Clostridium Difficile

[Meowmee]

Has anyone’s cat had cd and what did you do to treat it? Merlin, an obese, 2.5 yr old outdoor cat who came inside in August with normal poop suddenly developed runs about 1.3 months ago. All tests were neg until the 2nd pcr which was pos for c difficile. Dvm says it is an opportunistic infection which invades an already inflamed bowel. I can’t find much out about cd in cats, just one article linked here really which seems to say only two cats may have had runs from it.

Treatments he has had up until now have been, being wormed with drontel. After the first worming after he was retrapped after biting me in August he had some soft stool and it went away. Then I slowly started switching the dry food to a grain free dry and he had a bit of soft, stopped and it went away. Gave him a bit of Quinn’s home cooked, a tiny bit of loose, it went away. Then back to normal completely for quite a while. Then all of a sudden he had bad liquid runs several times per day. I started him on Quinn’s emergency flagyl and s boulardi.

Pcr and float were neg. treated with flagyl 2 courses. Wormed again. Number of movements reduced but poop stayed mush except for a few times when it got hard with a little mush.

We have tried now flagyl, s boulardi, forti flora, pumpkin, only poached chicken, only turkey, an earlier rc limited ing hydrolized lamb and peas which made him worse. He is now on Quinn's home cooked with ph, ff, s boulardi, and pumpkin plus cbd oil, as well as his kirkland. Also tried slippery elm and he was on pro pectalin for 2-3 weeks which may have helped a bit.

Last week I think before pos pcr for cd I started him on a prednisilone. Before that I gave him psyllium husk in Quinn’s home cooked and had added back his normal kirkand premium, and he had one totally dry hard movement with a little mush but he went right back to mush.

Now after pcr #2 with a pos cd he was on clavamox for 3 days and poop got worse. Started him on tylosan today and stopped clavamox. So far poop is not responding really and always goes back to mush even when it was formed a bit it is mushy except for that one large dried poop with mush at the end. The frequency did decrease though after the first course of flagyl.

What else can be done here? I don’t know if a poop transplant is possible since I can’t pill him.

 

[HUDSONPAT]

Found a very interesting article on CDI...heres link...Diagnostic and Therapeutic Approach to the Cat with Chronic Diarrhea - WSAVA2002 - VIN. Good luck!

 

[white shadow]

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Hi Meowmee.

There were two, very well-informed TCS members, "ldg" and "carolina", who posted prolifically while they were active on the forum. I'm going to give you two threads by them on treating C-Dif and a third in which I referenced those folks and provided links to the business they now run (where you could reach them) and a FB group that they run (post #18).

I'll say off the top, that I've not had personal experience w C-Dif.

And, from my reading of their threads, attention to detail is what will make all the difference for you.....skimming through most likely will result in status quo. As well, time and patience will be needed.

OK - here you are

• Saccharomyces Boulardii use for diarrhea and GI disease (incl IBD)
• Trouble in Raw Paradise - Clostridium perfringens and my cats
• Lifelong Chronic Diarrhea

If you were 'up for it', perhaps you could use this thread as a diary to document your journey with this, though, admittedly, that would be an exercise (though you will need to document in some way in any case).

Hope this may help in a very difficult process!


[@HUDSONPAT - just a note to you......that VIN piece dates from a 2002 conference....]
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[Meowmee]

Thanks. I have tried s boulardi and it did not help much if at all. Still using it and he still has runs, lol. It is certainly not a miracle cure by any means. I tried it myself for ibs and it made me a gazillion x worse as do 99.9 % pf probiotics lol.

I am not going to do a raw diet so I doubt their raw food biz/ ideas would help unfortunately. One of the posters said bad meat was the source of her cats’ cp prolly. I have tried the raw route before and it was a disaster, made my Wizard’s vomiting a lot worse so we stopped it. It is definitely not good for all cats and it can expose them to bacteria and parasites.

When Quinn was a kitten he developed runs etc from flea poison. He responded to flagyl after two doses each time tg, but ultimately I cured him with a home cooked diet, that and fussie cat are pretty much all he eats now.

I hope someone has other input because nothing else is working really. I need more than probiotic suggestions etc.

