Could it be the potatoes causing loose stools?

[mysterylover]

Hi everyone!

I have been trying to solve a mystery of my cat's loose stools for a while now.  I posted on another thread, but I wanted to get some opinions on potato and potato starch in foods and whether, over time, they could possibly be the culprit.  I have 3 cats.   The other two have had no issues, other than constipation when I tried to give them the Iams low-residue and Royal Canin Special 33 I was trying with the cat with the loose stools (they eat mostly wet and just a bit of the dry to carry them in between wet feedings and they are not free fed that kibble--it is hand fed a few at a time).

The cat has been to the vet and was dewormed, just in case, as they sample was not that great.  A round of Flagyl with some Fortiflora helped, but only until it was out of his system.  The vet said to change nothing in the diet in order to evaluate.   The canned I was using before we went to the vet was Fancy Feast Classic Chicken, Fancy Feast Classic Turkey, Weruva Paw Lickin' Chicken, and Weruva Quick and Quirky.  However, before we ever went to the vet, I did try to do some trials with other wet foods.  I thought he might have had better stools (they were never pure diarrhea, just pudding/soft) on duck (think I was trying Blue Wilderness canned), but to be honest, it was hard for me to believe it was a protein intolerance, since I fed nothing but boiled chicken for a day, and there was no diarrhea.  When this all started, the small amount of dry was Blue Basics Grain Free Turkey and Potato.

So, his diarrhea is better (nearly to the point of constipation) with the Iams low-residue or the Royal Canin 33.  I think he has less constipation on the RC 33, but I am wondering if that is just because the grains, especially the corn, are just drying--which is not the answer to the problem, just a Band-Aid, in my opinion.

Anyway, the loose stool seems to come and go now.  I confess to adding a few kibbles of his old turkey and potato to the RC 33 to try to mitigate the constipation and get regular stools.  I only did that one day, though.  I am just thinking of how the Weruva has potato starch and the Blue Basics has like a lot of potato.

Has anyone here has ever had a cat sensitive to potato and potato starch?  So many people here have found that switching proteins really helped, but again, boiled chicken seems fine to this cat.  When I took him to the vet, I actually had him on only Weruva Paw Lickin Chicken, since it has such limited ingredients, and of course, he had loose stools at that time.  I can't help but wonder if the potato could be an issue, but a search here did not bring up a ton of threads even mentioning potato sensitivity.  They have been on the Blue Basic with the Turkey and Potato for about 2 years, and they are all 4.  I am guessing they probably split 1/4 cup amongst the three of them in a day.  They actually were on only Fancy Feast Classics (chicken, turkey, and beef) with the Blue Basics when I discovered the loose stools.  The Weruva came out of some trials, and it was the only other food all cats would eat that I tried (and I tried a ton).  At this point, I am not so worried about them all eating the same thing any more.  If this one cat cannot have something, I will have to work with that.

Since they were on FF when it started, I have also questioned the artificial color in the Fancy Feast Chicken. I did not think the chicken did, but I read the label again and see "added color." I am guessing if it was natural, it would say natural color.  The Beef and Turkey do not list "added color" but have artificial flavors.  Of course, the beef has sodium nitrite--yuck. 

Whatever I do, I want any trial to be slow. I tend to get frustrated and want to try a new can of food and then, if the loose stools are there in 24 hours, I discount that new food.  In research, I had a time finding a dry food with no grains and no potatoes.  It looks like Innava Nature's Table Chicken and Turkey actually has no potatoes.  Anybody have any experience with this food?  It is pretty high in protein, so I would definitely have to do a slow introduction mixing with RC 33.  I was planning on sending DH to the store today, so I am trying to decide what to buy.

All suggestions are welcome.  Sorry for the novel.  I get wordy.  I do appreciate any feedback! 

 

[lisamarie12]

Cats are obligate carnivores, it's all about protein (and fat), they have very little need for carbs and starch. Maybe it was the various gums in Weruva, guar gum, locust bean and xanthan gum - that caused the problem. I have a 4 year old male with both feline herpes and IBD. I don't feed dry kibble (and he's allergic to chicken) but I found that once I removed carrageenan from his diet, the stools improved. Since I started feeding Primal's freeze dried turkey reconstituted with water, his stools are now normal and less voluminous. The food is far more cost effective then the premium canned I was feeding for two cats. Good luck with that, it's a challenge-I look around at all the canned foods in my neighborhood store-so many foods yet few choices when it comes to finding gum free food. Remember that duck and lamb are fattier meats and possibly could contribute to loose stools. And do consult with your vet if kitty's stools don't normalize and that can be very dehydrating.

 

[mysterylover]

Thank you for you input.  He and his sister are definitely intolerant of carrageenan.  They both had daily horrible hairballs when I gave them canned food with with that.  I was so glad to find Weruva, as it had so few ingredients.  I tried to go without any dry before we ever saw the vet, and he still had loose stools, so at least at that point, canned only was not the answer.   I had DH pick up a small back of Natural Balance Chicken and Pea (figured we had the Duck as the next option if he immediately got worse or something on the Chicken version).  It is hard for me to believe he has intolerance to chicken, but it may be the case.  Having said that.  I watched him have a very normal stool today, so I was thrilled.  I want what is best for him, and I certainly want him to have the benefits of the moisture of wet and all the protein.  But, as you said, him having loose stools long term is dangerous in terms of dehydration, and he actually lost nearly half a pound when they loose stools were daily (before the round of Flagyl and the Fortiflora, where he did gain it back at a subsequent visit).  As much as it is hard to trust NB since the buyout, for now, I am going to give it a try.  My biggest challenge is not making too many changes at once.  I get impatient or think he needs more variety, etc. They all had very normal stools over the last 12 hours, which is great!  I am going to stick to one type of canned food and the small amount of NB dry.  This cat is an addict to kibble, but fortunately, a small amount satisfies him.  I have seriously seen him get his leg caught in a cabinet where the bags of kibble (even dog kibble) were locked up, having worked to pry a crack open for a while when I was asleep in the other room. I have avoided going with any kind of raw because I am the only person who feeds my cats.  At most, DH might give them some Purebites treats, but he won't open a can or do anything that requires preparation.  In 4 years, my daughter is the only other person who has fed them a meal, and that was once when I had an intestinal virus for hours and hours.  God forbid I were ever hospitalized or had to be away for a few days and had to trust DH to rehydrate the raw.  He might open a can of food if I begged, but he has not done so in  4 years, not even with I had mono for 4 months.  I just held my head up with my hands and sat on the floor, but I made sure the cats ate.  If raw were the only option for the cats to be healthy, I would have to try it.  I will keep it in mind, as the kind you rehydrate is likely the only kind I would consider. I will also keep in mind that the gums could be an issue as I am adding back any canned (but slowly, LOL).  I keep hoping that some of the other brands will start to take out the carrageenan as they see that pet parents are not happy with that ingredient, but I suspect it will be a while before that happens, since reformulating foods is time consuming and costly to companies. If FF can make a pate' without carrageenan, I cannot see why the other companies cannot.  Thank you again for input! 

