that froze well!
I don't buy much turkey aside from raw feeding co-ops or butchers, but we've had a few transfer to a cooked (supplemented, of course) diet over the years, and in that case whole turkeys are very cheap after the holidays. A freezer is good here, but if that's not possible right now there are other options.
I'm not sure where you're located but you might find it way cheaper to talk to some butchers vs. grocery stores, and see if they'd have meat scraps to save. They might even grind the boneless stuff for you. Tell them you're making dog/cat food. Most butchers find this really cool and are happy to help. They might be able to grind things like offal (heart, kidney, lung, etc.) for you as a "mix" to take the drudgery out of organ meats. Plus raw liver is gross, LOL When one of our dogs MANY years ago became a toothless wonder, we asked the butcher to grind a 75%/25% mixture of heart/liver for him (to add to his grinds) and they were happy to do so, but told us it would be the last thing they did and the order would be available the next day. No big deal. They were super nice and though they wouldn't grind bones (no big deal), they DID grind us a nice mixture of offal and meats, and we hand-ground things like wings, etc, to add to the mix.
I'm sure MPC (mypetcarnivore.com) and hare-today.com have been mentioned as a back up, too!

 

[sophie1]

Great tip about butchers. I should ask the poultry farm where I get turkey and chicken meats & offal about grinding, though I don't mind cutting up meat with scissors to give my cats chunks for chewing.

Also, you should definitely look into local coops! Bulk and coop purchases work best if you have lots of freezer space which I suspect you don't, but maybe you can find people to split orders with. If you can get whole ground chicken cheaply, you can mix each pound of this with 1.5 pounds boneless meats in whatever variety you like, plus ~2.5 oz liver, and you're in business without having to invest in an expensive grinder.

Sadly, Hare Today is beyond your budget after the latest round of price hikes. My Pet Carnivore could be an option for you if you live close enough to pick up your order. They have a chicken mix with extra organs which is most convenient - you only have to mix 1 lb of the mix with 1 lb boneless meat. I wish Hare Today had something like that.

 

[sabrinah]

I wouldn't let anyone gnaw on a cooked poultry bone, dog or cat, as they splinter terribly and cooked bones are bad news.

I must have poorly worded my post. One cooked bone for the cat to get the extra meat, one raw bone for the dog to eat. I definitely never let anyone eat cooked bones.

Yes, HareToday is far out of the budget and I'm in California, so picking up My Pet Carnivore isn't an option. There is a co-op that I pass by on my way home that I need to check out. Freezer space is minimal though. I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with getting meat ground there since I don't know how well or how often they clean the grinder. If I remember I'll stop by on Friday and check it out.

 

[sabrinah]

The first trial batch of raw will be made shortly! She has a clean bill of health!

I did mention to the vet that she seems to only be tolerating progressively more expensive foods and having an upset stomach on lower quality, and she recommended Royal Canin because it's the best that there is Yes, by all means, let me feed my tiny carnivore overpriced corn and rice. I said I won't do that because I don't like the ingredients and mentioned switching to raw. She said not to because of salmonella, and once again pushed for the glorified carbs because Royal Canin and Hills are the only ones with any science behind them. I rrreeeaaaallllyyyy want to find a new vet, but they all seem to be the same. Why don't any vets take legitimate nutrition courses? Ones NOT funded by Hills or Royal Canin? Does such a thing not exist? It isn't fair for veterinarians and nutritionists to push for such vastly different things. And since this one is 1000% against raw, am I going to have to lie about her diet if I'm stuck going back there? Based on her tone I definitely think feeding something she disapproves of will get us worse treatment.

Sorry for the tangent. I'm a wee bit angry at the moment.

 

[1 bruce 1]

The first trial batch of raw will be made shortly! She has a clean bill of health!

