Do I need to supplement with whole ground prey?

[losna]

I'd thought if it was a ground mix containing everything, that it wouldn't need supplements. But lately I've seen a few posts saying that ground does need supplementing even if it is the whole animal.

I finally found a place that will deliver to us and doesn't have a minimum order size ... so just wanted to get some final advice before moving to full raw diets for Sinbad and Tempest.

Here is the specific product:  

https://www.mypetcarnivore.com/inde...oduct_id=842&virtuemart_category_id=2&lang=en

https://www.mypetcarnivore.com/inde...roduct_id=5&virtuemart_category_id=10&lang=en

Do I need to supplement those or is it fine by itself? I will also be adding in whole chicken hearts as treats as both Sinbad and Tempest love snacking on them.

 

[lisamarie12]

 
I'd thought if it was a ground mix containing everything, that it wouldn't need supplements. But lately I've seen a few posts saying that ground does need supplementing even if it is the whole animal.
Do I need to supplement those or is it fine by itself? I will also be adding in whole chicken hearts as treats as both Sinbad and Tempest love snacking on them.

My understanding of this (and I'm hardly an expert b/c when I use raw it's commercial raw) is that any time the animal is "cut up" post slaughter, nutrients are lost. So it doesn't matter that My Pet Carnivore is using whole prey as ground meat, supplementation would still be in order. The grinding of whole prey / parts into ground apparently can cause some nutrient degradation.

Hopefully others with more knowledge and experience with homemade and or whole prey diets will chime in but this is my impression.

Be careful also as to the amount of chicken hearts you'll be adding to MPC - it's assumed that MPC is adding the correct amount of organ meats and you don't want to over supplement as well.

 

[royblazer]

From what I have read, theoretically, whole ground prey does not need supplementation. I'm assuming that most do it anyway, to be on the safe side.

 

[mschauer]

 
I'd thought if it was a ground mix containing everything, that it wouldn't need supplements. But lately I've seen a few posts saying that ground does need supplementing even if it is the whole animal.

I finally found a place that will deliver to us and doesn't have a minimum order size ... so just wanted to get some final advice before moving to full raw diets for Sinbad and Tempest.

Here is the specific product:  

https://www.mypetcarnivore.com/inde...oduct_id=842&virtuemart_category_id=2&lang=en

https://www.mypetcarnivore.com/inde...roduct_id=5&virtuemart_category_id=10&lang=en

Do I need to supplement those or is it fine by itself? I will also be adding in whole chicken hearts as treats as both Sinbad and Tempest love snacking on them.

Neither of those links is to a true whole prey product. The first is to their chicken products that seem to be limited to feet, gizzards, hearts, liver and necks.

The second is to a "ground whole muskrat" product that is muskrats that have been skinned and eviscerated (organs removed). So also not a whole animal product.

 

[losna]

 
Neither of those links is to a true whole prey product. The first is to their chicken products that seem to be limited to feet, gizzards, hearts, liver and necks.

The second is to a "ground whole muskrat" product that is muskrats that have been skinned and eviscerated (organs removed). So also not a whole animal product.

How fascinating. The links no longer lead to the products I purchased. Looks like when they run out, the links change and you can no longer see the original items. Both the chicken and the muskrat that I bought contained meat, bones, organs heads and feet.

 

[mschauer]

Looking at other pages on their site they seem to misuse "eviscerate". I believe they mean "disembowel" (removal of the stomach and intestines).

Most people don't supplement true whole animal (disemboweled but including all other organs and the head) products. One exception is rabbit which is naturally low in taurine and should be supplemented with taurine whether ground or not.

You need to be careful though that you don't feed too much bone. A whole chicken is about 28% bone which might cause constipation in your cat. You would need to add boneless meat or additional organs to dilute the bone.

 

[losna]

You need to be careful though that you don't feed too much bone. A whole chicken is about 28% bone which might cause constipation in your cat. You would need to add boneless meat or additional organs to dilute the bone.

I currently feed Sinbad and Tempest a blend of raw chicken hearts, gizzards and canned food with the occasional treat of liver and chicken spines; I've been holding off on a full raw transition until now as I hadn't been able to find sources for organs other than hearts and livers. So I'm not too worried about constipation problems as I am already practiced with watching their stools for signs of problems. Sinbad is especially prone to constipation when he gets stressed (and he worries about everyone so he is constantly stressing himself out, poor little guy), so he gets added pumpkin to his food and I'm familiar with the change in texture that heralds constipation if I don't give him more fiber. I've read that psyllium husk is also good, and have been considering seeing how he does with that because he hates  the pumpkin. Luckily for me he's a little glutton so despite his making it plain to me that he does not approve, he isn't willing to give up his breakfast even though it has pumpkin in it. 