 

[ankitty]

Have you tried probiotics without flagyl? When my cat had loose stool, flagyl made it worse and probiotics from health food store actually helped. When I fed weruva, I noticed that my cats looked somehow off. Now I feed mostly Nature's variety instinct cans which are probably the best food for my cats except raw. 

 

[lisamarie12]

This is probably a thread for the nutrition forum, likely you'd receive far more input and information than I can provide (especially the from the home cooked / raw forum), however, I'll address a few points.

First, so sorry you are having to deal with the food challenges and kitty's health, I realize how trying and stressful it can be but you will get it resolved, it'll just take time and a bit of trial and error.

I like Weruva, that the company's products are mostly meat based (although far too many fish options and not enough fowl or even LID meats, that's a pity), but they still use various gums which are questionable:

http://catcentric.org/2014/04/14/pet-food-ingredients-to-avoid-guar-gum/

http://catcentric.org/2014/03/30/pet-food-ingredients-to-avoid-xanthan-gum/

Very few canned foods are entirely gum free.  Carrageenan is the worst offender, but the others aren't much better.

There are companies who will heed what customers want, if customers take the time to contact the companies. For example, Ziwi Peak removed the carrageenan from their canned food formulas because customers complained to them (I was one of them.)  Nature's Variety changed their rabbit sourcing from China to France because they received negative feedback from customers.

Change happens, albeit slowly.

Have you considered a stronger probiotic? My understanding of Forti Flora (Dr. Lisa Pierson DVM, catinfo.org loves it primarily as a means of getting dry food addicts to eat moisture rich foods instead that they'd normally ignore) is that FF is a mild probiotic but enhanced with animal digest, the same ingredient used to spray on kibble to make it appealing to cats..  I've used Animal Essentials probiotic, it gets good reviews and is affordable (about $9 purchased online) vs other more expensive probiotics.

Less is more (as far as food ingredients), especially when you are dealing with a cat that has either a food intolerance or allergies. (Both my cats are allergic to chicken.)  They have very little need for  carbs as mentioned previously but also vegetables.

As far as NB ... I actually worked for the company for three years, doing demos in various Petco stores. I left after they merged with Del Monte (now Big Hearts Pet Food). One of the General Mgrs of the stores told me that he and others had visited the DM facility where NB is produced and that the facility was so "disgusting", several of these mgrs no longer wanted to recommend the food to customers.  Another manager told me a customer returned canned cat food with blue plastic found inside. And yet another reputable web site documented a customer's experience with three separate cases of chicken liver pate with "rocks or pebbles" in the cans, presumably, pebbles being fed to chicken for digestion yet not cleaned out of the food during the production process.

So I personally would not trust them with a ten foot pole.  Don't take my word for it - do the research, the info is out there .....

Freeze dried meat only treats seem to work very well for "dry food addicts". Pure Bites, Origen, Whole Life, there are quite a few out there. A little goes a long way, crush a treat on top of the wet food, it's like adding the Worcestershire sauce to the steak.

Commercial raw is very easy to feed, I like that it's HPP although the raw feeders who prepare raw from scratch, many might disagree with HPP.  But I have a feline herpes cat, and while HPP does destroy some good bacteria along with the bad (salmonella, listeria, Ecoli, etc.), I feel a bit more reassured feeding him this. Frozen raw bites are no problem to defrost, at room temp they defrost in about 20 minutes. I like Primal's freeze dried (reconstituted) but also their Pronto frozen line. A little goes a long with helping kitties feel sated - it takes less raw for cats to feel satisfied than canned or kibble.

But again, do the research. Less is more in kitty's diet, the fewer the ingredients, the better. Meat, meat, meat, it's all about the meat. Good luck.

 

[mysterylover]

Thank you to everyone for the input.  I thought about putting this on the Nutrition thread, but since it was causing health problems, I decided to go here.  In other words, as much as I want nutrition, there are actual symptoms I am trying to fix.  At one point, I tried a can of NV.  I don't remember what flavor I tried (maybe duck, maybe chicken?).  I don't recall if this cat liked it or not.  That was before the round of Flagyl and Fortiflora, and it did not help, but again, I was getting frustrated, impatient, and tired of buying different cans of food, hoping one would produce regular stools.  Maybe I will have DH pick up a can, though I am not sure which flavor.  Rabbit would be novel.  Sourcing from France is probably better than sourcing from China.  It sort of bothers me to feed them rabbit, since I had a pet rabbit for 8 years after college.  I guess I had better get over that, since I know own cats, who are carnivores!   LOL!

LisaMarie12--Thank you for your inside info on NB.  I am not thrilled about what I have read about the product since the buyout, but at this point, I am getting desperate.  I would likely be able to get my cat to give up kibble, but my other 2 cats puke up the white acid foam if they go more than 9-10 hours without food.  If I go to bed before DH, I can ask him to feed a few kibbles before he comes to bed, and it gives me another hour to sleep if I am wiped out and am catching up on sleep.  I work every day, so I need to rest extra when work allows.  He will not open a can--never has in the entire 2-1/2 years I have been feeding them canned, but if they come in the living room and start walking all over him, he will give them a dozen kibbles of whatever food I say is okay.  Having said that, I was thrilled to see Tigger produce "normal" stool 2 or three days in a row as we transitioned from the RC Special 33 to the NB pea and chicken.  However, this morning, there was a blob of loose stool covered in litter in the box.... and we just got them to all NB about 2 days ago.  I did split 3 ounces of the Weruva Quick and Quirky (tend to avoid the once with veggies as the cats don't like them much and have never even tried any with any fish) between them 2 days ago and again last night.  Anybody know how long it takes for a cat to pass the food he eats? I am pretty stumped.  I debated about trying the NV dry (since I seem to be determined to keep some kibble since diarrhea persisted when he was on all canned for over a week, though I may try it again).  The majority of people here don't seem stressed about the clay in the NV canned and dry.  I guess I keep thinking that, if it is a good ingredient, why are they the only company using it?  Maybe it is more expensive? 

