Determining Kittens colouring!

[dg25]

Hi there!
I’m quite new to breeding and am trying to fully understand their genetics, I think I have a good idea of it, but I’m not completely sure.
I’m planning on bringing in a golden shaded chinchilla persian into my small breeding program. I plan to breed her with my doll faced seal point himalayan. From what I understand is that in order to get colour point both parents need to have colour point or in this case the golden has to carry CP, right? I’m mostly breeding them in hopes for golden shaded which i’m pretty sure is a dominant trait? I’m just wondering, if the golden doesn’t carry CP what will the kittens end up like? And if she does carry it how likely will it be that they will be either golden or pointed? Is seal lynx point also a possibility?
I appreciate any feedback! Thank you! Stay well <3

 

[posiepurrs]

Are you bringing a chinchilla golden or a shaded golden in to breed? There is a difference. A chinchilla has less tipping than a shaded. Please be aware that the majority of silver and goldens now carry the colorpoint numbers as breeders used the colorpoints to bring size to the shaded and chins. I breed silvers and goldens and the majority of my cats have colorpoint numbers.
In the years I have been breeding I have never gotten appointed kitten, but it isn't impossible from what I have been told. If your boy is seal point then I believe that is the only color point you could get since seal is dominant. Genetics isn't exactly my strong suit. If I may ask, why are you using a pet quality stud? It is very difficult to try to reach breed standard when you are using pet quality cats to breed. Do you have the rights to breed your male (or even the female when you get her)? If not the kittens can't be registered - at least in the CFA.

 

[lutece]

Colorpoint is a simple autosomal recessive. If a female carries colorpoint and is bred to a pointed male, each kitten will have a 50% chance of being pointed (in this case, lynx point). However, if the female doesn't carry colorpoint, none of the kittens will be pointed.

It's easy to do a DNA test for colorpoint. The easiest and quickest way is to use UC Davis Veterinary Genetics Lab. They are still open and processing tests. A single color test is $40 and all you need is a regular cotton swab.

Find Tests | Veterinary Genetics Laboratory

vgl.ucdavis.edu

"Colorpoint numbers" in Persians just mean that there was a known pointed ancestor somewhere in the past... it doesn't mean that the cat actually carries colorpoint. DNA testing is the best way to find out.

Edited to add: While you are at it, you might also want to DNA test the golden female to see if she carries solid (non-agouti). If she carries solid, you could also get solid black or seal point kittens.

Golden is believed to be due to the effect of a gene known as "Wide band" (Wb). The specific gene mutation for Wb hasn't yet been identified (to my knowledge), so there is no genetic test yet. Wide banding isn't exactly dominant... it appears to be polygenetic. A golden is genetically a brown tabby, plus the effect of multiple copies of Wb. A cat with just one copy of Wb would be expected to look intermediate in color between a regular brown tabby, and a golden.

So if you breed a golden shaded female to a seal point male, you can expect your non-pointed kittens to be brown tabbies with some wide banding. From Jayne Wood's article (below), "True Goldens are only produced from Silver and Gold matings. Offspring from other matings will generally lean toward more closely resembling brown tabbies."

Here are some web sites with color genetics information that you may find useful:

Basic Color Genetics of Silver and Gold Persians (Jayne Wood, Alchemist Persians)

Welcome saveoursilvers.com - FastDomain.com

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www.saveoursilvers.com

Goldens (Sundust British Shorthairs)

genetics

The earliest documentation of silvers shows “Chinnie,” born in 1882 in England. While no pictures of her have been found, there was one of her famous grandson, “Silver Lambkin.” Some of the...

www.sundust-cats.com

Silver and Gold (Sarah Hartwell, Messybeast web site)

INHIBITOR GENE: SILVER AND GOLD: SMOKE, SHADED AND TIPPED CATS

 

[lutece]

Summary version, "what would you get from breeding seal point male to shaded golden female"?

If female does NOT carry colorpoint or solid:

• All kittens would be expected to be brown tabby with some wide banding.

If female carries colorpoint, but not solid:

• Brown tabby with some wide banding (50% chance for each kitten)
• Seal lynx point (50% chance for each kitten)

If female carries solid, but does not carry colorpoint:

• Brown tabby with some wide banding (50% chance for each kitten)
• Solid black (50% chance for each kitten)

If female carries colorpoint AND solid:

• Brown tabby with some wide banding (25% chance for each kitten)
• Seal lynx point (25% chance for each kitten)
• Solid black (25% chance for each kitten)
• Seal point (25% chance for each kitten)

I'm ignoring dilute here... both parents would have to carry dilute in order to produce any dilute kittens.

If you eventually want to produce golden Persians in the future, you would want to intensify the wide banding factor by producing kittens with multiple copies of Wb. Practically speaking, you would either plan to breed the offspring of this mating to another silver or golden cat, or line breed on the shaded golden female, in order to double up on Wb.

 

[posiepurrs]

You heard it from someone smarter than I! One thing though, with silver/golden breeding, you can still get brown tabbies. I have had 5 out of several breedings.