I'm most worried about malnutrition.

I've run through my feeding plans with both vets that we see, and they had no problems with it. But I wanted to specifically ask the more experienced people here because I am really scared of making a health mistake with them since I've seen so many posts lately saying that ground whole prey needs supplementing even if it's the entire animal. And it does seem now and again as though I know more about raw feeding than the vets do, despite their being holistic vets who are pro-raw with "consider raw feeding!" signs all over their practice. 

To be honest I really don't want to feed ground meat. What I may end up doing after a while is just buying the organ mixes (I see they are out of their organ mixes now as well so I can't link to it) and serving it with chopped up fryer chickens. 

But it sounds like the true whole animal ground mix doesn't need supplementing then? Am I interpreting that correctly?

 

[mschauer]

But it sounds like the true whole animal ground mix doesn't need supplementing then? Am I interpreting that correctly?

True ground whole animal would be close to a whole prey diet the only differences being the grinding and possibly skinning. Whole prey is a cats natural diet and theoretically doesn't require added supplements.  I don't think anyone can say for sure whether the whole animal grinds you are planning to use might benefit from supplementation but I'm pretty sure most people would say they don't.

 

[losna]

Ok, thank you. I will just do what I'd intended to do then! 

 

[sophie1]

I've always supplemented whole animal grinds, because Lisa Pierson's website indicates that she does this with ground whole rabbit.

I wish the UC Davis study demonstrating taurine deficiency in a 100% rabbit diet had differentiated between deficiency due to nutrient loss from grinding (which is entirely theoretical) and inherent taurine deficiency in the rabbits fed - which would be easily dealt with by feeding a variety of proteins.  Until that piece of info is settled, I choose to supplement - just B, E, and taurine per the recipe.

 

[losna]

Hubby thinks we should just get the alnutrin for meat + bone supplement, so we will order some later today. I don't think a few days of just the whole ground + chicken hearts will hurt them while we wait for it to arrive.

They just had their first meal of all meat with no canned food.. for the past year they've been eating a mix of mostly canned food with chunks of meat, so they are used to meat. They were puzzled at first, but when I poured some blood from the chicken hearts all over it they dove right in. Success! Sinbad even ate his entire meal, rather than fussing with it the way he normally does. Usually he picks out the meat, eats it, then tries to convince me that the canned stuff isn't proper food and he's going to starve. 

 

[mschauer]

 
Hubby thinks we should just get the alnutrin for meat + bone supplement, so we will order some later today. I don't think a few days of just the whole ground + chicken hearts will hurt them while we wait for it to arrive.

Alnutrin should not be used with whole body grinds. Those grinds contain  the thyroid which is a rich source of iodine. Alnutrin also contains iodine, enough so that using it with a diet containing thyroid could result in more than the maximum safe amount. Excess dietary iodine has been implicated in both hypothroidism and hyperthyrodism.

As I said you should add taurine to even a whole body grind of rabbit. Adding B vitamin complex and vit E as @sophie1 suggests is fine as a "better safe than sorry" matter.

 

[losna]

 
Alnutrin should not be used with whole body grinds. Those grinds contain  the thyroid which is a rich source of iodine. Alnutrin also contains iodine, enough so that using it with a diet containing thyroid could result in more than the maximum safe amount. Excess dietary iodine has been implicated in both hypothroidism and hyperthyrodism.

As I said you should add taurine to even a whole body grind of rabbit. Adding B vitamin complex and vit E as @sophie1 suggests is fine as a "better safe than sorry" matter.

Really? But the description says this:

Alnutrin for Meat & Bone is designed for diets with bones.

Recipe for chicken or rabbit meat & bone with organs

Add together:
1 pack (or 4 g) of Alnutrin for Meat & Bone (Pre-packaged)

1/4 cup (or 60 g) of water, can be adjusted as needed.

Mix lightly, then add

1 lb (or 454 g) of ground raw chicken or rabbit meat & bones with organs (including liver)
Mix well. Divide into storage containers and freeze unused portion.

That looks like it is intended to be used with a whole ground animal, otherwise you'd think they'd specify beyond the vague term "organs including liver."