Oh, I tried the Fortiflora alone.  I only used maybe 1/3 of a packet, and he seemed to get constipated.  That was what happened with the Iams low-residue and the RC Special 33, so I had a feeling they were too drying or something (plus the grains made all cats groom excessively).  Maybe I did not use the Fortiflora long enough.  Initially, I was thinking I might try it for a week, every other day or only 1 meal a day and then in the next week skip more days in between, but I can only do that if he does not get constipated and stop pooping for 2-3 days like he seemed to on it before.

Today, I went back to Fancy Feast Classic Turkey as the wet and kept the NB, just to keep from changing more than one thing.

I so do not want this to be a chicken allergy, as it would mean me feeding him separately.  It stresses all three cats when I take him off to the other room alone to feed him, and the only way to avoid that would be if I feed them all only turkey, duck, etc. That would at least allow some variety, since NV makes duck and turkey and even Fancy Feast Classic Turkey would not be totally out, as long as he tolerated it. 

LisaMarie12--You said both of your cats are allergic to chicken.  Can you tell me how you found out?  Did symptoms happen suddenly or over time?  This loose stool thing could have been over time, as I think I did not catch it for maybe a month.  I think I was scooping blobs of litter-covered loose stool when I thought it was urine for at least a month.  I guess I am having trouble seeing how a cat can eat something off and on for a couple of years and suddenly be allergic to this point.  I even thought of posting on either Nutrition or Health to see if others discovered a food allergy with an experience similar to mine.  When this all started, my cats were on Fancy Feast Classics (chicken, turkey, and beef rotated daily) and the small amount of dry was Blue Buffalo Basics Turkey and Potato grain free.  During the days of "better stool" lately, I had days where I fed only FF turkey and the NB chicken and pea, so I am thinking that, if there is a food thing, it would maybe be the potato starch in the Weruva or the chicken in the Weruva or the NB.  We are on the same small bag of NB chicken and pea as when the stool was normal for a day or two, but I was mixing with Special 33 in transition up until the last 2 days. One thing about me depending on the wet food for moisture for my cats (they hardly ever drink out of the water bowl, and if I can find the money, I have considered a fountain), if I wanted to do a trial to see if the dry food is the culprit, I would worry about dehydration even for a day of dry only, you know? I guess I could try the NV LID duck pate and see if he would eat it for a few days exclusively.  There is no way I could feed him near the other two if they were eating FF or Weruva though, as he would surely at least lick their bowls (or would a lick likely not be an issue?).  I spoon their food in their bowls a bit at a time (to slow them down or they would inhale and likely barf), so I can police him pretty good. It looks like NV only has Turkey or Rabbit in the LID kibble, and some people are fussing about the formula change to peas being the 2nd ingredient, which might not be so bad since my cats like the NB chicken and pea. 

I wish Weruva made one with only turkey.  They do have the Steak Frites, so I could try that and, if he is not allergic to beef, he would be able to tolerate it.

More suggestions welcome!   Thanks for everything! 

 

[ankitty]

 
 The majority of people here don't seem stressed about the clay in the NV canned and dry.  I guess I keep thinking that, if it is a good ingredient, why are they the only company using it?  Maybe it is more expensive? 

Oh, I tried the Fortiflora alone.  I only used maybe 1/3 of a packet, and he seemed to get constipated.  That was what happened with the Iams low-residue and the RC Special 33, so I had a feeling they were too drying or something (plus the grains made all cats groom excessively).  Maybe I did not use the Fortiflora long enough.  Initially, I was thinking I might try it for a week, every other day or only 1 meal a day and then in the next week skip more days in between, but I can only do that if he does not get constipated and stop pooping for 2-3 days like he seemed to on it before.

I think the clay in NVI is actually helping my cats. I think it firmed up their poop. But NV website says they use the clay for anti caking, so I'm guessing that it does what carrageenan or guar gum does, but more expensive and safer. 

I heard that probiotics may become ineffective if left in warm temperature. I got proviable from a vet but it didn't work very well, then I got refrigerated acidophillus from a local health food store and it really worked. Fortiflora has other ingredients, so maybe trying something simpler like simple acidophillus may help? 

 

[mysterylover]

Thanks for the tip on the Fortiflora.  I did put the packets in the fridge after I brought it home--just seemed right for some reason.  I could try a flavor of the NV just to see if this cat or any cat will eat any of it.  I could need to make a diet change with one of the others at some point and need to know if they would eat it.  The little girl is very picky.  Every brand tried has gotten that burying motion but FF and Weruva.  As much as that is sort of bottom quality and upper quality, I was fine with that mix if it worked.  I forced myself to be fine with the Iams low-residue if it would worked (despite the ingredients), but when he did not poop for 3 days, I had to consider other options. But it was chicken based, so I had to wonder if the diarrhea would have stopped if he was experiencing issues with chicken.  Of course, it was chicken by-product meal not even chicken meal.

I have been dealing with his diet for 2 months now.  It is getting very frustrating.  The vet did elude to IBD being a possibility if the Flagyl round did not work.  I am guessing he would have recommended a Purina HA for allergy, since he did say the Iams low-residue was used in IBD cats.  There is no canned of the HA either.  There is a canned for the Iams low-residue, but it must be as bland and scentless as plain rice, as he would not even lick it.  In other words, if it is IBD, I am not sure another vet visit would help more than trying the NV duck or NV rabbit or something.