 

[lutece]

with silver/golden breeding, you can still get brown tabbies. I have had 5 out of several breedings.

It makes sense that shaded parents could produce some brown tabbies... some kittens would inherit less Wb than other kittens. Were the parents chinchilla or shaded? Did your brown tabby kittens have some wide banding effects, like these kittens from the Sundust web site I linked above? I'd love to see pictures

 

[dg25]

Are you bringing a chinchilla golden or a shaded golden in to breed? There is a difference. A chinchilla has less tipping than a shaded. Please be aware that the majority of silver and goldens now carry the colorpoint numbers as breeders used the colorpoints to bring size to the shaded and chins. I breed silvers and goldens and the majority of my cats have colorpoint numbers.
In the years I have been breeding I have never gotten appointed kitten, but it isn't impossible from what I have been told. If your boy is seal point then I believe that is the only color point you could get since seal is dominant. Genetics isn't exactly my strong suit. If I may ask, why are you using a pet quality stud? It is very difficult to try to reach breed standard when you are using pet quality cats to breed. Do you have the rights to breed your male (or even the female when you get her)? If not the kittens can't be registered - at least in the CFA.

Thank you for your response!! The golden female is definitely chinchilla, from what I understand it’s the green eyes and black paws that sets it apart from a golden shaded? As well as that’s what the breeder has told me she is.

 

[dg25]

Colorpoint is a simple autosomal recessive. If a female carries colorpoint and is bred to a pointed male, each kitten will have a 50% chance of being pointed (in this case, lynx point). However, if the female doesn't carry colorpoint, none of the kittens will be pointed.

It's easy to do a DNA test for colorpoint. The easiest and quickest way is to use UC Davis Veterinary Genetics Lab. They are still open and processing tests. A single color test is $40 and all you need is a regular cotton swab.

http://[URL]https://vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/cat/

[/URL]
"Colorpoint numbers" in Persians just mean that there was a known pointed ancestor somewhere in the past... it doesn't mean that the cat actually carries colorpoint. DNA testing is the best way to find out.

Edited to add: While you are at it, you might also want to DNA test the golden female to see if she carries solid (non-agouti). If she carries solid, you could also get solid black or seal point kittens.

Golden is believed to be due to the effect of a gene known as "Wide band" (Wb). The specific gene mutation for Wb hasn't yet been identified (to my knowledge), so there is no genetic test yet. Wide banding isn't exactly dominant... it appears to be polygenetic. A golden is genetically a brown tabby, plus the effect of multiple copies of Wb. A cat with just one copy of Wb would be expected to look intermediate in color between a regular brown tabby, and a golden.

So if you breed a golden shaded female to a seal point male, you can expect your non-pointed kittens to be brown tabbies with some wide banding. From Jayne Wood's article (below), "True Goldens are only produced from Silver and Gold matings. Offspring from other matings will generally lean toward more closely resembling brown tabbies."

Here are some web sites with color genetics information that you may find useful:

Basic Color Genetics of Silver and Gold Persians (Jayne Wood, Alchemist Persians)

http://[URL]http://www.saveoursilvers.com/genetics.html

[/URL]

Goldens (Sundust British Shorthairs)

http://[URL]http://www.sundust-cats.com/genetics.html

[/URL]

Silver and Gold (Sarah Hartwell, Messybeast web site)

http://[URL]http://messybeast.com/chinchillas.htm

[/URL]

Thank you for your response, I will definitely check those articles out. I don’t know if I was clear on the op but she’s a chinchilla if that makes a difference? Is it quite easy to tell apart a brown tabby with Wb to a golden shaded? Or is it a big difference or the same thing? My seal point has very light green eyes with a little tiny bit of bluish green in the centre, i’ve been told by one breeder that he could be mink, does this have any effect on the outcome of the kittens? The female has very green eyes and black paws and the breeder has told me she is chinchilla. Is it possible for the golden to carry several copies of the Wb?
I hope this made sense, their genetics confuse me quite a bit so I really appreciate your response!

 

[dg25]

You heard it from someone smarter than I! One thing though, with silver/golden breeding, you can still get brown tabbies. I have had 5 out of several breedings.

Oh wow! Really? I would love to see any pictures you have of them!

 

[lutece]

Thank you for your response!! The golden female is definitely chinchilla, from what I understand it’s the green eyes and black paws that sets it apart from a golden shaded? As well as that’s what the breeder has told me she is.

The difference between shaded and chinchilla is the amount of black tipping on the hairs. Shaded cats have more tipping on the hairs. Chinchillas have almost no tipping and appear almost white (or gold, in the case of a chinchilla golden). Do you have a picture of the female?

 

[dg25]

Summary version, "what would you get from breeding seal point male to shaded golden female"?

If female does NOT carry colorpoint or solid:

• All kittens would be expected to be brown tabby with some wide banding.

