Difficulty With Rescue Kitten And Social Behavior With Older Cats.

[vitani]

Hi, around memorial day I saved an older kitten (vet guessed around 8 months at the time) from being killed by neighborhood foxes. The foxes had a litter of kits who were at hunting age and I came outside one night because of some terrible screams to find all 5 foxes in my yard trying to kill this cat so I chased them away and was able to quickly grab the cat because he was cornered (I know it was risky) and he allowed me to do so without a fight. He had injuries, mostly to his tail. When I brought him inside and took him in the bathroom and he settled down he immediately started purring and seemed so friendly that we thought he must've belonged to someone. Then we took him to the vet of course, treated injuries, gave rabies shot etc. We had no luck finding the owners so we decided to try to keep him. We got him neutered. Now I am thinking he was probably one of the ferals and that in some sort of "freak" accident maybe he decided to trust humans due to the situation we found him in? We have three existing cats. At first it seemed to go okay, but as he quickly became comfortable in our home he started pestering our other cats, particularly our senior cat who was most docile/weakest. The kitten would ambush him at the food bowl and follow him around nonstop and pick on him. Assumed he was trying to play and tried to avert his attention. Then one of my other cats went into lipidosis which was caused by another health issue and probably the stress of the kitten combined.
My aunt has a private cat rescue type situation and she has over a dozen cats currently. She agreed to take him so we could focus on our sick kitty. At first it seemed fine, but sure enough as he got comfortable he slowly started harassing her older cats. Again, he goes for the 3-4 weakest/oldest of the bunch. Males and females. They had tried averting his behavior to playing, putting him in a different room until he settles down, making a loud noise, scolding him with a firm "NO" and removing him from the situation, he doesn't even care if you squirt him with water at all either. They play with him constantly. Often times if you tell him no and try to remove him he will actually swat at/attack your hand or meow back at you in a defiant way. My aunt has had many, many cats over the years and is very experienced with them and she said she has never had a cat this "aggressive". Now they are about to try holistic remedies.
Even still, he is incredibly outgoing and playful. He seems to have very little fear of anything. He is not this way all the time. He can spend the whole day laying around/playing and being very sweet and will sleep on your lap and want to be held but then he gets in this "moods" and the negative behavior seems to be increasing a bit over time. I know its only been a couple of months and these things often take time but the poor older cats dont deserve this either. Does anyone have any solutions for this? We are kind of becoming at a loss of what to do aside from taking him to a vet that knows about cat behavior but we dont want him to have to be on sedatives or medications if at all possible. We considered that he may be best as an only cat but we would have to be very selective of who got him to make sure he was cared for properly and we will revisit that option as a last resort.

 

[Mystikal kitten]

Well, if you have a pic of the kitten. Will you please post it?
I love cats. Have 3 in my household already so I can't take anymore but I still like to see other cats.

 

[Columbine]

This little guy sure was lucky you found him! He sounds more dominant and stroppy teenager-ish than flat out aggressive to me. Definitely a hard situation to handle though. I think you're right that he'd do best either as an only cat, or maybe with one or two other very confident, laid back types.

One answer for the short term, if it were feasible, would be for him to be kept separated from the cats he picks on, maybe with one or two friends that he gets on with well. I appreciate that this isn't ideal, but it would at least be a way to keep everyone safe while your aunt works on this behaviour.

Have you tried him on a calming supplement (e.g. Composure or Zylkene)? That would be something to try before actual pharmaceutical medication, and it certainly couldn't hurt.

Is there any kind of pattern or trigger to his 'moods'? It might be worth keeping a diary of these incidents for a while, noting down what happened leading up to the negative behaviour. It's just possible there's a common factor there - maybe something happens to make him feel anxious or insecure, or even something that triggers a memory of his fox ordeal or some other bad experience outside. It's a longshot, for sure, but it's worth a try.

I'm so sorry I can't be of more help. Hopefully someone else will have some ideas

 

[jcat]

He sounds very much like our Mowgli, whose adoption contract stipulates that he be kept as an only cat and indoors only. Mowgli was presumably feral, found close to a feral colony at approximately 4 months. He was tamed and adopted out as a second cat, but lost that home due to aggression towards the first cat. Back at the shelter, he was put on Zylkene, homeopathic remedies, introduced to other cats using pheromones (Feliway), all to no avail. He's wonderful with us, and to other people after some initial hesitancy. If he sees another cat, he growls the entire time and wants to attack.