I can always try the Fortiflora again and see if he gets constipated from it (just cannot change his food at the same time).  I sort of worried that he would get used to that animal digest on all of his wet food and then want it all the time once I removed it.

Thanks again for your time and comments.  They are most appreciated.  I am going to try to be patient as I do trials and hope he will eat whatever I do try.

 

[lisamarie12]

Greetings,

I empathize with what you are going through.  Let me say first off, being just a "layperson" and not a vet or feline nutritionist, I offer suggestions loosely (as likely others do here) and cautiously, based on experience.

With all due respect, it's possible that the switching around of foods, without any gradual transition could also be causing digestive upset.  NB, Weruva, Fancy Feast, Blue, Royal Canin - that's a lot of different ingredients perhaps in too short of a time (and I apologize if I'm making assumptions).  Even mixing a non-premium food e.g., Fancy Feast, with a premium, Blue (and by premium we mean no byproducts, corn soy or wheat), that in and of itself can cause problems.

Keep it simple with the ingredients.  I understand having multiple cats and one with a health issue, having to separate that cat, or finding a food that is both palatable to all three, etc., it's a challenge. It's one of the reasons I decided, with my two cats, brother and sister, the brother having herpes, IBD and more sensitive to skin issues (licking his neck raw and bald to the point of getting a staph infection, needing antibiotics, or steroids) than his sister, it seems,  to feed them the same foods, although it took me awhile.  It is just too stressful otherwise.  Also, this way you can monitor the stools better if they are all on the same food. I also added a probiotic daily to all their meals.

Cats out in the wild would eat many times a day, one web site I found indicated an average of 12-15 small meals daily.  People like to free feed dry food for the reason that they don't want their cats to be hungry or vomit "white foam", as you mentioned. But if a cat is getting nutrient dense meals, they would feel more sated and usually have a healthy appetite by the time the human comes home from work (provided it's not a 10-12 hour day, but maybe an 8 hour work day); this would cut out the need to free feed dry.    I feed the cats four times a day -- twice in the morning hours and twice at night.

I've been using a freeze dried raw (Primal freeze dried turkey), reconstituted with water which both cats love. My male cat likes the frozen (thawed) raw also, even though his sister doesn't - yet, because we are still working on that, lol. 

It takes longer for a cat to digest processed kibble (high starch, even the best grain free, the stomach becomes less acidic) with canned somewhere in the middle, and dry food taking the longest to digest.

Our vet told us the cats likely had a chicken allergy, (because I was already feeding a premium, grain-free canned diet, no dry food so the allergy wasn't to the typical fillers - corn, soy and wheat). He said he sees these lesions "all the time" and mainly from chicken but beef and fish are up on the list as well. Cats (or dogs or even humans) can develop an allergy to a food that they tolerated well for many years. That's why it's best to always rotate proteins, some people will feed a cat or dog chicken only for many years; the immune system at some point says, "Whoa doggy" and it's too much. But there are many different theories on protein allergies in obligate carnivores. One theory is that the immune system is responding to denatured proteins, the shape of the protein in canned food and more so in kibble changes shape than in raw meat. That is why *some* cats / dogs who are allergic to e.g., any kind of cooked chicken, including home cooked, do fine on raw with no allergic symptoms. Another theory has to do with leaky gut syndrome, this is where a probiotic may help. Another theory is the quality of the meats - hormones, antibiotics in the meats vs free range. Another holistic vet I've read online, Dr. Jean Hofve (I would post links but the last links I posted had to await moderator approval on this site so I'll just gives names and you can research when you have time), Dr. Hofve suggests the starch in dry food exacerbates allergies.

I think you mentioned previously you are hesitant about raw, however, if you spend some time researching, if only for the sake of learning what the true dietary needs are of a cat, seeing all the mostly unneeded ingredients in most cat foods will set you aback.  

Cats really have very simple dietary needs -- meat and some fat; very little need for carbs, veggies. Keep it simple. Also, there is a difference b/t food allergies and a food intolerance. The former manifests usually with itching, gnawing at the paws, itchy ears, runny eyes and nose, as if the animal had a cold. A food intolerance is usually digestive upset -- loose stools, gassy, vomiting. 

There are vets that will do allergy testing, it may not be 100% accurate, but the average is 80% and far better than playing a guessing game as to what is causing the problem.   We did a food elimination trial, per the vet - we found a "novel" protein, at that time it was NB's LID venison and so the cats were on that for a while. Usually 6-8 weeks is norm - you feed nothing else but that single food. Then you reintroduce what you think may be the offending allergen, e.g., chicken. And it's not like you feed the chicken and an hour later the cat is itchy - no, it can take two weeks in the cat (or dog's) immune system to cause a reaction. That's why vets will suggest the elimination diet for 6-8 weeks.

What can I tell you .... if I were in your situation I would look for very limited ingredient foods (one brand only ) that all three cats like. Focus on wet and if you must leave dry then just a little.  Increase meals if you are only feeding twice a day, increase to three or four and make those canned meals.  They will feel more sated with canned. If you are willing to try a freeze dried raw, more power to you because they will feel the most sated with raw.  If one doesn't like the food, I would try freeze dried meat treats (single ingredient, e.g., Pure Bites, Origin, Whole Life - they make meat only treats). It only takes a little bit to "season" the food to make it palatable. 

Definitely do the research on it all though, don't take my word (or anyone's word for it), just use this as a guide. I researched raw and still research raw before I switched my cats over. I feel comfortable using an HPP raw b/c it destroys salmonella, ecoli, and other harmful pathogens as long as you practice safe handling and feeding guidelines.  My goal though is to get the cats to 100% raw or some combo of commercial raw and home cooked / homemade raw balanced meat.

Also, Nature's Logic (an excellent food btw) uses montmorillonite clay in their formulas, they have an article about it -- if you go to the Nature's Logic web site "blogspot" and type in montmorillonite clay, you will find a very thorough explanation on its' properties (again, I can't post links apparently until I have 10 posts on this site and surpass my "newbie" status, or rather, I can post links but the post is delayed).

Good luck with everything and remember - less is more ....

