Could Use Some Advice With Raw Feeding

[coffeeharlot]

She likes to do that for sure, literally and figuratively! This is why cats are an all or nothing thing; never met anyone middle of the road on them.

Aww, poor kitty! At least it was in plain sight and not hidden in the darkest reaches under the bed? (or in the closet, behind the washer...)

 

[coffeeharlot]

So, it appears that I'm back at square one...

After I had made a new batch of food, Z was doing awesome. When that started to run out, I made another batch and she's been doing fine on that for the last 2.5-3 weeks. I made a rather large batch, enough to last her about a month, so this all pertains to a single batch.

Yesterday morning, I went to scoop her litterbox and found some vomit, so I'm guessing she threw up her dinner sometime in the night and then I saw her vomiting her breakfast. I whipped out an emergency can of wet food for a small meal then and for her "lunch" and she kept that down fine. I thought maybe something had gone off on the pack I had defrosted in the fridge. Mixed a little canned in with a fresh-from-the-freezer pack for her dinner (thawed enough for her meal in warm water) and was treated to her yowls of dismay as she vomited dinner a couple of hours later.

I'm kind of at my wit's end. I don't understand how/why she does fine for a few weeks and then suddenly this becomes a problem. I've had to toss out so much and start over, only to have this become an issue again. I can't afford to feed her commercial raw for any length of time and ordering from somewhere like HT just isn't a viable option.

Not sure if this is just a vent or a plea for help, but if anyone has any ideas, I'm all ears! I guess I could go out and grab her some pork to try, but I'm sort of leery to give her anything I don't know for sure won't make her sick now.

 

[orange&white]

This is a real mystery. Maybe a prebiotic would help (or combination prebiotic/probiotic).

 

[coffeeharlot]

It really is, and while I normally like a good mystery, this one is just too frustrating.

I'll look into a pre/probiotic. I only know of fortiflora, so I'll do some Googling to see what else is out there.

 

[orange&white]

My only other thought it that it's something with the supplements. You've tested her with just chicken and with just liver. I wouldn't think chicken bones would be an issue either.

Most of the supplements are water soluble so any excesses should be excreted in the urine. I wouldn't want to go without supplements permanently (though some raw feeders don't use them) but you might try a small batch without them.

 

[coffeeharlot]

Wouldn't it have taken less time than 3 weeks for the supplements to become an issue though? I think I have some chicken thighs for me in the freezer, so I could definitely grind one up and see what happens. I'd be worried about not giving her any supplements long term though.

 

[orange&white]

I don't know about time-length to reaction. It just seems like if both her raw and canned foods are chicken and she doesn't vomit when feeding canned, or just plain pieces of chicken and liver, then that only leaves one of the supplements.

I wouldn't want to exclude supplements long-term either.

Some cats are sensitive to fish...so I might suspect the fish oil first. Does her canned food have any fish ingredients?

We have a member here whose cat is extremely allergic to fish, but she found a micro-distilled fish oil which removes 100% of the fish proteins and leaves only a very purified oil. @valentine....can you post the brand you are using?

 

[orange&white]

valentine319 Sorry....didn't flag the right name.

 

[coffeeharlot]

Oh, I agree that there's got to be something somewhere that's the issue and the supplements are a likely culprit. Just seems odd it'd take so long to build up to that point, especially if you take into account loss of nutrients with the freeze/thaw and all that. Since I was concerned about the fish oil anyhow, I haven't been adding extra after the 2 week mark that catnutrition.org suggests (can't remember if Pierson suggests this as well). I did add extra Taurine since I had planned on the batch lasting her at least the month, though. Hrm...

Yep, some of her canned foods contain fish and they've never been an issue.