I did mention to the vet that she seems to only be tolerating progressively more expensive foods and having an upset stomach on lower quality, and she recommended Royal Canin because it's the best that there is Yes, by all means, let me feed my tiny carnivore overpriced corn and rice. I said I won't do that because I don't like the ingredients and mentioned switching to raw. She said not to because of salmonella, and once again pushed for the glorified carbs because Royal Canin and Hills are the only ones with any science behind them. I rrreeeaaaallllyyyy want to find a new vet, but they all seem to be the same. Why don't any vets take legitimate nutrition courses? Ones NOT funded by Hills or Royal Canin? Does such a thing not exist? It isn't fair for veterinarians and nutritionists to push for such vastly different things. And since this one is 1000% against raw, am I going to have to lie about her diet if I'm stuck going back there? Based on her tone I definitely think feeding something she disapproves of will get us worse treatment.

Sorry for the tangent. I'm a wee bit angry at the moment.

I don't know, but it seems that vets forget that kibble and canned foods are routinely recalled for salmonella as well as other lovely things like listeria and e-coli.
As nuts as it sounds, I rarely discuss nutrition with my vets. If I'm there, I don't bring the subject up. If they ask, I tell them what I feed and tell them I've been doing so for many years and am happy, and point out the one pet we have that can't handle raw in any shape or form and we listened to his complaints and switched to a commercial brand to suit his needs. I end the discussion on the note that yes, I feed raw and am happy with it, but I'm not so wedded to the idea that if a dog or cat is eating raw but looks poorly, is throwing up/losing weight with a poor coat that I'm unwilling to explore other options to keep them happy.

 

[sabrinah]

I don't know, but it seems that vets forget that kibble and canned foods are routinely recalled for salmonella as well as other lovely things like listeria and e-coli.
As nuts as it sounds, I rarely discuss nutrition with my vets. If I'm there, I don't bring the subject up. If they ask, I tell them what I feed and tell them I've been doing so for many years and am happy, and point out the one pet we have that can't handle raw in any shape or form and we listened to his complaints and switched to a commercial brand to suit his needs. I end the discussion on the note that yes, I feed raw and am happy with it, but I'm not so wedded to the idea that if a dog or cat is eating raw but looks poorly, is throwing up/losing weight with a poor coat that I'm unwilling to explore other options to keep them happy.

Exactly! Kibble and canned aren't exempt from anything! And they have the added risk of pentobarbital, plastic and metal bits, mold, etc. This office seems to like asking all kinds of question about feeding, so I'm sure the topic will come up again. If my cat doesn't do well on raw, I'll try homemade cooked. If that's a failure too, she'll go back to what she's eating now. Anything is better than Hills and Royal Canin.

 

[1 bruce 1]

Exactly! Kibble and canned aren't exempt from anything! And they have the added risk of pentobarbital, plastic and metal bits, mold, etc. This office seems to like asking all kinds of question about feeding, so I'm sure the topic will come up again. If my cat doesn't do well on raw, I'll try homemade cooked. If that's a failure too, she'll go back to what she's eating now. Anything is better than Hills and Royal Canin.

I have little against quality, commercial foods so long as the dog or cat is doing well. However, it's hard for me to take anyone seriously when they comment on my dog or cats coat condition, body structure (lean and muscular), good teeth, and "not showing their age" and then turning around and telling me the diet they were reared, raised, and have lived on for years will murder them =/

 

[sabrinah]

I have little against quality, commercial foods so long as the dog or cat is doing well. However, it's hard for me to take anyone seriously when they comment on my dog or cats coat condition, body structure (lean and muscular), good teeth, and "not showing their age" and then turning around and telling me the diet they were reared, raised, and have lived on for years will murder them =/

Commercial foods are fine, my cat has made it to 14 so far and for 10 years she was eating whatever kibble was cheap at Walmart. All my pets eat commercial (for now) but I can't stand it when people demonize raw and act like nothing bad can happen when feeding commercial. I also can't stand when people aggressively push raw food only because they think pets are being poisoned by kibble. Both diets can be wonderful and both can be a steaming pile of ****. But I mean, it would be good if everyone could agree that neither corn nor rice should be in the top ingredients of cat food, even if it doesn't kill the cat to eat it.