I've seen the same type of behavior from a few other cats at the shelter, usually starting at around 6 months, when they're reaching sexual maturity. Others (surrendered) begin exhibiting it towards their feline housemates at around 2, when social maturity makes them territorial.

These cats are placed in single-cat households with people willing and able to give them the time and attention singletons require. Some do very well in homes with dogs that like cats.

 

[StefanZ]

The biologists insists cats ARE solitarian. We know, its not entirely true, or perhaps just partly true.
But once in a while I suppose the scientists get right - some of the cats ARE solitarians...

I mean, his behavior isnt that peculiar, just more strongly expressed than with some others whom prefer to be solitarians.

Lets be happy he is human-friendly, although true scientifically solitarian.

Sometimes it works out with solitarian cats, they do accept a companion cat from the other gender. It may be true also with spayed / neutered.

 

[StefanZ]

In multiple cats households, if they arent natural friends, its very important they have each one place.
Different eating places, each own litter, if possible each own room.
Perhaps even some are closed into their room, while others may roam the apartament, and swich after several hours...

Rotating the access to the commonly used place, so to speak.

Btw, the same idea with cats allowed to go out, and they quarrelling on the revire with neigbour cats. The idea is to share the place in time; one goes out in the mornings, the other is let out in the evenings...

 

[Kieka]

His behavior appears to be directed only at other cats (by extension humans when they interfere with cat-cat interactions but that isn't his focus). Especially since it isn't initial introduction fear but actual domination behavior and working out pecking order type actions. It sounds like he is one of those Tom cats with a capital T despite being neutered.

Cats in nature do tend to be solitary creatures; especially males. Sometimes females will form colony groups and raise kittens together. But those usually only happen in areas where food is plentiful and survival is benefited by coexisting. Males who are unneutered usually just travel around to find females and don't settle too much outside of a broad territory with some overlap.

When we spay and neuter cats and provide them with a plentiful environment we see them slightly different because they don't have to compete and there isn't as much need for dominance. Even then, you may see cats in a household more as coexisting with each claiming a territory as theirs within the home as an extension of the natural behavior. It is actually fairly rare for cats to truly get bonded to another cat to a degree that they not only tolerate but seek out a specific cat. Most of us on here probably see it more than they general population just because we do tend to pay more attention to the cats personalities and individual needs. I know my little group is very close and have protected each other when intruders come in but my group has a definite alpha, protector and baby/doted on/princess vibe (I call them the old school mob boss, his muscle and his spoiled daughter sometimes, lol). In a group shelter environment (or foster) you typically see a little bit of coexistence and fear of the unknown in play. This boy though has no fear of the unknown and has the drive for territory and dominance of that territory that is typically seen in unneutered males.

I think he would be best as an only cat or in a household with just one or two passive subordinates. The problem with figuring out a home with submissive personalities is you wouldn't know it until after introductions. Really, if someone wanted to have other cats with him probably adding in a very mellow easy going kitten so it grows up seeing him as dominate would be the only effective method. I don't think there is much beyond medicating him (which I personally see as a disservice because there isn't anything wrong he just isn't the stereotypical pet neutered cat) to be done. You could give him his own area for the time being so he doesn't irritate the other cats and just screen carefully to find the right fit. There are plenty of people out there who do just want an only cat; I don't think I am hearing anything to say he needs a specific situation outside of being an only cat. I wouldn't be surprised if he did good with a puppy in the household as dogs are more inclined to follow the pack/dominant behaviors that he seems to display.