Ugh, this is all confusing. I thought I'd done enough research to know what I was doing, especially when my vets gave their approval of my feeding plan.

 

[mschauer]

Alnutrin for Meat & Bone is designed for diets with bones.

Recipe for chicken or rabbit meat & bone with organs

Add together:
1 pack (or 4 g) of Alnutrin for Meat & Bone (Pre-packaged)

1/4 cup (or 60 g) of water, can be adjusted as needed.

Mix lightly, then add

1 lb (or 454 g) of ground raw chicken or rabbit meat & bones with organs (including liver)
Mix well. Divide into storage containers and freeze unused portion.

That looks like it is intended to be used with a whole ground animal, otherwise you'd think they'd specify beyond the vague term "organs including liver."

In raw feeding jargon "meat/bones/organs" is not the same as "whole body" or "whole prey".  "Meat/bones/organs" means bone-in parts like chicken thighs plus liver and what ever other individual organs may be available which almost never includes thyroid. You can email Marta at knowwhatyoufeed.com. They are the manufacturers of Alnutrin and Marta is very good about responding to emails. Be sure to ask her specifically about the iodine concern. I've never asked her about this particular issue but there is this from catinfo.org:

 The thyroid gland of a cat's natural prey is a good source of iodine but when using chicken or turkey thighs - and, therefore, no thyroid gland - we need to add Morton's iodized Lite salt as a source of iodine.

...

If using ground rabbit, I would assume that the thyroid gland is included.  However, you may want to call your supplier and ask if this is the case.  If it is, I would not add the iodized Lite salt. 

 Ugh, this is all confusing. I thought I'd done enough research to know what I was doing, especially when my vets gave their approval of my feeding plan.

It can be confusing. Partly due to all the differing ways of feeding a raw diet and a lack of authoritative advice on the safe way to feed each of them. If you don't have access to a feline nutritionist (and most of us don't) the best you can do is what you are doing, ask questions. Unfortunately you'll sometimes get contradictory answers. You'll have to do lots of research to understand the contradictions. 

I don't feed whole prey or whole body. I feed meat and organs with supplements (the equivalent of Alnutrin). I think that is the easiest way to ensure they get the nutrition they need. There is information available from the USDA on the nutrient profiles of the animal parts like chicken thighs, liver, etc. that can be used to get an approximation of the nutritional value of what I feed. When you use whole prey or whole body there is always some question about the nutrient value of what you are feeding. I'm not saying I know there is anything wrong with approaches other than mine, I'm just explaining why I do it the way I do.

 

[losna]

Alright, I will email them and ask, thank you very much.

Is Marta at knowwhatyoufeed the email address I should use? Or is that the person I will get if I email the info at knowwhatyoufeed address that is on the website about contacting them?

 

[mschauer]

Just use the email at the web site. Marta is the only person who has ever responded to my questions but I don't know that she is always the only person to respond.

 

[losna]

Ok! I sent an email. Thank you!

If they say no, this is not for whole ground mixes, then I guess my husband will just have to deal with me mixing everything with no commercial steps. 

 

Thanks very much.

 

[mschauer]

I hope you mentioned that the ground mix you want to use includes thyroid.

 

[losna]

For the curious: Marta just replied saying that from what she knows, the whole point of whole prey is to not require supplements, so she doesn't think I need to add anything at all.

Oh - specific to the iodine question, she also said she's never seen a conclusive study about the nutritional value of whole prey, so can't answer that specific a question as she has no idea how much iodine it might have, but that their mix has .02mg iodine per 1 gram of supplement.

 

[mschauer]

 
For the curious: Marta just replied saying that from what she knows, the whole point of whole prey is to not require supplements, so she doesn't think I need to add anything at all.

Oh - specific to the iodine question, she also said she's never seen a conclusive study about the nutritional value of whole prey, so can't answer that specific a question as she has no idea how much iodine it might have, but that their mix has .02mg iodine per 1 gram of supplement.

Re: "...she's never seen a conclusive study about the nutritional value of whole prey..." 

That is really the crux of the matter. When feeding whole prey or whole body or when using the 80-10-5-5 guidelines you really don't know what you are feeding in a nutritional sense so it isn't possible to say with any certainty what if any supplements are needed. That's exactly why I have chosen to not feed that way. Using nutrient analyses as I do isn't perfect by any means. But at least it removes some of the uncertainty.