 

[1 bruce 1]

Commercial foods are fine, my cat has made it to 14 so far and for 10 years she was eating whatever kibble was cheap at Walmart. All my pets eat commercial (for now) but I can't stand it when people demonize raw and act like nothing bad can happen when feeding commercial. I also can't stand when people aggressively push raw food only because they think pets are being poisoned by kibble. Both diets can be wonderful and both can be a steaming pile of ****. But I mean, it would be good if everyone could agree that neither corn nor rice should be in the top ingredients of cat food, even if it doesn't kill the cat to eat it.

Raw is unpopular unfortunately. We only chose to go raw because we found we could do it cheaper than kibble! We were really pleased with the results we saw, especially in our older pets. (It encouraged us to clean up and be aware of our own diets...sometimes a work in progress! I still want Oreo's and milk, darn it! <g>)
Years ago we took this venture one step further and began talking with breeders of dogs that had used a natural rearing method (raw foods, very little vaccines and only vaccinating healthy individuals on a certain schedule and treating minor ailments with non-invasive methods) and were amazed. Dog breeds that usually see 10-12 years were seeing 15 years. This isn't solely credited to diet, but all things they did. They stressed the importance of sunlight, inter-species relationships (dogs being friends with other dogs) and fresh air....not to mention good, hardy genetics to back the entire process up, because without healthy genes, the best of intentions seemingly fail. (That doesn't mean we quit trying...)
The best of the best IMO used "regular" vets for emergencies and serious health issues. I think there's a really great balance between the two schools of thought. Like you, I feel it's a shame the two schools clash. The incessant bickering could be eliminated if both parties listened to what the other side had to say....

 

[sabrinah]

Raw is unpopular unfortunately. We only chose to go raw because we found we could do it cheaper than kibble! We were really pleased with the results we saw, especially in our older pets. (It encouraged us to clean up and be aware of our own diets...sometimes a work in progress! I still want Oreo's and milk, darn it! <g>)
Years ago we took this venture one step further and began talking with breeders of dogs that had used a natural rearing method (raw foods, very little vaccines and only vaccinating healthy individuals on a certain schedule and treating minor ailments with non-invasive methods) and were amazed. Dog breeds that usually see 10-12 years were seeing 15 years. This isn't solely credited to diet, but all things they did. They stressed the importance of sunlight, inter-species relationships (dogs being friends with other dogs) and fresh air....not to mention good, hardy genetics to back the entire process up, because without healthy genes, the best of intentions seemingly fail. (That doesn't mean we quit trying...)
The best of the best IMO used "regular" vets for emergencies and serious health issues. I think there's a really great balance between the two schools of thought. Like you, I feel it's a shame the two schools clash. The incessant bickering could be eliminated if both parties listened to what the other side had to say....

Now I want Oreos! I avoid them because of the palm oil, but I miss the taste oh so much. Learning where palm oil came from helped be significantly reduce my cookie and chocolate consumption, and it made me cut Nutella out of my diet completely (I was eating at least 1 jar a month. It was bad).

In my imaginary world, it would be great if all vets had some nutritionists that were regularly consulted, and nutritionists made friends with the vets. Everyone talk, make friends, and keep all the pets healthy and properly fed. I do wonder... when a nutritionist takes his/her pet to the vet, do they get into arguments about food? I'm imagining things like the nutritionist feeding a ckd cat a raw diet and the vet insisting on a Hills diet that restricts protein. That would be an interesting debate to hear!

 

[Tobermory]

I haven't taken the girls to the vet since I started making their food, but anticipating some push back, I'm planning to give him the recipe to show him exactly what I'm feeding them. Before he opened a practice, he taught at a vet school. It will be interesting to see how he feels about raw/homemade!

