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Does anyone know why Bengal's aren't accepted by CFA?

hopehacker

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I know they are accepted by other associations, but I can't understand why Bengal's aren't CFA, as well. Bengal's like my Simba are as domesticated as any other cat. I know some of the earlier generations are still considered to have too much wild blood, but why wouldn't CFA accept SBT Bengal?
 

kai bengals

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To be honest...it's political.

There are many rumors as to the exact reason why, some are close to being correct, some aren't.

All breeds are from "wild blood" originally, so that excuse is at best...."a lame excuse".

I would rather show my cats in TICA, UFO and ACFA...... than CFA anyway.

If CFA ever changed it's policy I would snub them anyway.
 

sharky

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wild blood ??? an f4 or sbt( i think) is max of 12.5% wild.. so any generation after that would be nill to none..

Kai
who is the beauty in your sig??
 

kai bengals

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Originally Posted by sharky

Kai
who is the beauty in your sig??
That is our "Kahekili". He's one of our stud cats...in the sig he's just 7 months old...he's older now and even more magnificent. He's my special boy and was paralyzed for a time, but thankfully recovered. He's all better now and is just a stunning example of a bengal cat and about 1.3 years old.
 

semiferal

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I am curious about the CFA's concept of "wild blood", since the domestic cat and the wild cats found in most of the Eastern hemisphere are all of the Felis silvestris species, genetically alike and perfectly capable of producing fertile offspring by interbreeding. Saying that their blood is somehow "wild" just doesn't seem to be rooted in biology. By their definition would a domestic kitten with one or two feral parents also be considered to have "wild blood"? I'd be curious to hear the reasoning the CFA would offer for either response.

Sorry for hijacking the thread.
 

kai bengals

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CFA's stance on "wild blood" doesn't make sense and is more of an excuse for them not to accept or recognize new breeds. Most of the new breeds they won't allow are being developed from "wild" cats. It's not just the bengals that they won't allow to compete.
Rumor has it, so this may or may not be entirely true: CFA allowed bengals to compete once upon a time, but some exhibitor ignored the rules concerning how many generations removed from the asian leopard cat that the bengal being shown must be. So, a foundation cat made it to the judges podium and got unruly, inflicting some injury upon the judge because the cat was scared to death. This resulted in a ban on bengals, even though the offending cat was not a bengal, rather a hybrid foundation cat.

There is probably more to the whole story than that, but it seems to be the most widely broadcast reason for the CFA decision.

Your question is a good one and I'd be very interested in knowing what CFA would say, but my guess is they will not comment.
 

goldenkitty45

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Im guessing here, but established breeds are so far removed from the wild cat that its not a problem. Maybe CFA feels the unless the cat has no wild blood in the lines for 10/15 generations it may be safe. Four or five generations still would be "wild" to them.

There is a difference in a ferel cat in the background compared to a real wild cat - bobcat, servel, leopard cat, etc. That is probably where CFA is having the problems with acceptance of the bengels.
 

semiferal

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Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

Im guessing here, but established breeds are so far removed from the wild cat that its not a problem. Maybe CFA feels the unless the cat has no wild blood in the lines for 10/15 generations it may be safe. Four or five generations still would be "wild" to them.

There is a difference in a ferel cat in the background compared to a real wild cat - bobcat, servel, leopard cat, etc. That is probably where CFA is having the problems with acceptance of the bengels.
I see what you are saying but my question was how they define "wild" blood, since it is not a biologically accurate term in this case. The wild cats of the Felis silvestris species and the domestic cat have the same genotype and biology does not make a distinction between one or the other. For that matter neither do the cats. A pet cat and a wild Felis silvestris will happily interbreed and have completely normal kittens who can easily live either as pet cats or as wild cats, depending on their environment and experiences. And biologically and behaviorally there is no difference whatsoever between a feral cat and a wild small cat. Since there is no biological criteria for "wild blood", the term is by nature completely subjective. There would be no way to prove or disprove that a cat has this "wild blood".

Servals, bobcats, and leopards are a totally different story because they are a different species from the domestic cat. The basic biological criterion for classifying two animals as being of the same species is if they can mate and produce fertile offspring. The cats listed above either cannot interbreed with cats or their offspring are sterile. It is totally reasonable for the CFA to disallow, say, domestic cat-bobcat hybrids, and doing so could be easily justified by biological science.
 
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hopehacker

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The "Wild" blood in the Bengal cat comes from a REAL wildcat, known as the Asian Leopard cat. It's not a wild cat, like a feral cat, it's a wild cat biologically. The reason I wonder why CFA has refused to accept the SBT Bengal's is because they are considered to be far enough removed from the biological wild cat, the Asian Leopard cat, as to be considered as domesticated as a Persian or a Siamese. Bengal's aren't from a feral or street cat. bit an actual wid cat.
 

goldenkitty45

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Exactly- the asian leopard cat is a "wild" cat - not just a feral cat. And bobcat/domestic cat crosses are sterile in the 1st generation males, but the females can breed; so they too would be "wild" cat crosses. Same with the servels. There are several people experimenting with crossing wild cats into the domestic cats.

