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I agree with you Loveysmummy. it's just so darn cruel!!!!
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Debarking a dog
- Thread starter sarahp
- Start Date
Sorry, I deleted my last post as I didn't want to come across as overly militant about this subject, because I feel so strongly about items like this...
But I hear you....People who go through with this procedure think "well, no, my dog barks ALOT"...I say (or rather sigh) to them that yes, you may think that your dog barks alot but eliminating this feature is simply a product of your own convenience..
I have dealt with some SERIOUSLY neurotic dogs...abused, bored, anxious, untrained, you name it..and some of those dogs do BARK! Even dogs who have been exposed to a healthy environment bark excessively for me...
But certain dogs and certain breeds have this tendency.
If you can't handle it or endure it, don't own a dog. Period.
But I hear you....People who go through with this procedure think "well, no, my dog barks ALOT"...I say (or rather sigh) to them that yes, you may think that your dog barks alot but eliminating this feature is simply a product of your own convenience..
I have dealt with some SERIOUSLY neurotic dogs...abused, bored, anxious, untrained, you name it..and some of those dogs do BARK! Even dogs who have been exposed to a healthy environment bark excessively for me...
But certain dogs and certain breeds have this tendency.
If you can't handle it or endure it, don't own a dog. Period.
She wouldn't be fined if her dog was inside the house.
If her dog is outside the house and left to bark, again, she should not live with a dog..
Debarking is horrible and horribly cruel. Period. I feel strongly about it too. Loveysmummy!
And i have two very vocal breeds. A basset hound, and perhaps the most vocal of them all IMO, a Siberian Husky.
Do I get annoyed with them sometimes? YES! But oh well i knew what I was getting into. And for the most part my girls are good girls and dont get to horrible. But sometimes when they have been in thier crates for a while they get ansy and demand to speak they get a hush, and when they calm down i reward them and let them out. This seems to work well.But sometimes they just wanna talk.
I always laugh when I am at the store or walking Isis, and people just aww ot and hoot and say they would LOVE to have a husky, and is she going to have pups (yes someday but we wanna finnish up her working dog title first) I look at them flatly and say "Do you want a dog who will dig holes in your yard and ruin it? Are you prepared to have a 7 foot fence, AND line it with something sturdy on the bottom? Are you prepared to have alot of things destroyed if you allow the dog to be bored? And most of all are you willing to listen to ALOT of vocalaztion that is High pitch and not at all the usual dog bark?" At that point i am usually surprised if they are still listening and havent run away in horror. if they are still listening and say yes, lol than i tell them the good points of the Siberian Husky and insruct them on where to go. for more info. Huskys are great dogs but not fotr everyone LOl just like any dog.
Bottom line. DOGS BARK! Its what they DO!
I was once told alot of dogs from Japan are debarked....but i havent researched it to say if the comment is valid or not.
And i have two very vocal breeds. A basset hound, and perhaps the most vocal of them all IMO, a Siberian Husky.
Do I get annoyed with them sometimes? YES! But oh well i knew what I was getting into. And for the most part my girls are good girls and dont get to horrible. But sometimes when they have been in thier crates for a while they get ansy and demand to speak they get a hush, and when they calm down i reward them and let them out. This seems to work well.But sometimes they just wanna talk.
I always laugh when I am at the store or walking Isis, and people just aww ot and hoot and say they would LOVE to have a husky, and is she going to have pups (yes someday but we wanna finnish up her working dog title first) I look at them flatly and say "Do you want a dog who will dig holes in your yard and ruin it? Are you prepared to have a 7 foot fence, AND line it with something sturdy on the bottom? Are you prepared to have alot of things destroyed if you allow the dog to be bored? And most of all are you willing to listen to ALOT of vocalaztion that is High pitch and not at all the usual dog bark?" At that point i am usually surprised if they are still listening and havent run away in horror. if they are still listening and say yes, lol than i tell them the good points of the Siberian Husky and insruct them on where to go. for more info. Huskys are great dogs but not fotr everyone LOl just like any dog.
Bottom line. DOGS BARK! Its what they DO!
I was once told alot of dogs from Japan are debarked....but i havent researched it to say if the comment is valid or not.
Her dog is in the house, not left outside except for playtime and walks. We are not talking about a dog who barks at squirrels and the mailman and people walking in front of the house- this is a dog who barked constantly just to bark, until she was so hoarse that you simply couldn't hear her anymore, though she was continuing to "bark" , and then the next day, start again. This was not normal behavior- there was something wrong with this dog mentally, and she could not get her past it. The people who run my dog forum are rescuers and many members are breeders- no one disagreed with what she finally had to do. Her dog can still make sounds, just not loud barking. It was a very difficult decision for her to make.Originally Posted by Loveysmummy
She wouldn't be fined if her dog was inside the house.