 

[lisamarie12]

My cat's IBD was "cured" with Primal's diet (although he eats a bit of NV's rabbit at night); no more stinky stools that look like mounds of Play-Doh. ;D

I understand your hesitation with rabbit given you had a pet rabbit, I hear that a lot from people and I respect that. Do know, however, that many cats do well on rabbit. It's a low fat, easy to digest meat. There are other alternatives though.

 

[mysterylover]

LisaMarie12--Thank you for your detailed response.  It gives me much to think about.  I guess I always did think if the allergy as more skin with itching and lesions and such.  I feel like my cats were on their way to that with the veterinary Iams dry and the RC Special 33.  Yes, I ended up trying the vet diet and that close together, but the vet diet was only for about a week.  When he was so constipated he was clearly straining after a week on it, I got worried about that being dangerous and also that the food was maybe dehydrating him.  I knew I could not go back to the Blue Buffalo (and the vet said he had had quite a few dogs and cats have diarrhea on Blue) without feeling I was definitely not going forward in the process of helping my cat.  Thus, I transitioned to the RC Special 33.  The cats were not as badly constipated (pooping tiny balls but at least going), but that resulted in what I felt was an allergic response of excessive grooming.  I felt that was surely due to the fact that they had been on grain-free food for 2 years, and the RC had corn and maybe another grain in it.  So, what I want to do is try to go forward from there.  Anyway, that explains all of the dry food brands a bit.  Natural Balance LID was an attempt to add as few ingredients to the mix as possible.  I felt like, since it did  have chicken, if he did well on it, maybe he was not allergic to chicken.

Yes, trial and error is likely not the way to do this if it is a food intolerance.  I don't have any idea if my vet does allergy testing.  I do know that I spent $400 at the vets in a week.  Unfortunately, we cannot afford another vet bill at this point, especially given that the vet did not seem to have any other ideas but IBD.  The cat is not vomiting, and the stool is like peanut butter--not liquid.  I am willing to invest some money in food before going to the vet again.  If I can do some more patient and consistent trials, at least I will be armed with some information if I have to figure out how to pay for another vet visit.  I hate going to the vets, since there is no way to budget for those trips, and our budget is very tight.

Maybe I will stay with what he is on and add the Fortiflora.  I still have about 10 packets the vet sold me, so a longer trial would be no extra expense.  He was on a round of Flagyl (1 week), and he improved.  However, I have researched and know that Flagyl can help with the inflammation when on board and then the diarrhea can return.  Having said that, I guess it is possible that the Flagyl actually messed up his normal flora and that the diarrhea that came back a few days after I stopped the Fortiflora could have been from that (and not the original bacteria that might have been being treated.  When I put him on Fortaflora alone, it was only for a couple of days.  It seemed to help the diarrhea, but I got worried about constipation, since I think I saw the other two cats each go and cleaned immediately and 12 hours later he had not gone.  I think I did that two times (they have a think about using the litter boxes right after I clean them, which can help with this situation).  Maybe I was impatient.

Because of the nearly all-wet diet, my cats are not big water drinkers.  I wondered if that might help me not worry about constipation as the alternative to loose stools so much.

I did think about feeding more often.  I work from home, and you would think stopping to feed them would be easy, but despite the fact that many people think that, because I work from home, I have it easy and have tons of time, I don't.  I am paid on production and have deadlines, so sometimes I don't pull away from work for 5 hours at a time (not good for me let alone the cats, I know).  Of course, if I fed them smaller amounts, the feeding would go faster. 

You are correct that I have likely been impatient.  I may have to go back to the drawing board and start with boiling chicken again.  Sigh!  Oh, I have heard of Nature's Logic, but because of the way our income flows with me billing and waiting on payment being self-employed, there are times when the cats would be totally out of food if I could only get the food online.  I get the Weruva at a local store, and that has been great because of having to try different flavors in hopes they would even eat it in the beginning.

I am going to keep a "diary." That way, if things improve on the Fortflora, I will know and will know what canned food they were all on that was working.  Then, if 2 weeks from now, I decide to change or add to the mix, I can change only one thing and see how he does for a week or two on that.

Thank you for taking time to post.  People are busy, so I know you have other stuff to do.  I have spent too much time on this cat's health over the last 2 months, for sure, but since he improved and actually put on some weight since the vet visit 2 weeks ago, I am trying to stop him from getting back to daily loose stools.  Funny, you have to think that maybe every stray cat likely has diarrhea either from worms or from the quality of what they eat, you know.  Then again, that is why we adopt and rescue them, right?

I will research the raw.  I spent tons of hours studying canned versus dry before ultimately putting them on the mostly canned with a few hand-fed kibbles they are currently on.  (I could never leave any food out without being there, as her brother is a beast about food and would win all of the fights, leaving her with no food.  Gotta love that sibling thing--it is love/hate.

Have a great Thanksgiving holiday, and thank you again for all of the information!  Hopefully, I have a game plan with the Fortiflora for now. I am sure the vet would sell me more if I asked.  There are likely better probiotics, but I can start with what I have at no risk.  He tolerated it fine when he was on the Flagyl, but I stopped when I stopped the antibiotic (not so smart).  You've given me some hope! 

 

[lisamarie12]

Coincidentally, I stumbled across this info regarding Flagyl tonight after I responded to your post and thought I'd pass it along to you; it's from the Holisticat web site (if you want to read the whole article, click on the "healthy" tab and on the third page there is an article re: IBD):

Unfortunately, conventional treatment for IBD consists of antibiotics such as Flagyl, but this only makes matters worse. Not only do these drugs disrupt the normal flora of the colon, long-term use can lead do an overabundance of bad/virulent bacteria such that even cats who did not have colitis before antibiotics, develop it.

Very informative web site also, I learned a lot this evening just skimming through various topics.

 

[mysterylover]

Thanks.  I will spend some time on it!  You have been very helpful.  Funny, that is why I cut the Flagyl off at 7 days (was told to give for 10).  I wanted him on it the shortest time possible.  Being on the Fortiflora for a couple of weeks does not seem to have nearly the risks, and I have been trying to get a feel as to the optimal time frame to maybe start pulling back on frequency to see if he still needs it if it works (like if he is getting some daily, at what point could I go to every other day and then every 3rd day).  Information on that is a bit harder to find, but it seems most people use probiotics for at least 2 weeks, maybe 3 for something like recovery from antibiotics.

