Confused about Kitten's pattern

[i see fire.]

My friend's cat recently gave birth to kittens. Unfortunately, the parents are siblings, but an important thing to also note is that mom is a calico with less than 50% white and the dad is a ginger tabby with hardly any white as well. They also have a pointed gene in their genetics, as they produced a flame point kitten in their previous litter.

So with that being said, I am taking in their "pure white" kitten, as I wanted to get a pointed cat as our next family member. It is a male, and I say "pure white" because according to my friend, the kitten was born with just the tiniest hint of orange stripping on the legs and only the legs. So I tried to do a bit of research in both genetics and pointed breeds. From what I have seen, nearly all kittens that are pointed are born completely white, but I did see a few kittens that appeared to be newborns with the slightest color. So according to the information on genetics that I have read, this isn't possible with the exception of colorpoints. I know that the colorpoint gene is temperature-sensitive, and thought maybe he became rather cold in the leg area rather suddenly, or if any part of the mother's womb was cold if that is possible, but I kept getting searches on google about adopting kittens and such.

What is everyone's thoughts on this?

Anytime I look up things such as "white cat with orange legs" or "white cat with striped legs", I get flame points and lynx points. I do have an image, and it doesn't appear to be a kitten with fever coat either, but the image does not show the legs, just the face and a little bit of the back. I've also double-checked quite a bit with her and she has confirmed that the kitten is indeed completely white, with the exception of the legs. I'm really curious because I've never seen anything like this, and I've been looking up images of cats for the last seventeen years thanks to Warrior Cat forums. @_@ Is it just a stroke of luck in terms of unusual patterns, or a colorpoint?

Also, I had a really weird few weeks with this situation. She told me two weeks ago that her cat was pregnant, in which I told her that if she had any white ones, I want it. Then, hours before she gives birth, I told my friend's husband to "tell his girl to have them babies already", and then she gives birth hours later. I had found some pointed kittens that I was looking at just in case things didn't work out, and who also replied later in the day after the birth when I had been waiting for days to hear anything back about them. After speaking with her on the phone about an hour after the birth, I turned over, looked at my desk, and found a picture with a flame colorpoint staring at me from my other cat's microchip package. Then the following day, I see nothing but colorpoints. Everywhere I went, there was a colorpoint, in places where the algorithm wouldn't have put it there, such as Wayfair, Chewy, and Petsmart advertisements with cats photoshopped onto cat condos. I had a weird day and it has me even more hyped up. Someone help to quell me. xDD She is going to keep an eye on his ears the first few days as well, to see if there are any changes in color.

Disclaimer: My friend would love to have her cats fixed, and I'm even thinking about paying for the expenses myself due to not only this litter, but two other coworker's of mine also have two litters of kittens each, and at least one of them has four with two males and females, and both are indoor/outdoor cats. I literally had five different litters to choose from for the past month, it is crazy how many people at my work have unaltered pets. As well, it is also a lot of cats, and while we do have an AWESOME low cost spay and neuter facility nearby, I don't have the funds to spay and neuter all of their cats. I was thinking of reaching out to someone somewhere to see if something could be done for everyone (and that's if the one group will even accept the help) but I literally had the idea a few hours ago so I'm still trying to think it through and iron out the whole idea. The friend with the parents of the kitten I am receiving is actually not supposed to have pets in their apartment as well, so she hasn't been able to get them out to have them fixed. She doesn't know how they do it, but they never get into the windows or anything, so they have never been spotted, as the complex is very, very strict about this rule.

 

[i see fire.]

Honestly, my luck right now with this little guy is just through the roof. xDD

I just received a video from said friend of my little vanilla bean, and: 1. He's a chunker. 2. Pretty sure he is a colorpoint.

If anyone wants to continue to speculate though ... xD Here's some screenshots from the video <3

 

[Kieka]

Colorpoint coloration is the most likely situation. If both parents are carriers then it can happen even if neither of them are pointed themselves. Solid white doesn't skip a generation, since neither parent is solid white he can't be solid white (unless Dad is actually a different cat). Since he's a boy he gets his color from Mom so flame or seal point is possible with Mom being calico. You should start to see some color developing around 5-6 weeks old to know which way.

 

[i see fire.]

I'm fairly new to the genetics bit of cats, so thank you for clarifying! <3 It was the solid white portion that you spoke of that had me confused since I wasn't sure if it could be possible what with mom having the white in general, as well as the mom's owner that he has some stripping on the legs. She also had a pure black kitten, so that was another confusion for me. xD I don't see anything however from the video in terms of him having stripping, so I'm going to assume that it is his skin that she is mixing up with color. Definitely not a different dad, as they are both strictly indoor cats.