I just need to win the lottery so I can get a giant freezer and order a massive 200lb box from HT

 

[Tobermory]

I’m beginning to wonder if the food is not the cause but the symptom. I know you said you took her to the vet and she had a clean bill of health, but it may be worth a return visit...or a visit to a different, more open-minded vet for a second opinion. You might also transition her back to a high quality canned for a trial period of time to see if she vomits after the same amount of time as raw (was that three weeks or so?). I know you want to feed raw, and I’m there with you, but I think some food experiments are in order. I really do wonder if it’s a raw issue. Third, you might want to jump over to the Cat Health forum and describe your problem there and mention that you’ve already posed your questions on the raw subforum.

Hang in there, Z, while Mom figures this out!

 

[coffeeharlot]

Tobermory She had a full workup for a base line when I first got her, so all the blood work, a urinalysis, the whole shebang. Everything was awesome then, though that was back in March. She does have an appointment Tuesday for an unrelated matter (the goofball thought a flying leap off a tall cabinet after a moth was a brilliant idea and she's been walking a little stiff) but I'm sure I can change it for a more thorough exam. Same practice, but a different vet, so fingers crossed they're not as bad as the first vet!

As for canned, she was solely on that from March until early May with absolutely no issues. The shelter also was giving her canned and dry and there was nothing in her file that said she had dietary issues.

I'll definitely go ask! Can't hurt anything for sure.

 

[orange&white]

How long ago was the crash landing off the cabinet? Pain might make her nauseated....or any other "event" (new construction noise outside, other animals prowling about, etc) anything that might rattle her sense of security could cause tummy upset.

 

[coffeeharlot]

It happened Monday night. I gave her a couple of days to work it out then made the appointment, but of course by then there was nothing until next week.

 

[orange&white]

It happened Monday night. I gave her a couple of days to work it out then made the appointment, but of course by then there was nothing until next week.

Unrelated to the tummy upsets then.

That just got me thinking that any unusual stress in the environment can make some cats tummies upset. An environmental cause may have been easier to fix than a food ingredient mystery!

 

[coffeeharlot]

Alas, my life is never that easy!

 

[Tobermory]

I saw your post on the other forum and it got me thinking about Z’s problem again. Since she had a good visit with vet #2 (yay!), I thought I’d use this thread since it has more to do with her food. So, here goes.

You could try furballsmom’s idea and try feeding raw one day and canned the next...or every other meal...or every two or three days on one and then the other. Or some combo of that. I’m not sure if that would make a difference, but if it works, it would give her a partial raw diet and help control canned food costs.

I agree that it’s hard to understand why it takes two to three weeks for the vomiting to begin, but you might try splitting her meals into more frequent, smaller portions. Inconvenient, I know, but this is all an experiment at this point. My calico vomited her breakfast—but not her dinner—two mornings in a row so I divided her breakfast into two meals served 30-45 minutes apart. She didn’t vomit that and seems okay this morning after having her regular meal. She was vomiting about 20 minutes after her meal, not two weeks, but just something to try!

You could try one of the commercial supplements like Alnutrin or EZ Complete instead of your own supplement mix. I’ve tried both, and my cats ate them with no issues. The downside for you is that the free samples both offer won’t work in your case since there’s enough only for a few days, not two or three weeks. So you’d have to get a regular bag. EZ Complete is quite a bit more expensive than Alnutrin.

Check your local independent pet supply store, if you have one, and see if they carry Small Batch blends. Small Batch is a small commercial raw company that makes both frozen complete meals for cats and dogs and frozen two-pound chubs of single proteins to which you need to add supplements. I’ve used the single protein chubs (called “blends” for some reason), and for a per pound cost, they’re not unreasonably expensive. With the exception of rabbit, which is $19 for two pounds at my store, the other proteins are under $10 for two pounds. They’re already at the 80/10/10 ratio of meat to bone to organs so you wouldn’t add calcium. Some of the blends have veggies (more for dogs) so look for the protein-only chubs. This would let you more easily experiment with different proteins like turkey or rabbit.

I think that’s the extent of my ideas at this point!