Thanks again! 

 

[lisamarie12]

I'm more than happy to provide whatever insight I can, I know what it's like. We are still dealing with our kitty who is improving on the diet but it's been a long haul - 2 years now, imagine! He has chronic herpes but seems to be improving.

Although I like Nature's Logic, it's not LID and I would try to find something LID for your kitty. Again, I know I keep pushing Primal freeze dried but I'm impressed with how easy - and affordable (I cut my canned food bill in half feeding two cats a 14 ounce bag of freeze dried reconstituted, lasts me almost one week, in addition to the NV rabbit -- for now).  Primal isn't LID either (7% vegetables, 93% meat) but it's good nutrition. Have you seen Liz's Natural Cat Care Blog where she discusses best foods?  She lists only carrageenan-free canned foods.  If at all possible you can switch to a more potent probiotic, that might help; Animal Essentials is good. I wouldn't go with another round of Forti Flora, I've read it's just not that potent and doesn't contain the full strain of good bacteria, especially when a cat has been on antibiotics. But a good probiotic all the time, even when the the cat is healthy, is a good thing (for humans too)!

I completely understand vet bills - we have to wait for our allergy testing, likely $300 for both environmental and food. I want to know if there are other foods besides chicken that he may be allergic too.   I don't think you've been impatient, likely just exasperated as we want the best for our cats and it's difficult to see a kitty with the kind of digestive upset you've mentioned.

I rarely see my two cats drink water even though I have two water bowls in different rooms, I change the water twice a day, occasionally I see them drink and yet there is plenty of urine for me to scoop so I know they are getting their moisture from food.  That's not an issue - cats have a very poor thirst drive, hence why it's critical they get their water intake from food.  When they do start lapping up water like a dog, that's against the nature of an animal that doesn't obtain water that way, it's like asking a fish to breathe out of water. 

That's nice you can work from home (at least you don't have to sit in traffic or deal with crowded commuter trains or buses).   I'm marginally employed now but I found that the four times a day meals (sometimes five if I given the cats a hearty workout - I exercise them every night, lol), works very well. 

Whatever you try with the kitty, best to gradually introduce the food versus out with the old and in with the new, that can really cause digestive upset. 

Have a great thanksgiving as well and keep me posted, I'm happy to pass along whatever info I may find.

 

[lisamarie12]

It's too bad about Weruva, it's a good food, human grade meat but too many gums, locust bean gum, guar gum, xanthan gum -- these gums can cause digestive upset in cats. And xanthan gum is a carbohydrate derivative of corn - a common allergen.  Too many fish flavors also and no single proteins from them. But they are a good option in comparison to others, especially Weruva's newer line which has minimal or next to zero veggies.

 

[mysterylover]

I just wanted to let you know that he had normal stool after only one dose of the Fortiflora.  No pudding poop covered in litter in the box since the last post there.  I still do like the Weruva, and the gums don't seem to be an issue for him.  The hairballs on the foods with carrageenan were an obvious connection.  My cats actually don't like the really veggie ones anyway.  They like Paw Licken Chicken as their favorite, and they like Quick and Quirky, On the Cat Wok, and Steak Frites.  The only real veggie in them is some pumpkin.  I do wish they had one with only turkey. I have been sticking with 2 or so flavors and the turkey Fancy Feast, and all is going well.  He has had very normal stools for the last 2 days.

I actually started with only 1/3 of a packet of the Fortiflora, in case there were any negative outcomes from adding it, and I am only using it one meal in 24 hours out of 3.  I have read on here where some people used Fortiflora all the time for IBD cats, but I am hoping this does not have to be a permanent thing for him (but would do it if it meant normal digestion for him, for sure).  I am still not 100% sure he has IBD.  He is also really sensitive to change, and right when I discovered this was happening, both of my kids went to college.  Before they started classes (one commuting and one on campus in town and coming home a couple of weekends a month), we had the all-day orientation days for both of them, where the cats were home basically alone for 12 hours one day (and with no food, which I did not like, but had to put my daughter first that day, and I thought I would be home before that according to the schedule we got, so I did not ask my mom or anyone to even come by and give them a snack).  Also, my parents are aging and needing me more.  They live about 15 minutes away, but I have been having to go over there and be gone much more frequently since summer.  I sort of wonder if this did not start with stress of me being gone (coupled with my son who is commuting having a very stressful start to college and coming home daily venting loudly), and maybe the Fortiflora is indeed helping his system just get back to whatever was normal before all of that.  I have to admit that the college stuff and my parents' issues have been more stressful for me, and adding yogurt daily to my diet has helped my digestion. 

LisaMarie12, thank you again.  While I have the Fortiflora helping, I likely won't make any big changes, even though I realized I miscalculated the carbs in the NB Chicken and Pea, and they are very high, higher than any food my cats have ever eaten (which may explain why they love it so much, since the little girl would steal a doughnut off of your plate if you looked away--sometimes I wonder if she realizes she is a carnivore at all).  I bought the smallest bag, but since things are good for the moment, I think I am just going to try to keep the kibble to like 10 pieces each as a treat but not drop it or make any changes at this point. If I keep the quantity low, maybe the girl cat won't put on weight from the carbs for the next couple of weeks.  I can reevaluate then.  I really wish DH would consider opening a can for the cats, but he is not going to do it.  He will grab the Purebites chicken treats or hand out a 10 kibbles to each cat.  Maybe, I could keep some 3-ounce cans of a brand that did not have to be cut up (have to cut the Weruva for the dainty sister who cannot handle the longer shreds of Weruva), he would agree to open one and split it three ways as a bedtime snack in the future.

One step at a time, though.  For now, I am happy for this cat's improvements!   I will check out the sites you have recommended as well.

