Confused about point coloration

royschreiber

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Hi, I have a 7 months old Balinese cat. When I got him I was skeptical about his being Balinese rather than Thai Siamese (no documentation), but by now his fur has grown and it's unmistakable. I am however confused by his point coloration. He seems to be a Seal point but has faint strips on his tail, forehead, ears and chin that developed over time (not there in old pictures). Logically that would make him a Lynx Seal point, but every picture I see on the internet of Lynx Seal points shows cats that are much more striped and have a much lighter face coloring. He's much more similar to pictures of plain Seal points, only with faint striping.
Am I correct in thinking that he's a traditional lynx seal point balinese cat? How would you classify him?
 

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lutece

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He's very handsome!

I would describe him as a seal point domestic shorthair. The rings on his tail are ghost tabby markings; he will continue to darken as he matures.

He is not a Balinese cat, since that is a longhaired breed. It's also unlikely that he would be a Thai Siamese cat, if you do not know anything about his ancestry. Thai Siamese cats have documented ancestry from Thailand. The colorpoint gene has been widespread in the domestic cat gene pool for many generations, so most pointed shorthaired cats are domestic shorthairs without recent Siamese breed ancestry. That doesn't make them any less special, however! Domestic shorthairs are great cats, too :)
 
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royschreiber

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I am unclear about your comment about Thai Siamese cats. All Siamese cats including Balinese cats and others have roots in Thailand, that was called Siam at the time. That's the origin of the name Siamese. His shape and colors are unmistakably Siamese including his point pattern coat, pointed ears and body type. The only thing that seems different to me is his fur length (pictures might be misleading in his case as the fur sits quite neatly on him). I grew with a few Siamese cats, they have very short fur whereas he has medium-length fur and its still growing. As far as I know (and I've read quite a bit about it in recent years) that's typical for Balinese cats, who are not per-say a longhair breed, rather a longer-hair breed that is medium length relative to other types of cats but quite a bit shorter than for example Himalayans.

As far as Domestic shorthair goes, it sounds to me as if you consider only well-documented purebloods as being Siamese. If that's the case, all I have to say is that I don't live in a Harry Potter world and don't care for 'mudblood' definitions. I'm looking for a description of his general type and ansestry, not for the pureness of his bloodline. Sorry if that sounds blunt.
 

lutece

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Breed and color are two different things. A cat can be seal point in color, while not being a member of the Siamese breed. For example, a cat can be the same color as your cat (seal point), but could belong to a different breed that allows the seal point color, such as Ragdoll, British Shorthair, Devon Rex, Himalayan, Siberian, etc.

A cat can also be seal point in color, but not be any particular breed. Around 70 years ago, the Siamese breed became quite popular in the US, and since people didn't spay or neuter their cats as much back then, the colorpoint gene (responsible for pointed coloring) became spread around in the domestic cat gene pool. At this time, the recessive gene for colorpoint is very widespread in the domestic cat gene pool, and most pointed cats born in the US don't have significant Siamese breed ancestry. Most pointed cats in the US have ancestry that is primarily from Western Europe, rather than primarily from Thailand.

A domestic shorthair is simply a shorthaired cat that isn't any particular breed, or which doesn't have known breed ancestry. There's nothing wrong with that -- domestic shorthairs are fine cats!

Genetically, cats are either shorthaired or longhaired. Your cat is shorthaired, with a somewhat plush coat. A longhaired cat would have longer hair on the tail. Balinese cats typically have relatively flat coats on the body, with the long coat being visible mostly on the tail and around the neck. It's a different type of coat than what your cat appears to have.
 

lutece

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Here's an example of a Balinese cat showing coat type. The coat tends to lie flat on the body, and you can see the longer hairs on the back of the legs, belly, and on the tail. It's genetically a longhaired cat, even though it doesn't have as much coat as many other longhaired breeds. The coat length on the tail is quite apparent if you shake the tail, it will have a "plume" appearance.

2015-bw3-jav.jpg
 

lutece

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Also, you said you were unclear about my mention of "Thai Siamese" (as opposed to just "Siamese").