 

[coffeeharlot]

I'm thinking I might try the intermittent feeding with the raw and canned. It'll let me use up the raw I've already got made and a few cans of food aren't a huge hardship, either.

It is pretty strange! Do you mean spacing out the raw meals or meals in general? I work from home, so it's not a massive time kill to space out her food a bit. I've been giving some thought to adding one ingredient at a time to see if there's an obvious culprit, though it would take literally forever since it takes so long for her to get to the point of having an issue. Also figuring out the teensy, minute, fraction of a gram of each supplement per meal instead of for a whole batch... oof! I don't maths that well.
I also wondered if it could, maybe, somehow, be a brand thing though I don't see one Vitamin E being any different than the next, though a fish oil could definitely be a little different from one brand to the next. And I found the free sample pages for both EZ Complete and Alnutrin, so if it comes right down to it I can make some with those and if there's no problem then it's definitely one of my supplements somehow. Alnutrin isn't too bad, really, though the recipe for the whole chicken diet is a little vague. I'm assuming you're supposed to figure out the 80/10/10 on your own and add the supplement? (I do grind my own bones)

I live in a Small Batch dead zone! How funny is that? The nearest store on their locator is 430 miles away, haha! I do have several independent stores around me, though, so I could look for other brands. I see Rad Cat offers free samples, so I could try that as well. I think I've read their bone content is way too high? Some more stuff to research!!

 

[Tobermory]

It is pretty strange! Do you mean spacing out the raw meals or meals in general?

If I understand what you’re asking, I mean feed the same quantity per day but split that into smaller amounts more frequently. I feed my cats twice a day, two ounces per cat per meal. What I did with Iris was to give her one ounce instead of two in the morning feeding. Then I gave her the other ounce about 45 minutes later (much to the other cats’ outrage ). She has always had a bit of a delicate stomach, and she’s never been a big eater. But she loves raw and I thought a smaller amount might be easier on her stomach.

Also figuring out the teensy, minute, fraction of a gram of each supplement per meal instead of for a whole batch... oof! I don't maths that well.

I agree. It doesn’t seem practical...even if you were a math whiz!

I also wondered if it could, maybe, somehow, be a brand thing though I don't see one Vitamin E being any different than the next, though a fish oil could definitely be a little different from one brand to the next.

Maybe although it seems a bit of a stretch. And I agree that fish oil seems like the most likely culprit if it really is a supplement thing.

And I found the free sample pages for both EZ Complete and Alnutrin, so if it comes right down to it I can make some with those and if there's no problem then it's definitely one of my supplements somehow. Alnutrin isn't too bad, really, though the recipe for the whole chicken diet is a little vague. I'm assuming you're supposed to figure out the 80/10/10 on your own and add the supplement? (I do grind my own bones)

Yeah, the Alnutrin website isn’t very intuitive. They have three kinds: two with different kinds of calcium and one for people who grind their own bones like you do. I sampled the one with eggshell calcium because I thought it would be easier as a test, even though I grind bones, too. I just did a batch of boneless thighs with added liver for the test. Super easy. They have great customer service so if you want to ask about the Alnutrin for Meat and Bone, I’d send them an email. The whole point is that it’s supposed to be easy and take the guess work out so I can’t imagine that you’d have to mess around with ratios. EZ Complete has just the one option. It’s for boneless meat only and no need to add anything else because the organs and calcium are in the premix.

Rad Cat is probably one of the highest quality—and most expensive—commercial raw foods. It has the least amount of extra stuff in it. My holistic vet actually knows the owners—they used to bring their pets to him when he had a clinic in northern Oregon and practiced more traditional medicine. He feeds his cats Rad Cat. I hadn’t heard that about bone content being high. I have heard it about Stella & Chewy’s, though. I can’t get S&C frozen around here, but I have some of the S&C Duck Duck Goose freeze dried which I give as a treat. Mine love it, even the picky eater. In fact, I rehydrated some of it to give her after she vomited the homemade chicken, and she gobbled it down and kept it down.