If female carries colorpoint, but not solid:

• Brown tabby with some wide banding (50% chance for each kitten)
• Seal lynx point (50% chance for each kitten)

If female carries solid, but does not carry colorpoint:

• Brown tabby with some wide banding (50% chance for each kitten)
• Solid black (50% chance for each kitten)

If female carries colorpoint AND solid:

• Brown tabby with some wide banding (25% chance for each kitten)
• Seal lynx point (25% chance for each kitten)
• Solid black (25% chance for each kitten)
• Seal point (25% chance for each kitten)

I'm ignoring dilute here... both parents would have to carry dilute in order to produce any dilute kittens.

If you eventually want to produce golden Persians in the future, you would want to intensify the wide banding factor by producing kittens with multiple copies of Wb. Practically speaking, you would either plan to breed the offspring of this mating to another silver or golden cat, or line breed on the shaded golden female, in order to double up on Wb.

Thank you so much for your response! It helped a lot! I’ve asked the breeder if she carries solid, i’m pretty certain she does carry colour point. Does it matter how far down the lines the colour point was introduced in her pedigree or is it always relevant?

 

[lutece]

Thank you so much for your response! It helped a lot! I’ve asked the breeder if she carries solid, i’m pretty certain she does carry colour point. Does it matter how far down the lines the colour point was introduced in her pedigree or is it always relevant?

If she had a colorpoint parent (or if she had a previous litter and produced a colorpoint kitten), you know that she carries colorpoint.
If the colorpoint ancestor is a grandparent or farther back in the pedigree, you don't know for sure unless you do a DNA test.

 

[dg25]

The difference between shaded and chinchilla is the amount of black tipping on the hairs. Shaded cats have more tipping on the hairs. Chinchillas have almost no tipping and appear almost white (or gold, in the case of a chinchilla golden). Do you have a picture of the female?

Yes, here are some pictures! Hopefully the breeder doesn’t mind... as a kitten she was much darker. I’ll try and find a picture, she’s 6mo in these pics.

 

[dg25]

Yes, here are some pictures! Hopefully the breeder doesn’t mind... as a kitten she was much darker. I’ll try and find a picture, she’s 6mo in these pics. View attachment 331363View attachment 331364

When I asked her what the kittens would come out like she said, some seal pointed, some golden shaded, seal lynx point, chinchilla point, and golden point. Are some of these the same thing? Does chinchilla point mean it’s a chinchilla but carries point or it’s a chinchilla point? If that’s a thing?

 

[lutece]

When I asked her what the kittens would come out like she said, some seal pointed, some golden shaded, seal lynx point, chinchilla point, and golden point. Are some of these the same thing? Does chinchilla point mean it’s a chinchilla but carries point or it’s a chinchilla point? If that’s a thing?

Chinchilla / shaded point means a colorpointed cat that also has wide banding (black color restricted to just the tips of the hairs).

I'm not a Persian breeder, and the pictures aren't super clear... but from the pictures, I would say that girl looks more shaded than chinchilla. Also she's quite light in color for a golden and the tipping looks grayish, is she dilute (blue)?

 

[cataholic07]

Yah the pictures to me she doesn't look like a golden chinchilla. Almost more like a silver.. Has the breeder color tested her?

 

[lutece]

Yah the pictures to me she doesn't look like a golden chinchilla. Almost more like a silver.. Has the breeder color tested her?

She could be a blue golden, they are a lot less reddish than a black golden. Or she could be a tarnished silver, I guess.

To my knowledge there is no DNA test for the silver gene (Inhibitor gene), but it is possible to test for dilute (blue).

 

[dg25]

Yes, here are some pictures! Hopefully the breeder doesn’t mind... as a kitten she was much darker. I’ll try and find a picture, she’s 6mo in these pics. View attachment 331363View attachment 331364

When I asked her what the kittens would come out like she said, some seal pointed, some golden shaded, seal lynx point, chinchilla point,

Chinchilla / shaded point means a colorpointed cat that also has wide banding (black color restricted to just the tips of the hairs).

I'm not a Persian breeder, and the pictures aren't super clear... but from the pictures, I would say that girl looks more shaded than chinchilla. Also she's quite light in color for a golden and the tipping looks grayish, is she dilute (blue)?

Yeah I think the picture quality is making her look more silver then gold, here’s a pic of her as a baby. The breeder also told me she has no solid and no colour point in her pedigree.

 

[dg25]

Yah the pictures to me she doesn't look like a golden chinchilla. Almost more like a silver.. Has the breeder color tested her?

Here’s her as a baby, i think the pictures make her look a lot more silver and lighter than she actually is. From her pics and video she looks very light cream or light golden? Definitely not silver though, but I can see why you might think that. I’ll try and get better recent pics. She also said that she doesn’t carry any solid, or cp.

 

[dg25]

Here’s her as a baby, i think the pictures make her look a lot more silver and lighter than she actually is. From her pics and video she looks very light cream or light golden? Definitely not silver though, but I can see why you might think that. I’ll try and get better recent pics. She also said that she doesn’t carry any solid, or cp.