In the US, TICA recognizes the "Thai" breed:

This breed is based on the original Thai Siamese (Wichienmaat), and Thai breeders can use natural Thai Siamese as foundation cats in their breeding programs. Here is an interesting web site about natural Thai cats:

Some people refer to the Thai breed as "Thai Siamese," and that's what I assumed you meant by "Thai Siamese" in your first post. These cats have documented ancestry from Thailand.
 

StefanZ

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I want to comment the hair lengh and him non lynx
Yours is a shorthair, even if the fur is longish for a shorthair. Our "Ancestor" Muskis had too such a lenghish shorthair, esp on belly and the behind. And yet he did won prizes in his shorthair breed, and breeders were fond of his looks. So its fully possible to be a shorthair of good type, and yet have somewhat lenghish fur.

True lynx or ghost stripes? Sometimes its not easy to see. But a strong indicium its ghost stripes is, true lynx points gets often dark on the body too, especielly as he IS a seal. Its because they get the tabby pattern on the body too, and it gets colored, ie in practice; darkened already as young adult


Anyway, your cat is very handsome, whatever he be old type siamese look alike or pointed domestic shorthair...
If he likes to be handled and carried and doesnt mind lotsa of people around, you can try to participate in Cat Shows. Most Shows do have a class for domestics. He should do OK there.
 
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royschreiber

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I want to comment the hair lengh and him non lynx
Yours is a shorthair, even if the fur is longish for a shorthair. Our "Ancestor" Muskis had too such a lenghish shorthair, esp on belly and the behind. And yet he did won prizes in his shorthair breed, and breeders were fond of his looks. So its fully possible to be a shorthair of good type, and yet have somewhat lenghish fur.

True lynx or ghost stripes? Sometimes its not easy to see. But a strong indicium its ghost stripes is, true lynx points gets often dark on the body too, especielly as he IS a seal. Its because they get the tabby pattern on the body too, and it gets colored, ie in practice; darkened already as young adult


Anyway, your cat is very handsome, whatever he be old type siamese look alike or pointed domestic shorthair...
If he likes to be handled and carried and doesnt mind lotsa of people around, you can try to participate in Cat Shows. Most Shows do have a class for domestics. He should do OK there.
Thank you!
Could you please elaborate on the difference between lynx points and ghost stripes? That's exactly where I'm failing to catagorize him. Do these come from different ancestoral origins or are the ghost stripes just a faded expression of the lynx phenotype? I can't see any faded stripes on his body. He has 5-6 dark strips on his tail, a few vertical strips on his forhead and chin and one bright vertical stripe on the back of each ear.
 

StefanZ

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These are because the genetics of tabby markings is more complicated than, feks, my pedagogical simplification. Which works fine for everyday practical usage, but sometimes it shines through its really much more complicated.

Look, my breed, RB, no tabby genes as long you can see (although you can discover occasionally a point gene) - per definition, they are purebbred, but once in the 50:ie they used some blue point siameses (of the old type).

OK, no tabby genes, but its quite common kittens of RB do have some ghost stripes. They are supposed to disappear with time, but its not always this happen. But adult RB with visible ghost stripes are considered as pet quality. They do not make no carrieer on Shows, and they avoid to use them in breeding. In the same way as the occasional RB with a white locklet on the chest.
 

lutece

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You can tell the difference between seal (solid) point and seal lynx point by looking at his face.

seal point vs lynx point.jpg

  • A seal (solid) point is genetically a solid black cat, with two copies of the colorpoint gene.
  • A seal lynx point cat is genetically a brown tabby cat, with two copies of the colorpoint gene.
 
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royschreiber

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You can tell the difference between seal (solid) point and seal lynx point by looking at his face.

View attachment 360111
  • A seal (solid) point is genetically a solid black cat, with two copies of the colorpoint gene.
  • A seal lynx point cat is genetically a brown tabby cat, with two copies of the colorpoint gene.
In fact, in your example the solid point seems to also have ghost strips, notice the M on his forehead. Is that then considered normal for solid seal points? I've never noticed this in any of the seal points I met in the past.
 

lutece

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In fact, in your example the solid point seems to also have ghost strips, notice the M on his forehead. Is that then considered normal for solid seal points? I've never noticed this in any of the seal points I met in the past.
Yes, ghost stripes like that are normal for young seal point cats. As he gets older, this area will fill in and darken. He may continue to have faint ghost stripes in adulthood, particularly on his tail.
 
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