 

[Meowmee]

Found a very interesting article on CDI...heres link...Diagnostic and Therapeutic Approach to the Cat with Chronic Diarrhea - WSAVA2002 - VIN. Good luck!

Thanks,

Good article. A bit much for me to absorb right now in some of the tech areas about looking at parasites etc. It says that tylosin which he just started will treat c difficile so I hope it will help him. I really wish someone had a clue what is causing all of this because from what I read c difficile does not usually cause runs in cats and is usually in their system anyway. Maybe a poop transplant, but I don’t know how I can do that since he can’t be pilled. The odd thing is he does not appear to be sick at all. Other than the runs/ gas etc. And being obese. I just need to have some hope this is going to end soon because I am at my limit of what I can do at this point.

 

[HUDSONPAT]

Re: Tylosin facts...This medication will take effect quickly, in about 1 to 2 hours, but noticeable effects may take a few days to be recognized. I am praying for healing!

 

[HUDSONPAT]

Perhaps you could send your request to Cornell University College of Veterinary Medicine. Veterinary college, probably best in US.

 

[daftcat75]

Krista tested positive for clostridium perfringens this summer in a PCR. She had the squirts for a month.

What worked best for her was:

1. S. Boulardii, the Jarrow brand with MOS. She loves the stuff so that makes it easy. I give her as much as a half capsule four times a day which reduces the explosive diarrhea, several times a day, to loose stools once or twice a day.

2. Meat stock. Homemade. There is not a store bought bone broth or stock that will compare with homemade. The stocks or broth have inappropriate seasonings or vegetables and the bone broths, if they pass the ingredient test, are usually too dilute to be therapeutic. If you have a crock pot, cook meaty bones on low with a half teaspoon of apple cider vinegar and just enough water to cover. 10 hours for turkey. Probably less for chicken. Strain it and reserve 1/4 cup in the fridge and freeze the rest. It should set up like a jello. If it doesn't, it's too dilute. Use more joints and less water next time. If you have an Instant Pot, that cooking time is reduced to 1 hour. It is the collagens and gelatin from the connective tissues that I'm interested more than the minerals from the bones. Chicken feet are said to be the best for making stock because they have so many joints. Krista can't have chicken. Turkey necks are said to be good too. But I usually use turkey wings because they are easy to source from the butcher. Offer a spoonful several times a day. The fridge portion will last a few days to a week. When you are done with the fridge portion, thaw the freezer portion completely in a double boiler, stirring well. Then pour out another 1/4 cup (or however much you expect to get through in a few days to a week) and put the rest back in the freezer.

The meat stock helps with inflammation. The S. boulardii helps flush out the c. perf (or c. diff in your case) as well as make the gut less hospitable for it. It also has its own anti-inflammatory actions. And since it is yeast and not bacteria, it can be used in conjunction with antibiotics.

What didn't work was other probiotics. I have Pet Flora from Vitality Science. This is usually a very good probiotic. But combined with the s. boulardii, it makes things worse. I think the s boulardii makes the gut environment less hospitable for some of the strains in the Pet Flora.

Sort of worked? Raw with bone. Mostly in the form of Stella and Chewy's freeze-dried, pulverized and used as a topper. It slowed things down for sure. But it was also easy for it to swing things in the opposite direction. Krista would get constipated and then vomit from constipation and then we'd lose a couple of days to slow eating. And finally, when she started eating well again, the squirts came back. Maybe there's a magic amount of S&C that won't cause constipation. But neither me, nor Krista had the patience to find it.

Flagyl only worked for a day or two with Krista.

Homemade raw also worked well for Krista but it was difficult to keep up with because she was understandably not always hungry when I was ready to feed her. I think poached meat with meat stock would be a good alternative. Something easier to digest than regular food while you are working on flushing the c diff and controlling the inflammation with the meat stock and the s. boulardii.

 

[daftcat75]

If you stop at stage 1, the strained and retained liquid is meat stock. Continuing to bone broth is not recommended if his gut is already inflamed. The glutamate content is higher in bone broth than meat stock. Some individuals are more sensitive to glutamates than others.

