Chances of feral with blue eyes, genetics question

[bugmankeith]

On a nature site I found a photo of a blue eyed feral in the Philippines, except it has no Siamese DNA and isn't pure white. What causes this, and I presume its extremely rare to find? Would have been interesting for a cat world genetics study I saw on national geographic last year! http://www.projectnoah.org/spottings/17727050

 

[Willowy]

How would anyone know if the kitty has any Siamese DNA? :tongue2:: I don't think it's out of the question that the native Siamese cats may have made their way to the Philippines at some point and added blue eyes to the general cat population.

I have one with blue eyes, she's sort of pointed but doesn't really look like a pointed cat, if that makes any sense. She was a farm kitten and her mother was solid black, that's all I know. A barn cat on my uncle's farm always had pointed, blue-eyed kittens---she was a plain brown tabby. A friend has a red cat (not pointed, just a basic red tabby) with blue eyes, also a farm kitten. So it's not super rare.

 

[bugmankeith]

What I mean is the person knows no pure Siamese cats or cats with blue eyes are in area making it clear its parents weren't Siamese cats. Not saying Siamese DNA from past generations isn't possible, but even then it still makes this happening rare.

 

[Willowy]

2 brown-eyed humans can have a blue-eyed child, the blue eyes can come from several generations back. I have no idea if the genetics behind blue eyes in cats are in any way similar, though.

 

[StefanZ]

 A barn cat on my uncle's farm always had pointed, blue-eyed kittens---she was a plain brown tabby.

Now, that is interessant.  Even is she has one favorite, friendly tom, or a dominating tom, who IS pointed - not all kittens would be pointed.

Or do you mean, some of the kittens in every litter was pointed?  THIS is entirely possible yes.

Both by said favorite tom, pointed or just carrier,  or a very heavy percentage of carriers.

About TS  blue eyed in Philippine...  It may be so they do have some peculiar strain of cats down there... By natural selection or perhaps even their own mutation.   We cant know for sure.

I mean, I have a vague memory I had seen blue eyed photos of cats from down there, me too.

 

[Willowy]

Now, that is interessant.  Even is she has one favorite, friendly tom, or a dominating tom, who IS pointed - not all kittens would be pointed.
Or do you mean, some of the kittens in every litter was pointed?  THIS is entirely possible yes.
Both by said favorite tom, pointed or just carrier,  or a very heavy percentage of carriers.

Oh, sorry, yes, some of each litter were pointed. Not all of them. But one or two, in every single litter she had.

 

[maewkaew]

This is not that unusual.
The pointed gene ("cs") got widely spread throughout the cat populations in Western countries over the course of the 20th century ( after Siamese cats started being imported in the late 19th century). It's a recessive trait, so a kitten has to inherit 2 copies of cs , one from each parent, in order to show the coat pattern and the blue eyes that always go with it. If a cat inherits just one copy, that means they do not show the pattern but can pass on the gene for it to some of their kittens. ... and if a kitten gets it from the other parent too, they turn out with a pointed coat and blue eyes.

So this brown tabby girl is carrying one copy of pointed, and she must be mating with one or more toms who are either pointed (cs/cs) or are like her, not pointed but carrying one cs. In this situation it is pretty likely that at least some of the cats she is mating with are her own relatives. Roughly half of her kittens will either be pointed or carrying pointed. so if she mated with a son it would not be surprising there could be a pointed kitten or two in the litter.

BTW, If the kittens sometimes are solid black, or seal point without tabby, that means she's also carrying one copy of non-agouti, which makes solid instead of tabby, and just like pointed , it's recessive, so it means the kittens would have also got non-agouti from the father.

Re blue eyes in cats: There are a few ways a cat can get blue eyes; an absolutely sure way is to be pointed.
The other most common way is related to having a white coat or a partly white coat ( especially with a lot of white on the head). But the white cats are not always blue eyed. It depends on how the embryo develops.

 

[Willowy]

Ooh, cool genetics stuff!

OK, so these cats are long gone, it was about 15 years ago and farm cats don't live very long if not spayed and properly cared for. But anyway, the brown tabby's mother was a flashy calico, father unknown. The assumed father of all her kittens was their red tom, but of course any male could have wandered by. The red tom wasn't related to her, as far as anyone knew (he hopped in the back of the truck in town and went for a ride to their farm before anyone noticed), and most of her kittens died or were given away so I don't think she mated with her sons. And her brothers had also been given away so no mating there either. Her kittens were tabby pointed, so she must not have had the non-agouti gene. The non-pointed kittens were torties, tabbies---mostly tabbies. IIRC, one of her brothers was pointed as well.

So, with the cat in the picture, it's because of the white, right? What about the red tabby (no white) with blue eyes? How's that work?

 

[maewkaew]

So in other words, having blue eyes doesn't mean a white cat has Siamese ancestry, because the blue eyes can come from the same cause as the white coat, which is not related to the Siamese. It just depends on if they have the absence of pigment in the eyes like they have in the coat. Some white cats also have gold eyes, or green eyes, or they might have one blue eye and one gold or green eye.