 

[vitani]

Thank you for all the feedback! It has been a few weeks but I just wanted to update on this cat. The pheromone and holistic remedies wasn't working and he was getting in alterations with the older cats and dominant/outgoing cats. We tried the taking him to the vet thing and they put him on an antidepressent and said to give it 4 to 6 weeks. It hasn't had any benefits so far (3 weeks in) and if anything it he has only gotten worse. We have to keep him separate from the senior cats with health issues especially because he will straight up challenge and attack them the most. He will "play with one of our female dominate cats sometimes but he usually tries to challenge her. He is tearing things up more and he has been seen humping blankets. He also is very food driven and scarfs down his meals in seconds.He has his own space in my dad's bedroom. In there with no other cats around he generally acts like a normal cat and seems completely unfazed with being confined to a bedroom when he is in there. We are to explore other options with the vet. Maybe even try to find a cat behavioral specialist or something. It seems hard to find a good rescue or shelter around here that is no kill and isn't always full. Everyone we know that is a cat person already has cats in their home too but we are definitely looking for someone who wants an only cat if thats what ends up being best for him. I have a friend with a farm and wondered if he could be a barn cat but I am afraid he will do this stuff to her other barn cats and would hate something bad to happen to him if we were to let him back outside so hopefully we can figure something else out. I just know that some of the other cats are miserable and I don't know if we can keep him locked up 24 7 for the rest of his life so I hope we can figure it out soon.

 

[Columbine]

I'm so sorry that you're no further forward with your boy. You're only 3 weeks in with the meds, so there's still a chance that things will improve.

Has your vet checked his hormone levels? It's just possible that his neutering wasn't successful (maybe because of an undescended testicle) - some of his behaviour is more consistent with that of a full tom. It's not very common for things to go wrong with neutering, but it does happen. Just a thought.

I really hope you find a solution soon, even if that solution is rehoming him. He's very lucky to have you - so many people would have given up by now. Do keep us updated on his progress.

 

[danteshuman]

I think you have a bully cat not a cat aggressive cat. If they are cat aggressive they attack EVERY cat. Bully cats are well just jerks to other cats and want to be the top cat in all things. I have a bully cat who I love .... and sometimes become so irritated with I just want to give him a bath! I don't think submissive cats are the answer because you are just handing him life long victims. However the 1 cat my punk does not bully is our semi-feral cat who occasionally beats him up a bit. So maybe try him with a calm dominate young healthy male? Also please give the prozac time. If I had my punk become a kitten again, I would put him on prozac so fast!!! He didn't calm down until he was almost 8 years old!

So what helped? Play therapy for the bully & victim. Letting my punk 'hunt' birds in the backyard helped tremendously. So try harness training your problem child. Extra food/litter places so he couldn't hog it all helped. Lots of high places and no dead ends for my victim cat helped (though my calm kitty prefers caves so I gave him caves.) Creating a safe zone for my victim cat/the one used as a living toy helped. Meaning my punk can not attack my calm kitty while he is in the same room as me or my punk will get a time out for a few minutes or a squirt from the water bottle. Please note I found it easier to redirect my punk with play when he gets all into hunting my calm kitty. Playing with my punk before I go to sleep so he won't spend the night harassing my calm kitty helps.

My punk is an insecure needy cat who follows me around EVERY where and loves to play. I love him to pieces. He is the reason my nick is Dante'sHuman because he thinks I am his (and Dante&Salem's human didn't fit ) Please give your problematic cat time. The poor guy has been uprooted in such a short time. That can be especially stressful if he had already bonded with you. I bet he misses you.

 

[vitani]

Another update on our problem kitty. The vet has him on the highest dose of Prozac and it hasn't made much of a difference. His problem behavior (bullying and challenging other cats and humans) seems to be a *little*bit less frequent but he still does it fairly often. We know it all takes time but the vet agrees it's not working the way they thought.
I am almost completely sure this is dominance at this point. He wants to be in control of everyone and everything including humans and so if we can just figure out how to suppress that instinct in him I believe he will fit in just fine. The vet wants to try gabapentin now too which I have mixed feelings about but willing to give it a try. Has anyone here ever had a cat on that medication? Maybe his behavior isn't all that wierd but for all the cats we've had over the years it's new to us mostly because he doesnt
repond to any sort of corrective behavior at all. The ferals they have had all have just been skittish with people and prefer eachothers company and that's fine. He sure has been a challenge so far!
Ideally we don't want him to be on a medication that will make him just indifferent/sedated and certainly not his whole life. The vet seems surprised that their first two ideas with meds isn't fixing the problem like they were so sure it would so this next plan is to try to calm him just enough to correct his behavior and then after a while he will get used to his corrected behavior and we will wean him off of it. I am honestly not confident that this new med she wants to introduce will help and also not give him unwanted side effects but she is the medical professional and we have trusted this veterinary facility for many years now and they have been great.
We certainly don't expect perfection, have dealt with many kitties and they don't all get along. Again, I believe if we can control his drive for dominance it will make the issue super manageable it's just figuring out what will help him not feel the need to act this way.I wouldn't have done anything differently if I knew this when I saved him but I also suspect that maybe the foxes weren't the ones that started the fight but they certainly were going to finish it. This little booger seems to think he is much bigger and stronger than the 8 pounds that he is.