I see more experimentation in your future!

 

[coffeeharlot]

If I understand what you’re asking, I mean feed the same quantity per day but split that into smaller amounts more frequently.

I was having a moment... I meant only the raw meals (not the canned meals) or all of her meals. Obviously since she doesn't have problems with canned, I should just try spacing out the raw meals she gets. Currently she's fed three times a day, 2oz each meal. I can definitely break up one meal into 2 meals.

Yeah, figuring out the tiny amounts of supplements would be crazy and would need a scale that can go lower than the one I currently have. I might look into grabbing another fish oil just to try out, but it is a bit of a stretch that it's a brand thing. Maybe I can get a sample somewhere!

I will definitely email Alnutrin to ask about the meat & bones supplement. EZ Complete is a very expensive option, but I can see the draw. Just add meat!

I can't remember where I saw that Rad Cat's bone ratio is high. I could be completely wrong and it was someone just trashing commercial raw on the whole. A few cups won't hurt anything, and if nothing else it'll give Z a little variety!

Thanks so much for all your help! I really appreciate you guys brain storming with me.

 

[valentine319]

Hi, let's see a few things I recommend.

1. Switch to 4 meals. Keep meals at 1.4 -1.5 ounces at a meal. In the beginning of raw my cat was having issues with 3 meals. She would eat too fast and regurgitate. You're heating them so that's not the issue. Cold she would regurgitate too. If you can do 5 for a while it would help sometimes to get the digestive track used to raw. Your goal is to try and keep them from going over 9 hours without food. I feel this is a beginning thing. Once they've been on it a while it's not as much of an issue.

You're not feeding whole carcass so that's not the issue.

2. My girl requires eating observation. Basically she feels safer and eats better if you're nearby. This requires one place to be fed with the door to that room closed. Basically I got a retired queen. But it could be the same as a shelter. A fear another cat will come along and eat their food. Sometimes they eat too fast. The food comes back up quickly. So I make the food on the plate. Take her on the room, close the door and watch her eat.

3. Spread the food around the plate so it takes longer to eat.

Regurgitation-you can look it up but I'm going to describe in a raw way. You see kitty scarf down food, almost inhale. In less that 5 minutes (rarely 10) their whole body moves as they regurgitate a food log. I find mine does this right after she cleans the plate if she inhales it.

4. Are you adding fiber? I know my recipe mentions it but I don't use it. If you are using it let us know. I'm wondering if fiber in the beginning could act like the fur in whole carcass and cause vomiting. If you're using fiber please read the label. I didn't even try it because I was having difficulty finding pure fiber without artificial sweetener.

5. Possibly could be supplements (don't think so but including anyways). What kind of supplements do you use. I'm pretty much with now brand on everything. There are some great brands I don't have available to me.

6. Fish oil. Ugh fish oil. While i think if you do more meals this should clear this needs to be mentioned. We're all told fish oil is good for cats and us. If you're buying cheap ones they can be bad. I prefer liquid so I can smell it. Even for us humans if it's a low quality it can actually do more harm than good. I do recommend a better fish oil across the board for fish and humans. My cat is allergic to fish. Yeah that made food nightmarish. I feel with the issues with bad fish oil we need to be careful. I prefer this one. Iceland Pure Unscented Pharmaceutical Grade Sardine Anchovy Oil For Dogs and Cats.Bottle Size 33oz Just put in the fridge. There is a smaller bottle. It lasts a long time. Here's the smaller one. Iceland Pure Unscented Pharmaceutical Grade Sardine Anchovy Oil For Dogs and Cats.Bottle Size 8.75oz
No Rosemary or lemon in the fish oil. You're looking for micronized distillation of the fish oil. Smaller fish are better than salmon. Krill I'm leery of until we give it some time unless krill is the only thing working due to allergies.

Check other supplements for filler ingredients but they're probably fine.

Let us know how things go.