In a white cat, the Dominant White (W) masks/overrules whatever coat color they might have otherwise had. So they actually COULD have 2 copies of pointed , and if so, the blue eyes COULD be due to that instead of Dominant White. (An example is the cats that are called Foreign White in some places. and just considered blue eyed white Oriental Shorthairs in other registries. Those cats probably have their blue eyes from the cs/cs , and are much less likely to be deaf than other blue-eyed white cats.

In a cat with a partly white coat, that's caused by a dominant gene for White Spotting (S) . and if they have blue eyes but are not pointed, the blue eyes are associated with the white, similarly to Dominant White but I think there is less risk of deafness.

What is very unusual is blue eyes in a cat that is neither pointed nor with white fur on their head.
That does turn up here and there in moggies due to some spontaneous genetic mutation. A while back people were trying to develop a breed from some random-bred cats like that, that had been found in the southwest US, but it turned out that breeding them together also resulted in birth defects.

 

[maewkaew]

The cat in that picture is stunning! The blue eyes must be associated with the White Spotting gene in that cat. What's unusual is the intensity of the blue. but that definitely does happen sometimes in random- bred cats.

The non white part of the coat also looks interesting. At first I almost thought the cat might be pointed and white. but the back looks too dark especially since the cat looks quite young. Maybe Brown Ticked Tabby and White?

A red tabby with blue eyes and no white - that has to be an unidentified mutation, as mentioned above. (though it may not be the exact same mutation as the cats that they were trying to make the breed Ojos Azules from. ) It is uncommon to see blue eyes in a cat without white or pointed. but it does seem to happen here and there (and with moggies on different continents, so it seems like it is happening separately. )

With the farm cats, from what you added there, it sounds like the red boy was probably carrying pointed or else she was maybe repeatedly mating with a tom from some other farm around there who had that gene and visited when she was in heat.

 

[lorie d.]

So in other words, having blue eyes doesn't mean a white cat has Siamese ancestry, because the blue eyes can come from the same cause as the white coat, which is not related to the Siamese. It just depends on if they have the absence of pigment in the eyes like they have in the coat. Some white cats also have gold eyes, or green eyes, or they might have one blue eye and one gold or green eye.

In a white cat, the Dominant White (W) masks/overrules whatever coat color they might have otherwise had. So they actually COULD have 2 copies of pointed , and if so, the blue eyes COULD be due to that instead of Dominant White. (An example is the cats that are called Foreign White in some places. and just considered blue eyed white Oriental Shorthairs in other registries. Those cats probably have their blue eyes from the cs/cs , and are much less likely to be deaf than other blue-eyed white cats.

In a cat with a partly white coat, that's caused by a dominant gene for White Spotting (S) . and if they have blue eyes but are not pointed, the blue eyes are associated with the white, similarly to Dominant White but I think there is less risk of deafness.

What is very unusual is blue eyes in a cat that is neither pointed nor with white fur on their head.
That does turn up here and there in moggies due to some spontaneous genetic mutation. A while back people were trying to develop a breed from some random-bred cats like that, that had been found in the southwest US, but it turned out that breeding them together also resulted in birth defects.

This is such an interesting thread and I'm assuming you're a breeder.  Look at the pictures of the cat in my avator...that's my RB cat Snowball.  He had blue eyes and the picture of him looking over his shoulder shows his coloring the best.  Snowball was born to a tortie mother who had the general apprearence of a Siamese, and in each of her litters she had a couple of kittens who  were pointed.  Also, the family that owned the mother cat always sent the kittens they couldn't find homes for to a relative's farm, so we know the mother cat wasn't reproducing with her own sons.  We had always thought Snowball was part Siamese.  Were we right?????

 

[maewkaew]

I wish i could see Snowball better . The avatar pics are pretty low res I guess. He looks like I bet he's a very pretty cat but I can't tell his color for sure. Looks like he might be Cream and White. or Cream Point and White . And either of those could easily have blue eyes

Yes Snowball almost certainly had a little Siamese ancestry in the background, since his mama was carrying pointed. The pointed pattern seems to have been unknown in Western countries before Siamese started being brought over. But over the past 100+ years, the pointed gene was spread through the general "moggy" cat populations in the West by Siamese and their descendants mating with the local cats. So by now there are many cats who have that pattern, or carry one copy of the gene for it, but have no recent Siamese ancestors and are way way way less than 1% Siamese.
I would guess that a lot of the spread of that gene happened in the mid 20th century when Siamese were at the height of their popularity and a lot fewer people got their pet cats neutered than today.

There are other cats around who do have a more recent Siamese ancestor, since it's still a popular breed and there are irresponsible breeders and owners. I've had a few adopted pointed cats from Siamese Rescue groups who had traits that suggest they might have a pretty significant amount of Siamese -- like a very low Siamese voice, a notably long body and long legs, head shape, etc. -- but also had traits not from Siamese like a good deal of undercoat, a fluffy coat, or heavy boning.