Thank you!! I'm hoping flame point, but even with a seal point, I will be happy either way. xDD Now I just have to hope that he survives, as the last kitten I was going to receive from another coworker ended up dying due to the mother moving him around the owner's home so much. However, this different owner is very good with litters, so I'm mostly expecting the worse due to what happened in the last situation.

 

[Kieka]

Solid white coat is a trait that the mom or dad has to be solid white for the kittens to be solid white. Solid white is the whole body being white which shouldnt be confused with the terms "and white" "bicolor" "with white" which all define different amounts and pattern to white fur. It doesn't skip generations so it doesn't appear without the parents being solid white. Male kittens get their color from Mom so the male kittens in the litter will either be orange or black and could have white as well (but not solid white). Females get their color from Mom and Dad, so all the females will have orange from Dad and either be tortieshell, calico or solid orange depending on what they get from Mom.

Since the kitten can't be solid white (neither parent is solid white) the kitten must be colorpoint by default. The white color being due to the colorpoint gene being heat sensitive and him being warm from being in mom making all the color fade from his coat essentially. As he grown out new fur and his body is cooler then in the womb his color will start to show. As a boy, that means either black (seal point) or orange (flame point) with a possibility of white spots/patches like mom has. On colorpoint cats the white areas stay white since they don't have a color to darken.

Stripes on the legs might be ghost marks, which is tabby patterning on kittens that doesn't stay with age, or could indicate he is tabby striped as well (lynx in colorpoint terms). Most likely he is going to be lynx colorpoint since Dad is a tabby but stranger things have happened and with inbreeding recessive traits are more likely. Or the "stripes" could have just been birthing fluid that wasn't fully cleaned off yet.

 

[i see fire.]

This is all very interesting and I appreciate you taking the time to educate on it! <3

So seal, flame or lynx point. All are fine with me <33 Is the lynx point that you are speaking of the coloring of lynx or flame with tabby markings? I read sometime last week that red cannot be solid and is always tabby.

Now when you say recessive traits, what do you mean by this? I knew about the colorpoint gene being heat-sensitive, which prompted my confusion in his "marking", but thank you for more info into it.

Sorry if I seem bothersome!!!

 

[Kieka]

This is all very interesting and I appreciate you taking the time to educate on it! <3

So seal, flame or lynx point. All are fine with me <33 Is the lynx point that you are speaking of the coloring of lynx or flame with tabby markings? I read sometime last week that red cannot be solid and is always tabby.

Now when you say recessive traits, what do you mean by this? I knew about the colorpoint gene being heat-sensitive, which prompted my confusion in his "marking", but thank you for more info into it.

Sorry if I seem bothersome!!!

Flame (red) or seal (black) would be color. Lynx is a coat pattern so it could be lynx flame or lynx seal. Lynx is tabby, same thing just different name because we be fancy when we are talking colorpoint terms (add on a fun accent in your head). Red is always tabby but sometimes tabby isn't as striped or spotty as people usually think and they end up looking more solid, which usually results in people calling them solid orange/red/cream.

Colorpoint is a recessive trait. In order for a kitten/cat to show the colorpoint in their coat it had to get one copy of the gene from Mom and one from Dad. If the kitten/cat only gets one copy of the gene then they will be a carrier of the trait but not express it. Since a colorpoint cat always has two copies of the gene, if both parents are colorpoint all the kittens will get two copies so all the kittens will be colorpoint. If one parent is colorpoint and the other is not colorpoint and not a carrier none of the kittens will be pointed but all will carry it. If one parent is colorpoint and the other a carrier, it's a 50% chance that any single kitten will be colorpoint. If neither parent is colorpoint but both are carriers it's a 25% chance that any single kitten will be colorpoint. If a parent is a carrier and the other is not, there is a 25% chance that a kitten will be a carrier. All recessive genes work in the same way that both parents have to give the kitten the gene for it in order for the trait to be expressed. When you talk about inbreeding the chances of a recessive gene expressing itself tend to increase since siblings have a higher chance of sharing the same recessive traits. The more inbreeding, the less genetic diversity and the greater the chance of recessive traits showing if they are in the family line. It's why purebred animals have more genetic problems too though because the genes are more similar and there is less variance making the weaknesses in the lines more apparent in offspring.