 

[Columbine]

I'm so sorry things are still so difficult - it can't be easy for any of you (humans or kitties)

Is your vet suggesting gabapentin instead of Prozac, or in addition to it? And what have you tried so far? (I can only see Prozac mentioned here). I don't have experience with cats on meds of this type, but I have a lot of experience with psych meds myself. What I can tell you is that finding the right medication (or combination of them) isn't always easy, and it can take quite a few tries to hit on the right one. Trust your instincts first and foremost, but don't give up on meds just because the first one didn't work out. The right medication shouldn't leave him doped or sedated - just calmer and less in everyone's faces. Wanting to dominate absolutely everyone to this degree is NOT normal cat behaviour (at least, in my experience ). I'm just sorry I don't have any suggestions or solutions for you.

 

[vitani]

The vet wants to try them together for a while, he has been on the Prozac for several weeks. I can't remember he name of the first one they tried as I don' have the bottle of it but they said it was their go to medication. Each one they said give 4-6 weeks but check in with them weekly and they thought it was odd that it didn't seem to be affecting him even in the slightest and understand that due to the other cats in the situation we unfortunately can't just wait it out for months since he is causing stress to other cats that cannot defend themselves. Other than the senior rescue cats there is also disabled ones that have deformed legs and all that.

Basically as an example is that sometimes he is in his own bedroom alone. I came in the house to visit the other day so I go in there to see him and he stands with two paws on my chest and greets me,purrs and I pet him. This goes on for a few minutes and then he opens his mouth and keeps it open and starts biting on my hand (not hard) and I pull my hand back and just say a firm 'no'. He puts his ears back and meows. He continues to try to initiate interaction with me but now there is no pets or sweetness he will just keep his mouth open and come at you to try to bite and scratch. It looks like playing at first but the more he does it the harder he bites and the more he swats and scratches. He does this with everyone. If you remove yourself from the situation he will either follow you or go after other cats. He does this frequently but not every single time.

When you let him out of the bedroom he will either walk around and do his own thing, he loves watching birds and playing, most of the time he is on the move but sometimes just lays down and hangs out for a bit and get up and bother cats eventually. Or he will come right out and go after one of the cats, cornering them and won't leave them alone. Some of them will defend themselves and straight up slap him and he does not care. But then a couple of them he actually tries to lick/clean even after a fight and I know at least ne will actually let him.
Often when you remove him from the situation or tell him no he will give this low drawn out meow and he will swat at you (even goes for the face) and then go after furniture. He doesn't care about being sprayed with water. He doesn't really like when you clap your hands so that will stop him when he is ambushing but then he just goes right back to doing it. We have tried positive reinforcement like praise and pets/treats when he is being good but he goes back and forth within minutes so this is difficult too.you will be in the middle of rewarding/praising his good behavior and he will go back to being bad.

Our first thought was he needed lots of mental stimulation and playing so we try to wear him out(still do)with that but he seems to have the same amount of energy either way and often results in him getting extra wound up and harder to calm down.

 

[catpack]

Have you consulted with a Veterinary behaviorist, not just a GP veterinarian?

Have you considered trying him in a foster home as an only pet?

 

[vitani]

We are trying to locate a cat behavioral specialist in harford county, maryland.

We absolutely would foster him in a home with no other pets but we do not know a single person who is a cat lover that doesn't already have cats. I had contacted a few rescues/no kills and they said they were full but will continue trying. I am hesitant to say that anyone would want a cat that has rude behavior and they also can't have any other animals for his lifetime when there are so many well behaved cats who need homes but if we could find someone who would would be willing and eqipped then I know that would be the best for everyone including him and we have been trying.