 

[bonepicker]

Thank you to everyone for the input.  I thought about putting this on the Nutrition thread, but since it was causing health problems, I decided to go here.  In other words, as much as I want nutrition, there are actual symptoms I am trying to fix.  At one point, I tried a can of NV.  I don't remember what flavor I tried (maybe duck, maybe chicken?).  I don't recall if this cat liked it or not.  That was before the round of Flagyl and Fortiflora, and it did not help, but again, I was getting frustrated, impatient, and tired of buying different cans of food, hoping one would produce regular stools.  Maybe I will have DH pick up a can, though I am not sure which flavor.  Rabbit would be novel.  Sourcing from France is probably better than sourcing from China.  It sort of bothers me to feed them rabbit, since I had a pet rabbit for 8 years after college.  I guess I had better get over that, since I know own cats, who are carnivores!   LOL!

LisaMarie12--Thank you for your inside info on NB.  I am not thrilled about what I have read about the product since the buyout, but at this point, I am getting desperate.  I would likely be able to get my cat to give up kibble, but my other 2 cats puke up the white acid foam if they go more than 9-10 hours without food.  If I go to bed before DH, I can ask him to feed a few kibbles before he comes to bed, and it gives me another hour to sleep if I am wiped out and am catching up on sleep.  I work every day, so I need to rest extra when work allows.  He will not open a can--never has in the entire 2-1/2 years I have been feeding them canned, but if they come in the living room and start walking all over him, he will give them a dozen kibbles of whatever food I say is okay.  Having said that, I was thrilled to see Tigger produce "normal" stool 2 or three days in a row as we transitioned from the RC Special 33 to the NB pea and chicken.  However, this morning, there was a blob of loose stool covered in litter in the box.... and we just got them to all NB about 2 days ago.  I did split 3 ounces of the Weruva Quick and Quirky (tend to avoid the once with veggies as the cats don't like them much and have never even tried any with any fish) between them 2 days ago and again last night.  Anybody know how long it takes for a cat to pass the food he eats? I am pretty stumped.  I debated about trying the NV dry (since I seem to be determined to keep some kibble since diarrhea persisted when he was on all canned for over a week, though I may try it again).  The majority of people here don't seem stressed about the clay in the NV canned and dry.  I guess I keep thinking that, if it is a good ingredient, why are they the only company using it?  Maybe it is more expensive? I had a cat who vomited daily and had loose stools. She used to go out. I kept her in dewormed her, and started revolution drops behind shoulder blades (works on fleas and worms). She still catches mice or moles in garage. Then I removed dry and grain in wet. I gave her vets best digestive tabs (on Amazon) containing slippery elm and psyllium. I rotate Merrick duck and chicken pate, pride rockstar rabbit, nutro natural choice chunky chicken loaf, tiki cat puka luau, natural balance catatouille stew, wellness Devine duos duck/chicken combo. I was able to reintroduce Orijen and natural balance chicken pea dry as a treat(maybe 10 pieces) only in evening and I no longer have to give vets best tabs. No vomiting for a year now and small normal stools.

Oh, I tried the Fortiflora alone.  I only used maybe 1/3 of a packet, and he seemed to get constipated.  That was what happened with the Iams low-residue and the RC Special 33, so I had a feeling they were too drying or something (plus the grains made all cats groom excessively).  Maybe I did not use the Fortiflora long enough.  Initially, I was thinking I might try it for a week, every other day or only 1 meal a day and then in the next week skip more days in between, but I can only do that if he does not get constipated and stop pooping for 2-3 days like he seemed to on it before.

Today, I went back to Fancy Feast Classic Turkey as the wet and kept the NB, just to keep from changing more than one thing.

I so do not want this to be a chicken allergy, as it would mean me feeding him separately.  It stresses all three cats when I take him off to the other room alone to feed him, and the only way to avoid that would be if I feed them all only turkey, duck, etc. That would at least allow some variety, since NV makes duck and turkey and even Fancy Feast Classic Turkey would not be totally out, as long as he tolerated it. 

LisaMarie12--You said both of your cats are allergic to chicken.  Can you tell me how you found out?  Did symptoms happen suddenly or over time?  This loose stool thing could have been over time, as I think I did not catch it for maybe a month.  I think I was scooping blobs of litter-covered loose stool when I thought it was urine for at least a month.  I guess I am having trouble seeing how a cat can eat something off and on for a couple of years and suddenly be allergic to this point.  I even thought of posting on either Nutrition or Health to see if others discovered a food allergy with an experience similar to mine.  When this all started, my cats were on Fancy Feast Classics (chicken, turkey, and beef rotated daily) and the small amount of dry was Blue Buffalo Basics Turkey and Potato grain free.  During the days of "better stool" lately, I had days where I fed only FF turkey and the NB chicken and pea, so I am thinking that, if there is a food thing, it would maybe be the potato starch in the Weruva or the chicken in the Weruva or the NB.  We are on the same small bag of NB chicken and pea as when the stool was normal for a day or two, but I was mixing with Special 33 in transition up until the last 2 days. One thing about me depending on the wet food for moisture for my cats (they hardly ever drink out of the water bowl, and if I can find the money, I have considered a fountain), if I wanted to do a trial to see if the dry food is the culprit, I would worry about dehydration even for a day of dry only, you know? I guess I could try the NV LID duck pate and see if he would eat it for a few days exclusively.  There is no way I could feed him near the other two if they were eating FF or Weruva though, as he would surely at least lick their bowls (or would a lick likely not be an issue?).  I spoon their food in their bowls a bit at a time (to slow them down or they would inhale and likely barf), so I can police him pretty good. It looks like NV only has Turkey or Rabbit in the LID kibble, and some people are fussing about the formula change to peas being the 2nd ingredient, which might not be so bad since my cats like the NB chicken and pea. 

I wish Weruva made one with only turkey.  They do have the Steak Frites, so I could try that and, if he is not allergic to beef, he would be able to tolerate it.

More suggestions welcome!   Thanks for everything! 

 

[lisahe]

I'm coming into this conversation a little late but wanted to say that one of our cats does, indeed, seem to have a problem with potato and potato starch: it makes her vomit. I say "seem" because I'm only about 96% sure it's the source of her digestive discontent. I think Weruva foods were the only ones with potato that I was feeding then... I also remember that a particularly gloppy batch of Paw Lickin' Chicken caused problems (I don't remember if it was vomiting or the runs or both) for both cats. I suspect the potato starch was to blame.