So technically, yes , he very likely had some Siamese back there. but it's hard to know how far back.

 

[arlyn]

I would suspect Ojos Azules, not saying that this is one, but a reminder that in the case of the O.A. , it was a natural breed, the foundation queen taken from feral population.
 

 

[maewkaew]

Well, the cat in that photos the OP linked to would not be Ojos Azules. It is not the result of an unusual mutation for a cat with a lot of white patches ( especially on the head) to have blue eyes.

If you meant some other cat that has blue eyes without either being pointed or white or with a lot of white markings, like the red tabby Willowy mentioned , then yes, it's possible that could be from the same kind of spontaneous mutation that caused it in the cats from the feral colony in New Mexico that the foundation queen for Ojos Azules came from.
I wouldn't actually call the cat an Ojos Azules. I guess it's a question of semantics with how one defines a new "mutation breed", but I have trouble with the concept that a cat, no matter its geographic origin, could be automatically defined as a "breed" based on a single unusual physical trait. That definitely would not be the same thing as a "natural breed" like the Turkish Van or Norwegian Forest Cat.

In the development of a new 'mutation breed', I do think they would consider other cats found with that trait to be potential candidates for breeding. So like potential new foundation cats for the breed.
Really Ojos Azules, although the project started over 20 years ago, are a long way from being fully accepted as a breed and it may never happen.
Frankly, it does not seem right to me to create a new breed that is based on a gene that causes death or severe health problems if you breed 2 cats who meet the breed standard.

@ Willowy : Is there any way he might have been a red point / red tabby point , but just did not have very clear definition between body and points? ( I was about to ask what color he was when he was born -- but of course you didn't SEE him as a newborn since the enterprising Mr Red Boy only showed up on the farm after hitching a ride in the truck! LOL!)

 

[feralvr]

That is an extremely beautiful cat, very stunning Noah is. I wonder if this was/is someones pet cat that has reverted feral? :dk: I do know that if my Perkins ever got lost people would think he was a feral cat. I also have a memory of someone else posting pictures of feral cats from the Phillipines with blue eyes, vaguely, as Stefan said above. I do see siamese in that cats bone structure and ears. I just hope that Noah has found someone to take him in. What a beauty. :love:

 

[monique]

Hi, I'm new to this site, and I'm really interested in what you're all saying.

First of all, I am living in the Netherlands, with my daughter and 8 adult cats, and at the moment 10 kittens.

For a couple of years I'm trying to get black cats with blue eyes.

And among the last kittens that were born (8) 2 of them are black and have blue eyes.

(and not because they're eyecolour hasn't changed yet)

All the other kittens eyes are turning green, and with those 2 the blue only gets a deeper blue colour.

A lot of people were saying it was not, but it is possible!

I would like to know more about the genetics for blue eyes, it is so difficult to find info about the

genetics for blue eyes (if it's not in combination with the siamese points), so that's why I was reading this topic.

I really hope you all can tell me more about the genetics, and I am sure to get a lot wiser!

Monique

(PS I hope I didn't make too many mistakes in my writing)

 

[StefanZ]

Hi Monique!  No language mistakes (we ARE an international forum), but where the genetic freaks do look, is usually in the breeders forums...    Although this thread did happened here.

So god you put your question here as it is similiar to your interest, but my advice is you present your breeding in the Breeders forum too.

Btw, you do have blacks with green eyes, but are straining after blacks with blue color.

I would say, blacks with green is exciting by itself. Esp if these blacks are "nicely made".

Welcome to our Forums!

Good luck!

 

[monique]

Hi Stefan,

Thanks for your reply.

I do have blacks with green/ blue eyes.

It's a kitten that's born here last year, a very beautifull male with a very friendly character.

And with the kittens I have now (6weeks old) I'm not really sure, but I think there will be.

Only the ones with blue eyes is very clearly visible.

I will post some pictures of my cats in the "new cats on the block" later.

(maybe today when I have some time left)

 

[oboon]

i have one white cat with blue eyes too and i got him from the street.. and i think his mom look like a siamese with the pointed colour (she's a stray in the neighbourhood and i think she's his mom) 

first time seeing a white cat with blue eyes (i never had a cat before and i just saw cats pictures on the internet) 

 i did curious for his colour then when i search the internet i found out it's all because of the gen thing and its not rare.. 

but i read some articles saying they usually deaf and infertile.. but i guess that isn't happening to my Oboon 

and i wanna ask something about the kittens, will they have white coat and blue eyes too? because i know my Oboon is seeing a cat next door and she got pregnant and have kittens but none of them have white fur and blue eyes but i still don't know if the kittens is Oboon's... I do realise i have to neuter him earlier but in my country neutering is not a priority and my parent said its cruel, so i haven't neutered him, but soon i will persuade them to do it..

 

[monique]

Hi Oboon,

I did not mean blue eyes with white fur, but blue eyes with black fur.

Seems to be very rare.

but sooo nice!