 

[1 bruce 1]

Now I want Oreos! I avoid them because of the palm oil, but I miss the taste oh so much. Learning where palm oil came from helped be significantly reduce my cookie and chocolate consumption, and it made me cut Nutella out of my diet completely (I was eating at least 1 jar a month. It was bad).

In my imaginary world, it would be great if all vets had some nutritionists that were regularly consulted, and nutritionists made friends with the vets. Everyone talk, make friends, and keep all the pets healthy and properly fed. I do wonder... when a nutritionist takes his/her pet to the vet, do they get into arguments about food? I'm imagining things like the nutritionist feeding a ckd cat a raw diet and the vet insisting on a Hills diet that restricts protein. That would be an interesting debate to hear!

I grew up with Oreo's as a treat. I am still so in love with them, I like the simplicity =) I've dabbled in making my own, and have made some very fine tasting cookies but they're just not "it".
Good on you for recognizing palm oil isn't all it's cracked up to be. I'm a foodie, and that goes for health food too, but I figure my dogs enjoy junk treats and my cats enjoy junk treats so why can't I so long as it's an every so often thing!
I wonder if a vet would look at a nutritionist and assume that they're both in the same field but specialize in very different things. I would hope so, at least.
I am not a huge fan of Rx diets. I've used them briefly for very, very critically ill pets, but only as a brief intervention. I don't necessarily get behind Rx diets as a long term solution, but that's only my decades of ownership/business speaking!
I will say we used Science Diet A/D for a cat that was very ill (he did not survive his illness, unfortunately) but the A/D was well taken by him. It was super high calorie, which was great for a seriously underweight cat fighting a really nasty form of cancer. The ingredients weren't great, but for building his weight/strength up I think it did give him a little extra time. Long term, it's not a good diet.
I always fudged the term "A/D" by calling it "AC/DC", a band I happen to love, so whenever his feeding time arrived I was all "BACK IN BLACK!" (he was a black cat!) and dumping globs of wet food into his sick-guy condo for him, which he happily snarfed down.
10 years ago that memory would have hurt but now I laugh because it was so ridiculous, but it kept me upbeat and happy which I think helped my guy =)
I agree with you. If medicine that focused on treatment (especially for fast acting, aggressive diseases that take lives and NEED medical intervention) would pair up with holistic medicine (that can treat diseases, but those treatments work slow and deep) would team up, who knows what great things might happen.
The bickering between the two schools of thought is crazy and reminds me of a kindergarten schoolyard fight. I'm all for alternative medicine for minor ailments, but I once read about a homeopath (another form of medicine I'm deeply interested in) that "fired" clients if they used any kind of "drugs", even if those drugs were a life saving intervention (antibiotics for a bad infection that spikes a fever of 107, etc. I'd fire that damn homeopath.)
If they'd stop the arguing and quit the God complex, they could each learn a lot...if this happened, many lives would be saved.

 

[sabrinah]

Whelp I screwed up a bit.

There were chicken breasts for $1.69/ lb, so I bought a pack (4lbs). I decided to do the partial cook thing, and I was feeling incredibly optimistic, so I stuck all 4 breasts in the oven. Well, I've never made chicken before besides boiling some for my dog when he has tummy troubles. I nearly fully cooked the chicken! I didn't want to waste it so I figured since I know she likes cooked chicken, I'll still use it and this way I can tell if she likes the Alnutrin or not. I followed the Alnutrin directions with the sample pack, water, 1 lb of chicken, and chicken liver. My optimism had been worn down a bit by the overcooking, but it wasn't dead yet. I presented her with a teaspoon of the mix. She wouldn't even sniff it. Ok, too much too soon. I took that away and mixed a tiny bit with her canned food at dinner time. Nope. Nope nope nope. She is not impressed. She won't even try it. Sigh. I wish I knew which part she didn't like. Is it the Alnutrin? EzComplete is expensive! Is it the raw liver? Would she prefer homemade cooked? What to do, what to do...