Our cats are Siamese mixes with sensitive stomachs so I avoid a lot of other ingredients: peas and pea derivatives, carrageenan (though I do feed about one can of Wellness Core a week), menadione, high phosphorous levels, tuna, and any foods that are higher than 10% carb, on a dry matter basis. This combines vet recommendations, the cats' stomach limitations, and my research into the harms of various fillers, binders, and other ingredients. I'd prefer to get rid of gums, too, but I think I'd need to find some other foods the cats like -- or switch over to more raw -- so there'd be enough variety for them!

All those strictures narrows the choices but there's still plenty for a decent rotation, even when you consider they do not like certain brands, notably Nature's Variety Instinct (where I could at least pick out the peas) and Wild Calling. For canned foods they get Tiki Cat chicken foods, Weruva Cats in the Kitchen chicken foods, Hound and Gatos lamb, a few kinds of Nutro Natural Choice that don't have carrageenan, and occasional Solistic Autumn Bounty, with most of the tapioca-based "gravy" drained off. For raw foods they get lots of Primal (they prefer freeze-dried over frozen) and a medium-sized daily serving of Rad Cat. Primal does have a fair number of vegetables but they're not starchy or plentiful enough that the food has a high carb level.
 

Like @LisaMarie12, I love the Natural Cat Care Blog -- Liz uses most of the same criteria I do in choosing foods.

Good luck resolving this, @mysterylover!

 

[lisamarie12]

MysteryLover:

That is great news, I'm happy to hear of your success the last couple of days!

Forti Flora is not a strong probiotic as I believe it lacks some of the enzymes of other more complete probiotics, however, if it is working for you (and it certainly has a fantastic reputation as a flavor enhancer, getting cats to eat foods - the better foods, or even raw foods) that they normally wouldn't eat. Right now, it would seem, the goal is to stabilize their diet (the cat esp with the digestive problems), with the most nutrient dense and LID diet as possible. Weruva is very good choice for what you are seeking to accomplish. Primarily, it doesn't have carrageenan and that is the main offender as far as causing or exacerbating IBD or digestive upset.

I see below re: LisaHE has great advice also - and it's true that some of Weruva's formulas contain potato or potato starch so just read ingredients carefully.

Weruva is a very good food, despite those gums, it's one of the better choices; Ingrid K. on conscious cat . net - (remember, I can't post links yet, lol), raves about Weruva, you could visit her site and do a search on Weruva. I tried Quirky Turkey for my cats, they loved it but it was a one shot deal since it has chicken. I emailed the company once, asked why they couldn't make a single protein e.g., turkey. The response I received had something to do with the fact that all the meat is human grade, that it would be too costly, for some reason, to do turkey only.  You mentioned finding another brand to use before bed time feeding that wouldn't have to be cut up to make it easy for DH to serve. I wouldn't stray to far from what you are already feeding, again - keep it simple, limited ingredients. I think Tiki Cat has chunks versus strips of meat, not sure but I do know the food is similar to Weruva, meat based, no veggies (and I think no gums). Just try to stay away from their abundance of fish flavors. TC came out with a new line with several non-fish flavors. Maybe b/t Weruva and TC, that might be a feasible combination since the ingredients are comparable.

If you still feel you need to do some kibble, (and I would doubt that any kibble is low carb, because of the extreme heat processing it goes through, any kibble is starchy, however, maybe some are  higher than others. Imagine for one moment, boiling a potato. You boil it for e.g., half an hour and the water looks a certain way. Boil it for two hours and see how starchy it becomes. Same with kibble). You may want to look into Nature's Variety LID rabbit kibble for cats, however, again - the goal would be to minimize kibble or eliminate it all together.

You may want to look into Ziwi Peaks' "air dried" venison, a little goes a long way in helping cats feel sated. No veggies, just meat and meat organs. It also comes in lamb. But for now, just keep it simple.

I'm happy to hear things are progressing, sometimes it's at a snails pace. In the wild our feline friends don't have these digestive problems and other issues we are seeing with domesticated cats eating diets that their biology just isn't used to. Jackson Galaxy has a fantastic interview (via You Tube) on feeding cats "bio appropriate foods", you may want to take a peek at that.

For now though, sounds like things are stable with Weruva - good choice, it's very low carb and you are on your way, I salute you.

 

[lisamarie12]

LisaHE:

Very interesting!  I avoid any potato based foods and I'm just now learning about peas as well - I didn't realize the starch content. Again, it makes sense b/c our feline friends really have minimal need, if any, for veggies. Out in the wild, they would eat small animals, e.g., a bird or mouse, the entire animal, however, if it's a larger animal, e.g., a rabbit, I've read that they would not eat the stomach, hence avoiding the vegetable matter in the stomach of their prey. It's all about meat for them!

I tried Wild Calling once, the rabbit, it didn't go over well but I was concerned anyway with the yeast culture added to the food as yeast can be a potential allergen for cats / dogs. We tried H&G, it didn't go over well either. Haven't tried Nutro, I didn't realize they made carrageenan free foods but I'm not sure I trust the company, their production facilities.

I wish Primal didn't use all those veggies but as you mentioned, it's still low carb and good nutrition, far more nutrient dense than canned. I'm amazed that one 14 oz bag will last me one week for two hearty eaters, in addition to using Primal Pronto rabbit for my male cat and then NV's Instinct rabbit (I guess I ought to pick out those peas as well!) You are fortunate your cats aren't allergic to chicken, our choices are so narrow in this household. Sometimes I walk into my neighborhood pet food store which is actually very well stocked with a lot of variety of canned foods (but as far as raw frozen, only NV and Primal); it's like TV channels - so many channels and very little to watch - so many varieties but mostly chicken or fish based, or if it's a "novel" protein, invariably there is chicken  or chicken liver mixed in. My goal is to get them off canned though, I've already reduced the amount of canned but I'm in great need of diversifying the meats, and diet, lest they end up tired of Primal freeze dried turkey. It's a process, patience, patience .... Yes, Liz's Natural Cat Care Blog is excellent! I'm enjoying the feline - nutrition . org site as well. Lisa Pierson's cat info org site, one of her numerous charts, has the carb content also of all the canned foods - what an excellent chart!  I've also noticed the food bill has gone down considerably having lessened the amount of canned food I feed and since raw makes them feel more sated than canned.