 

[i see fire.]

Huh, I always believed that Lynx point was a color, not a pattern, so this is very interesting to hear about! It is also making me rethink a lot of my characters on Warrior Cat forums since genetically, a lot of those characters are not possible. Oops. xDD

So essentially, I got semi-lucky that my friend's cat had another colorpoint in her third litter after having one in the second litter, as this would have been 25% chance of him being created. Now, due to them being siblings, you said: "When you talk about inbreeding the chances of a recessive gene expressing itself tend to increase since siblings have a higher chance of sharing the same recessive traits." Does this mean that the 25% chance was slightly increased because they are both siblings and share the same recessive trait, or stayed at 25%?

 

[Kieka]

Huh, I always believed that Lynx point was a color, not a pattern, so this is very interesting to hear about! It is also making me rethink a lot of my characters on Warrior Cat forums since genetically, a lot of those characters are not possible. Oops. xDD

So essentially, I got semi-lucky that my friend's cat had another colorpoint in her third litter after having one in the second litter, as this would have been 25% chance of him being created. Now, due to them being siblings, you said: "When you talk about inbreeding the chances of a recessive gene expressing itself tend to increase since siblings have a higher chance of sharing the same recessive traits." Does this mean that the 25% chance was slightly increased because they are both siblings and share the same recessive trait, or stayed at 25%?

Technically it was still 25% for each kitten in the litter to get the recessive gene from both parents (a lot of times you'll hear that 25% of the litter has the chance but really it's each individual kitten has a 25% chance). The increased chance in this case was that both parents were a carrier of the colorpoint gene and had a litter together. Cats who aren't colorpoint themselves have a very small chance of being a carrier, it happens of course but without knowing the family history its impossible to know unless they have kittens who are colorpoint. The chances of two cats who are not colorpoint both being carriers of the colorpoint and having kittens is also lower. Since they are siblings the chances that both of them are carriers of the colorpoint gene independently wasn't any higher, but the chances that either of them would find another non-colorpoint carrier was higher since they were together.

It doesn't increase the chances of a kitten having a recessive trait, but if there is inbreeding it increases the chances of any recessive trait in the line presenting itself. Over time you get less genetic diversity and rare problems become more common. Something that is recessive ends up getting carried by everyone over enough inbreeding instances and then it become common because everyone has the recessive. My girl comes from a very inbred colony, over time the colorpoint gene got spread throughout the colony as a recessive trait. For a few years there was just one of two kittens that were colorpoint, then one year half the kittens were and the three quarters were. Because the pointed gene was essentially being concentrated by inbreeding within the same gene pool and them all carrying or expressing it (also the colony caretaker selectively fed the colorpoint more to ensure they survived more so it was escalated). Colorpoint is a relatively harmless recessive trait but you do have defects and illness that are also recessive traits and they too get spread around in an isolated gene pool. Check out English royalty or Egyptian history, shoot even some American history of isolated communities, for examples of what can happen.

 

[i see fire.]

Wow, thank you so much for all that!! It was all very interesting and I've been watching videos on genetics most of the day. xD

I'll check back in the next few weeks with an update on little Vanilla Bean. <3 Thanks again!

 

[jen]

One thing to point out with expense of the neighbors neutering their cats... I mean everytime they have a litter, that is a whole round of kitten chow, litter, vet exams, multiple rounds of vaccines and dewormings.... that could be HUNDREDS of dollars. If an emergency or c-section is needed that could be thousands... Unless they aren't doing any of that of course, than it is just neglect and maybe you need to make some phone calls.

 

[i see fire.]

One thing to point out with expense of the neighbors neutering their cats... I mean everytime they have a litter, that is a whole round of kitten chow, litter, vet exams, multiple rounds of vaccines and dewormings.... that could be HUNDREDS of dollars. If an emergency or c-section is needed that could be thousands... Unless they aren't doing any of that of course, than it is just neglect and maybe you need to make some phone calls.

These are not neighbors, but co-workers and as I've already explained about the one home, it is nearly impossible for them to do so at this time because they are not suppose to have cats in the first place. Does this cause an issue, yes. Are the cats being neglected? To be honest, I can't say anything for the other two coworkers because I am not sure about how they raise kittens and care for their cats, but the one that I am getting the kitten from does everything she can to ensure that her cats are well taken care of.