Question to the bengel breeders: Is there any time where you might back or out cross to the asian leopard cat or a 1st/2nd generation bengel to keep the type? or for other reasons?
 

solaritybengals

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As far as I see it from a genetics/pedigree point of view is:

F1 = Asian Leopard Cat (100% wild) x domestic (0% wild) = approx. 50% wild
F2 = F1 x domestic = 25% wild
F3 = F2 x domestic = 12.5% wild
F4 = F3 x domestic = 7.25% wild (SBT)
F5 = F4 x F4 = 7.25% wild (SBT)

SBT stabalizes and dosen't continue to go down in wild blood. Of course you can't pick and choose if the kitten gets EXACTLY half the wild genes from each parent but its a pretty close approximation.

The reason it stabalizes is because half the genes from the F4 are passed 3.625 and half of the genetics of the other F4 that is 3.625 so all SBT's have a minimum of 7.25% wild blood (minimum minimum).

I don't know if I'm making any sense but what I'm trying to say is it dosen't matter if you have an F10 or an F4 most likely they won't have under 7% wild since that is the absolute minimum. It just dosen't go down anymore.

Now take the 7.25% and plug that back into the original equation and you get:

F1 = Asian Leopard Cat x Bengal = approx. 53.625% wild
F2 = F1 x Bengal = 30.44% wild
F3 = F2 x Bengal = 18.84% wild
F4 = F3 x Bengal = 13% wild (SBT)
F5 = F4 x F4 = 13% wild (SBT)

So there is a variance from 7.25% to 13% from teh original bengals that were crossed with a domestic to the nowaday bengal to bengal cross.

This doesn't take into mind that some F1's can be up to 80% wild at times when you cross and F1 back to an Asian Leopard Cat and stengthen teh wild blood. Many lines of bengals have this as well. The only way to know is to look at your cats pedigree.

So because of this it dosen't matter how late the generation is, CFA still sees every cat to have to much wild blood. Unfortunate though. I do hope eventually they change their minds. I'm a proud owner of an F3
and she is a truly wonderful cat.
 
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hopehacker

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On Simba's papers all it said was SBT. Both of his parents are Bengal's, though. I can't remember if it said F4 or F5, and I've misplaced his papers. I do remember reading SBT, though, which means he's considered a Domestic cat. By the way, I like the name of your Savannah cat. She's very pretty, and she shares my name.
 

solaritybengals

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I think that most bengal breeders do infact know why the CFA dosen't recongnize them once they learn wild blood isn't allowed. However, pet owners may not understand this unless the breeder discusses it with them and most pet owners don't care unless they have a show cat.
 

solaritybengals

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Originally Posted by HopeHacker

On Simba's papers all it said was SBT. Both of his parents are Bengal's, though. I can't remember if it said F4 or F5, and I've misplaced his papers. I do remember reading SBT, though, which means he's considered a Domestic cat. By the way, I like the name of your Savannah cat. She's very pretty, and she shares my name.
If you have an F4 or F5 then you have a minimum of 12% wild I'm sure. Its really easy to investigate which Asian Leopard Cat your came from by using teh online pedigree tool for bengals:
www.bengalpedigrees.com/

If your papers allow you to show than have fun with TICA
.

Thanks for the compliment. She aquired that name because she was born flat-chested and all we could do was hope for her survival. She's also an F4, all the hybrids work the way I described above.

Edit: As far as domestic goes the bengal organizations concludes F4 to be domestic however state to state legislature says differently. I've been hearing a lot about this in my breeders organizations... New York for one considers F6 and after domestic. And there are other legalities across the US. Some of the north-eastern states are the strictest and may even require permits to keep an early generation bengal. Its more the rarity than anything though.
 

bengalbabe

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Anyway, you notice that there are no to very little occicat breeders showing in TICA? hmmm... I wonder why. Maybe too much competition with bengals, since bengals have nice rosettes among other things that occicats don't have.
 
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hopehacker

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To be honest, I didn't start this thread to cause problems. It was just a question I had because I have a Bengal. I don't breed him. He's a pet. I was simply curious. I feel like it's all my fault for causing this because I asked this question. Whether we are fan's of Bengal's or not, we all must agree that we all love cats, and cat lovers are wonderful people. So, please don't cause a fight, because of my question.
 

solaritybengals

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Its not your fault! Don't worry about it. This is actually probably a more sensitive topic than you realized. Using the wild blood in pedigrees is open for huge debate among breeders and showers. I've out right got scolded for liking bengals by a breeder at a CFA show (before I got into breeding). Its just a touchy subject.
 
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hopehacker

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I don't know how anyone could not love a Bengal. They are just about the most beautiful cats I've ever seen. There's a lot more to their beauty than just the spots. I haven't seen a Bengal that didn't have the most beautiful and unique eyes. I think that comes from Asian Leopard Cat. To me, their fur feels like a mink coat or someting, and the beautiful way they sparkle or glitter in the sunlight. Sometimes I just look at Simba and his beauty takes my breath away. It's too bad that CFA is so strict on this, but they have to do what they feel is right. I personally love Bengal's, and I'm sure Mau's are beautiful, too, but it's all a matter of taste. Me, I prefer the look of a Bengal.
 
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