If her dog is outside the house and left to bark, again, she should not live with a dog..
No, I don't like it either, I think that for 99.999999% of the times it happens, it is wrong. I don't like people taking the easy way out and denying their dog normal speech; however, this was an exception, and I was just pointing out that rarely, there is a reason.
And yes, (I went back and checked), it can be medically necessary, as excessive barking (especially to that extreme) can cause throat damage.
Well, admittedly, I have never heard of such a severe case. I apologize if this is as indeed a neurological issue as you stated..
However, I still can't see how debarking would really solve the issue of the throat damage...(as the dog would still be barking but it wouldn't be audible human ears...)
I would love to see the source of the throat damage issue that you checked out...
All in all, if this is the case, I do feel sorry for both owner and dog..
However, I still can't see how debarking would really solve the issue of the throat damage...(as the dog would still be barking but it wouldn't be audible human ears...)
I would love to see the source of the throat damage issue that you checked out...
All in all, if this is the case, I do feel sorry for both owner and dog..
I checked another post on the forum (couldn't find the one I was looking for), but found one by one of the owners/rescuers of the site, and she had a similar problem, her vet told her she was going to have to do something to correct it, because it was beginning to cause throat damage. Fortunately, she was able to get it under control with her dog, but debarking was the last ditch option. This was the 2nd case discussed where throat damage was occurring, but 2 separate people. Sorry, can't give you anymore than that
, if you can find something, I would be interested, especially if the vets were wrong- then they both need to find new vets (this is not sarcasm, I just don't think I'm going to have the time to research it- just telling you what problems had been discussed on the forum).
This is a forum that, for the most part, also abhorrs ear cropping and is divided on tail cropping, admittedly- except for the owners of the site- they don't support any kind of cosmetic surgery for dogs at all.Here's a link, and here's a quote:
This is a forum that, for the most part, also abhorrs ear cropping and is divided on tail cropping, admittedly- except for the owners of the site- they don't support any kind of cosmetic surgery for dogs at all.Here's a link, and here's a quote:
The link:http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/dpi/nrenin...256DEA0027A696
Having trouble editing my post. Here it is:
The link:http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/dpi/nrenin...256DEA0027A696
Well, looks like my edit came through
, here is one more that sums up both sides of the debate, (no middle ground discussion really, though): Dog Article courtesy of I-Love-Dogs.com
http://www.i-love-dogs.com/dogsartic...ng-Debate.html
http://www.i-love-dogs.com/dogsartic...">Dogs</a>.com(required author info)
I couldn't find anything by a vet though- mostly just opinions.
http://www.i-love-dogs.com/dogsartic...ng-Debate.html
http://www.i-love-dogs.com/dogsartic...">Dogs</a>.com(required author info)
I couldn't find anything by a vet though- mostly just opinions.
I think debarking is for lazy people. Your dog should have a good udnerstanding of when it's okay to bark, and that when you say enough, you mean for the barking to stop. There's no reason why a dog should not stop barking unless you as the trainer aren't being consistent.
Also, I don't see how it's anymore justified if you have a neurotic dog who has a mental problem, be it anxiety or what have you. Debarking doesn't stop the dog from actually trying to bark, and if a dog has a mental problem so bad it causes it to bark 24/7 is the dog really going to lead a very happy full life if it feels the need to bark all the time?
Also, I don't see how it's anymore justified if you have a neurotic dog who has a mental problem, be it anxiety or what have you. Debarking doesn't stop the dog from actually trying to bark, and if a dog has a mental problem so bad it causes it to bark 24/7 is the dog really going to lead a very happy full life if it feels the need to bark all the time?
Her dog was an abused rescue, and while I haven't found the specific reason it was causing her some kind of throat damage, everything was tried that could be tried, but they had to stop it before she did more damage, and then continue to work with her. I remember she had scarring from her former owner's use of a shock collar, perhaps that had something to do with it, maybe they also felt they had to do it so she could stay in the home and be rehabilitated. Apparently, she is doing much better now, and is a good pet. It wasn't an overnight decision by any means.
I agreed with everyone that it isn't a desirable thing, that it shouldn't be done unless you have a really extreme reason (having exhausted all other possiblities- with the proper time and effort and professionals) to have happen, but in an extreme case like hers, possibly necessary to give the dog a chance for a decent life.