I did mention to a seperate coworker that I would be willing to alter her animals for her, as her cats are truly a huge issue - compared to the other two groups - to an evergrowing problem; they are outdoor/indoor and there are two males and two females. She seemed inclined but did not further speak on it. Making phone calls would not do me any good, as I have no idea where they live or what their addresses are. I don't even know their last names.

I do agree that what you are saying is the best option. However, it is not something that can be done on one owners end, and not something that I can do other than suggest to them that they either alter their animals or allow me to do it.

 

[i see fire.]

Back to the main topic of this post though, 3 week old Summer does have color now!! It appears that he is indeed a flame point.

 

[mackiemac]

Faint "ghost markings" aren't at all unusual in young colorpoint kittens of any hue. As they get older, the ghost markings eventually get absorbed into the point color as it deepens. So, what appears to be a lightly marked lynx point may end up being a "solid-color" colorpoint… as in, flame, seal, chocolate, lilac, etc. without lynx markings.

I wonder if Summer might be a cream point? Cream is dilute red/flame. Those colors should intensify as he gets a bit older, and with cream/flame or chocolate/seal, it can be harder to tell until they age up a bit.

 

[i see fire.]

I'm not sure if his parents carry the dilute gene. His mother is a calico with ginger, no dilution, and his father is a ginger tabby, no dilution. However, I thought that all red/flame must also be lynx point though, as that color gene cannot be solid?

His older brother - Kane - does have red/flame, rather than cream and Summer is often noted as being a mini version of his older brother (both are colorpoints). I believe it is red/flame though, as I have a picture of him with darker points now - or this could be the lighting, but he is most definitely red/flame. He turns four weeks old tonight around 10 pm. But as you said, time will tell, and for red/flame, that could take well up to two years old.

Sorry, the one image is circled by the mom's owner. She was trying to point him out because he is sleeping in a pile of blankets.

 

[mackiemac]

Ah yes... definitely much more distinct coloring now! With the colorpoints, it's sometimes a surprise, since they're all born mostly white, though the paw and nose leather colors offer some clues. We had a lovely little lilac point Himalayan who was noted as "blue point" by her breeder... but then we looked at the leather, and it was lavender pink, not slate or bluish gray. Then her point colors came in fully, and had a slight pinkish cast to the darker areas, and we realized that she was indeed a gorgeous lilac! Our Tonkinese started off with lighter chocolate brown points, until around a year and "some months", when his self turned fawn and the points deepened a lot to a rich seal so he is a natural (seal) point... natural point in the Tonkinese is the same as seal in Himalayan and Siamese.

 

[lutece]

I'm not sure if his parents carry the dilute gene. His mother is a calico with ginger, no dilution, and his father is a ginger tabby, no dilution. However, I thought that all red/flame must also be lynx point though, as that color gene cannot be solid?

Yes, red and cream points will normally have tabby markings, even if they are genetically solid, since the non-agouti (solid) gene doesn't have the same effect on red-based colors as on the other colors.

 

[mackiemac]

Yes, red and cream points will normally have tabby markings, even if they are genetically solid, since the non-agouti (solid) gene doesn't have the same effect on red-based colors as on the other colors.

Exactly. This is kind of what I tried to say in my prior post, but I probably wasn't clear. In the case of flame/cream/apricot ("reds")… the tabby markings may be somewhat obscured and not distinctly visible once the rest of the point pattern fills in, but they are still present (just not easy to see). For the other colors which do express as solid/non-agouti, the ghost markings will absorb in as the colors deepen. This isn't quite the same as the red-tabby expression.

 

[lutece]

Exactly. This is kind of what I tried to say in my prior post, but I probably wasn't clear. In the case of flame/cream/apricot ("reds")… the tabby markings may be somewhat obscured and not distinctly visible once the rest of the point pattern fills in, but they are still present (just not easy to see). For the other colors which do express as solid/non-agouti, the ghost markings will absorb in as the colors deepen. This isn't quite the same as the red-tabby expression.

My understanding is that for the red-based colors, there is no observable difference between a cat that is genetically tabby, and a cat that is genetically solid, because the non-agouti (solid) gene doesn't have an effect on pheomelanin pigment. You wouldn't expect tabby markings to be obscured or filled in, even "somewhat." Both the genetic tabby and the genetic solid would have a red tabby (or lynx point) appearance.

 

[mackiemac]

What I was trying to say was "what we see with the eye". The tabby markings will still be there for a red-based kitty. We just have to look really close sometimes to see them. If the color is very intense, the tabby marking pattern may not be as easy to see with the eye, unless we're looking hard for it. Make sense?