Bone Broth Is Excellent Nourishment for Older Pets

Discover the benefits of bone broths for your pets, and watch Dr. Becker as she makes some for her lovely dog, Ada.

healthypets.mercola.com

 

[Meowmee]

Perhaps you could send your request to Cornell University College of Veterinary Medicine. Veterinary college, probably best in US.

Thanks. I will ask them. So far still mushy poop, no change yet with tylosan added in.

 

[Meowmee]

Krista tested positive for clostridium perfringens this summer in a PCR. She had the squirts for a month.

What worked best for her was:

1. S. Boulardii, the Jarrow brand with MOS. She loves the stuff so that makes it easy. I give her as much as a half capsule four times a day which reduces the explosive diarrhea, several times a day, to loose stools once or twice a day.

2. Meat stock. Homemade. There is not a store bought bone broth or stock that will compare with homemade. The stocks or broth have inappropriate seasonings or vegetables and the bone broths, if they pass the ingredient test, are usually too dilute to be therapeutic. If you have a crock pot, cook meaty bones on low with a half teaspoon of apple cider vinegar and just enough water to cover. 10 hours for turkey. Probably less for chicken. Strain it and reserve 1/4 cup in the fridge and freeze the rest. It should set up like a jello. If it doesn't, it's too dilute. Use more joints and less water next time. If you have an Instant Pot, that cooking time is reduced to 1 hour. It is the collagens and gelatin from the connective tissues that I'm interested more than the minerals from the bones. Chicken feet are said to be the best for making stock because they have so many joints. Krista can't have chicken. Turkey necks are said to be good too. But I usually use turkey wings because they are easy to source from the butcher. Offer a spoonful several times a day. The fridge portion will last a few days to a week. When you are done with the fridge portion, thaw the freezer portion completely in a double boiler, stirring well. Then pour out another 1/4 cup (or however much you expect to get through in a few days to a week) and put the rest back in the freezer.

The meat stock helps with inflammation. The S. boulardii helps flush out the c. perf (or c. diff in your case) as well as make the gut less hospitable for it. It also has its own anti-inflammatory actions. And since it is yeast and not bacteria, it can be used in conjunction with antibiotics.

What didn't work was other probiotics. I have Pet Flora from Vitality Science. This is usually a very good probiotic. But combined with the s. boulardii, it makes things worse. I think the s boulardii makes the gut environment less hospitable for some of the strains in the Pet Flora.

Sort of worked? Raw with bone. Mostly in the form of Stella and Chewy's freeze-dried, pulverized and used as a topper. It slowed things down for sure. But it was also easy for it to swing things in the opposite direction. Krista would get constipated and then vomit from constipation and then we'd lose a couple of days to slow eating. And finally, when she started eating well again, the squirts came back. Maybe there's a magic amount of S&C that won't cause constipation. But neither me, nor Krista had the patience to find it.

Flagyl only worked for a day or two with Krista.

Homemade raw also worked well for Krista but it was difficult to keep up with because she was understandably not always hungry when I was ready to feed her. I think poached meat with meat stock would be a good alternative. Something easier to digest than regular food while you are working on flushing the c diff and controlling the inflammation with the meat stock and the s. boulardii.

Thanks. I am not sure if you remember but you replied with this advice to my first post about Merlin’s runs. I tried all of that and it has not helped a bit, still mushy poop here. The frequency declined after the two courses of flagyl but that was it. Other than one mostly dried hard poop movement with mush and then total mush again. None of these natural remedies have helped at all. I am not going to do a raw diet. I have explained why above. 1- exposure to parasites and bacteria, a very bad idea for an already sick cat 2- made my Wizard a lot worse, more vomiting and eventually he wouldn’t even eat it.

 

[Meowmee]

If you stop at stage 1, the strained and retained liquid is meat stock. Continuing to bone broth is not recommended if his gut is already inflamed. The glutamate content is higher in bone broth than meat stock. Some individuals are more sensitive to glutamates than others.

Bone Broth Is Excellent Nourishment for Older Pets

Discover the benefits of bone broths for your pets, and watch Dr. Becker as she makes some for her lovely dog, Ada.

healthypets.mercola.com

I did the bone broth and it made his gas and runs a lot worse.