Okay, got the scoop: Excessive barking can cause throat damage, debarking won't help
-Most vets will only do it if the dog is in danger of being pts, as in being declared a nuisance dog.
I agreed with everyone that it isn't a desirable thing, that it shouldn't be done unless you have a really extreme reason (having exhausted all other possiblities- with the proper time and effort and professionals) to have happen, but in an extreme case like hers, possibly necessary to give the dog a chance for a decent life.
Okay, got the scoop: Excessive barking can cause throat damage, debarking won't help
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poor thing!
what breed is the dog ??
A Boxer, if I remember correctly, perhaps a mix- usually a pretty quiet dog-high energy, but not usually a barker from what I've been reading- ours rarely, if ever barks (she is also a rescue, but except for her heart condition, we can't figure out why someone would have given her up; she's great with my now 3 yr old- My husband was wondering if she could for about a month after we got
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Oh I see. I don't know how much boxers bark as I have no expierience with them. It's just sad she had to make that decision.
I think in some very rare cases de-barking is necessary. There may also be a good reason to declaw. Yes, ive said it. Why?
Im on another cat forum, and I was reading up an old post where one of the members HAD to declaw her Devon Rex because he was scratching to the point of mutilating himself. It was not a cosmetic issue, but a serious, health and well being issue.
On another subject, I also think there are valid reasons to remove dewclaws, crop or dock. There is a member on my dog forum who had to crop her spaniels ears. Mind you it was not a fashionable crop, more like an amputation, but it was necessary for the health of the dogs. There have been numerous dogs wh have needed there tail amputated because of numerous breaks and injuries.
Im on another cat forum, and I was reading up an old post where one of the members HAD to declaw her Devon Rex because he was scratching to the point of mutilating himself. It was not a cosmetic issue, but a serious, health and well being issue.
On another subject, I also think there are valid reasons to remove dewclaws, crop or dock. There is a member on my dog forum who had to crop her spaniels ears. Mind you it was not a fashionable crop, more like an amputation, but it was necessary for the health of the dogs. There have been numerous dogs wh have needed there tail amputated because of numerous breaks and injuries.
My mom's Border Collie Ben (RB) was debarked - NOT by her, by the people she got him from. I don't remember the details, but he was unwanted for some reason, like there was something wrong with him? So she got him for free even tho he was purebred. But yeah, they had him debarked as a puppy. When he got really excited tho, he could give this raspy half-bark. We'd always get so excited when he barked, cos it was such a rare occasion when he'd be able to actually make noise
De-barking makes me so angry tho - it's just lazy human beings not bothering to train the dog properly. It's disgusting and it should be illegal.
softpaws? medication?
can you tell me what GOOD, MEDICAL reason there would be to remove a dog's voicebox so he cant express himself anymore?
I believe the reasons have all been mentioned. Even if you dont believe it, debarking is not all about laziness and lack of training. While it may be considered cruel, very rarely it is very necessary. In the case stated before, about the dog who had to be debarked because he was injuring himself, I definately see this as good reason to debark, if of course all other methods have been exhausted. Usually with a dog like this its more of a mental thing, and when they hear themselves bark they get even more riled up, and keep on barking until they are actually hurting themselves. You cut off the bark the dog no longer hears his big bad voice and eventually stops.
As for the Devon Rex, everything was also exhausted. He would manage to rip off a few of those Soft Claws and things were actually worse with them than without, because when he did manage to remove them all he** broke lose and he did so much damage to himself it was absolutely horrible. The owners did not want him on medications all his life, as they felt it would lessen the quality of life.
BTW the cat is actually more tranquil ( though I am aware in most cases it is the opposite)
Edited to add: I think its a bit harsh to say that everyone who declaws/debarks is lazy and unwilling to train
Yes! That was what happened- I was racking my brain, trying to think of why the debarking stopped her dog from injuring her throat further, and last night I finally remembered- she was getting a "payoff" from barking constantly ( a habit aquired because of the abusive home), they couldn't use the no bark collar because of the abuse, the training didn't work, and she finally stopped trying to bark all the time, because there was no "payoff", and she was rehabbed into being a nice, well behaved pet.
Cropping and docking are purely cosmetic procedures, if a dog had to have their ears cropped at a later date, due to, I'm guessing chronic ear infections? that is a totally different situation, same as if a dog injured their tail and had to get it amputated. These situations are by no means comparable to the practice of cropping and docking while puppies for physical appearance
