Concerns about calcium and other things

[stealthkitty]

Hi all!

Thought I'd post here because I'd like some feedback regarding my cats' diet and some changes that I'm playing around with. The recent posts about the consequences of an unbalanced diet have really brought home the need to take care with what we're feeding our pets...

My kittens are now 6 months old and their diet is frankenprey. I use the frankenprey calculator from catcentric.org to make sure that they are getting the right ratios of meat, bones and organs. The main source of bone available to me is chicken wings, and I read somewhere that they are about 30% bone. So, when the calculator says they need (for instance, this week) 1.2 ounces of edible bones/day I triple that number and then weigh out that amount of bone-in chicken wing (the lower 2 parts, not the drumette), so in practice the cats would get 3.6 ounces of whole wing. I've been measuring out the bone in this way from the start, but just want to double-check that it's OK. It seems to work well, judging by the consistency of their poo.

Also, I've recently read about using egg shell powder for calcium instead of bones. This appeals to me since I (still) don't have a grinder and am finding it very difficult to do all the cutting required to prepare their food every week. For the last week or two, I've been skipping the chicken wings and instead I sprinkle egg shell powder over their food, 1/32 tsp per 1 ounce of meat, and 3/64 tsp per 1 ounce of organs. Does this amount stay the same even if I'm feeding beef or some other type of meat? And how vital is it that the amount of egg shell powder be precise? For instance, if I'm feeding 8 ounces of meat, is it a big deal if I mix in a scant 1/4 tsp egg shell powder, as opposed to a level 1/4 tsp?

Finally, in doing some reading to try to find answers to my questions, I came across a site that said it's "best not" to use beef heart in cat food, but it didn't elaborate and I couldn't find more information elsewhere. I understand why it's not good to use beef liver, but beef heart? Can anyone explain?

PS: Using egg shell powder is going to be temporary for me, since I'll be getting a grinder by October and will be able to use whole bones.

 

[mschauer]

My kittens are now 6 months old and their diet is frankenprey. I use the frankenprey calculator from catcentric.org to make sure that they are getting the right ratios of meat, bones and organs. The main source of bone available to me is chicken wings, and I read somewhere that they are about 30% bone. So, when the calculator says they need (for instance, this week) 1.2 ounces of edible bones/day I triple that number and then weigh out that amount of bone-in chicken wing (the lower 2 parts, not the drumette), so in practice the cats would get 3.6 ounces of whole wing. I've been measuring out the bone in this way from the start, but just want to double-check that it's OK. It seems to work well, judging by the consistency of their poo.

Works for me. 3.33 would be a more precise factor but 3 is probably OK.

Finally, in doing some reading to try to find answers to my questions, I came across a site that said it's "best not" to use beef heart in cat food, but it didn't elaborate and I couldn't find more information elsewhere. I understand why it's not good to use beef liver, but beef heart? Can anyone explain?

I've heard this mentioned before but I have no idea what it refers to. I did a side by side comparison of the nutritional profiles of beef heart and beef chunk and nothing jumped out as being something of concern. None of what I consider to be reputable sources mention any concern. 

PS: Using egg shell powder is going to be temporary for me, since I'll be getting a grinder by October and will be able to use whole bones.

But you'll still feed the whole bone in chicken wings regularly for dental health, right?

 

[stealthkitty]

But you'll still feed the whole bone in chicken wings regularly for dental health, right?

Oh yes, definitely; along with chunks of meat. One thing I really like about frankenprey is knowing it's so good for oral health.

Thanks for your input! It's very helpful.

 

[stealthkitty]

I was still wondering about how precisely I need to measure out the egg shell powder to balance the phosphorus in the meat when I came across a thread that showed that there's not necessarily a perfect proportion that needs to be reached, but rather a range that is acceptable. So, I'm going to just do the best I can to make sure I'm providing enough calcium without skimping.

But I also came across some conflicting information that I'd like to understand better. Some sources say that kidney shouldn't be used in place of "other excreting organs", but others say it's fine to use as  the "5% other organ" that's paired up with liver. That makes me wonder where exactly kidney fits into a raw diet; and which, specifically, are the organs that cats should be given in addition to liver? I know there is brain, spleen, pancreas and thymus. Are there any others that can be used?

 

[mschauer]

I thought Laurie would jump in with the information on how much eggshell to use since she has worked out an amount that is appropriate for multiple proteins. I'll see if I can find the information and post it. But, no, there is no precise amount of calcium needed. You just need to make sure it is more than enough to balance the phosphorus and isn't more than about 2x the phosphorus.

It is other "secreting" organs we are after and kidneys secrete hormones. I've always counted it as a secreting organ I don't why it wouldn't be considered one..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidney

 

[ldg]

Do you remember where you read that about the kidney? Because I find that very odd. Many PMR feeders use only liver and kidney, as for many of us, other organs are difficult to source. mschauer has analyzed the diet I feed my cats, and using only liver and kidney as the organs it meets AAFCO guidelines (though I know many PMR feeders disregard these).

As to the eggshell, the amount of phosphorus and calcium vary in each protein, organ, and cut of meat. But not enough to require a different measure of eggshell for each. The 1/32 teaspoon per oz of meat and 3/64 per oz of organ works for all of them.

If you like, PM me your email address, and I'll send the spreadsheet along. That way if you want to check anything else I didn't include, it'd be easy to add.

 

[ldg]

Do you remember where you read that about the kidney? Because I find that very odd. Many PMR feeders use only liver and kidney, as for many of us, other organs are difficult to source. mschauer has analyzed the diet I feed my cats, and using only liver and kidney as the organs it meets AAFCO guidelines (though I know many PMR feeders disregard these).

As to the eggshell, the amount of phosphorus and calcium vary in each protein, organ, and cut of meat. But not enough to require a different measure of eggshell for each. The 1/32 teaspoon per oz of meat and 3/64 per oz of organ works for all of them.

If you like, PM me your email address, and I'll send the spreadsheet along. That way if you want to check anything else I didn't include, it'd be easy to add.

 

[stealthkitty]

As to the eggshell, the amount of phosphorus and calcium vary in each protein, organ, and cut of meat. But not enough to require a different measure of eggshell for each. The 1/32 teaspoon per oz of meat and 3/64 per oz of organ works for all of them.

If you like, PM me your email address, and I'll send the spreadsheet along.

That way if you want to check anything else I didn't include, it'd be easy to add.

Thank you for this! I don't like the feeling that I'm just guessing about putting the cats' meals together so I try to be reasonably precise. You and mschauer have been wonderful!

 

[ldg]

Oh - one more FYI kind of thing. When mschauer analyzed the diet I feed, I put together the list and amounts of everything I feed over one week, because my rotation schedule is over a week. So the analysis just lumps it all together. On that basis, using 1/2 eggshell powder and 1/2 MCHA as the sources of calcium (though in practice I alternate them every two weeks - I also substitute some bone-in meals - and when I do this, I can't use any calcium supplement for a few meals or they get too much calcium and get constipated), the analysis indicates a Ca ratio that works out to 1.2:1.

 

[peaches08]

Are there any nutritional benefits to using eggshell calcium or MCHA? Please forgive me if this has been answered before.