Cat intros...should I keep separating when I hear growling?

hbunny

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Wow.  If you didn't find fur, things in disarray, believe me, things were fine.  It sounds like it was the perfect opportunity for them to have "alone time" and create the relationship without outside influences.

Could you get a baby monitor camera or something similar to watch when you are not at home?  I have those and it helped ease my mind tremendously.  I think I found my 2 pack of motorolas at Walmart for about $80.  I can watch them using my cell phone when I am at work.  That way you can know for sure if you are influencing any behaviors if you can see them when you aren't there.

It honestly sounds like they are doing fantastic.  If they shared space for that long with no fur flying, you have it whipped.  I honestly don't think I would be worrying, just let them do their own thing, and only intervene if a "true" altercation is about to happen.  I mean Sunday until Wednesday?  That is a MAJOR accomplishment.  MAJOR.
 
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chloe92us

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Here is the scene I just walked in to. I feel they are choosing to hang out together now. We are still seeing some squabbles though, but more of this than that.
 
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chloe92us

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And at nap time.....funny story. The dog crate on the left is Skye's bed. He kicked the dog out, who now sleeps in the bed with me, and sleeps in it every single night and at nap time.

I just placed the cat carrier on top of it to vacuum, and Max tried to climb in there while Skye was napping in the crate below. Now Skye, being the territorial booger that he is proving to be, was having none of that. So you'll notice his upside-down exposed belly and leg in the cat carrier, and Max was booted out and curled up on the chair.
 
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calicosrspecial

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I LOVE that picture!! Thanks for sharing!!

I am with hbunny. Things sound great.

The key is always how they act after a dust up etc. If they act differently, hiding, slinking around, etc then there is a problem. If they act normal and are resilient things are fine.

With that said just keep up building their confidence (play, food, height and love), associating each of them with good things. And maximizing the positive encounters and minimize any negative encounters.

Keep up the great work!! Stay calm and confident and distract with play if needed but I think you are well on your way too success.

We are here for you if you need us. But great work. 
 

calicosrspecial

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I LOVE that picture as well. Fantastic. They trust each other. Sure they can have their dustups but they are sorting things out and respecting each other!! Love it.
 

hbunny

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I'm loving seeing those pics!  They are fine!!  I 100% agree with @CalicosRSpecial  if they move on after a squabble, it's all good.  Mine will smack each other for getting too close at treat time or whatever, and it's like nothing to them.  They will give or take a slap and a second later act like nothing ever happened.  Yesterday morning Shortstack and Tina were running, playing, and pouncing under our bed, around our bed, in and out...Wurp came in to the bedroom, and of course, him being deaf, really didn't notice anything.  They both pounced out from under the bed, startled Wurp, and he slapped both of them before they knew what hit them--one with the left paw, one with his right.  To be an old guy, he is still super-fast.  They just looked at him, then each other like "meh, party pooper", and carried on playing. Wurp went over under the highboy chest and drank water and ate some food.  Five minutes later they were all piled up on the bed going to their daily napping routine.  Wurp even let Tina wash him on his head for a bit.

I don't get it.  But I've learned to accept it and let them have their interactions.  Apparently a slap upside the head doesn't mean a whole lot in the cat world!!  If they are laying around like that in close proximity to each other, they've accepted each other.  They may not always agree, but I think it's a sign they both accept that they BOTH live there and cohabitate.  I think it is utterly AWESOME.  It will only get better from here on out.
 
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chloe92us

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Update: It has been 8 weeks and a few days since we adopted Max, and I think we have reached a point of acceptance. 

Ever since Max broke out of Alcatraz almost 2 weeks ago, they have been out together during the day.  They are still working out who's boss....but Max is usually submitting when Skye looks at him a certain way, and moves.  The cat trees are still a trouble spot, and the cat tunnels (we have 2 of each), so I have moved them into different rooms out of sight of the other.  I figure Skye can't protect BOTH at the same time from across the house, right!? 

Max has claimed the kitchen counters (unfortunately) and the top of dressers as his safe place.  Skye gets everything else LOL. 

Our house is much more peaceful now, and Max isn't swiping at the dogs as much anymore either.  He seems more confident and less spazzy with house noises.  All in all, I'm now pretty convinced now that things will be OK. 

Thank you all for supporting me during this time, which seemed like it was never going to end!!! 
 

calicosrspecial

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I am so glad things are going well.

Please remain vigilant. Keep working on building confidence, associating with positive things, and maximizing positive encounters and minimizing the negatives (distracting with play).

With that said I love separating the trees and tunnels.

I am glad to hear Max is going high (though I don't like the counters). Is he walking around confidently as well? No hiding? Tail up?

I think you are well on your way to success, I am so proud of all you have done. Please keep up the efforts and watch for any meaningful changes. There may be ups and downs but I am highly confident you will have success.

We are always here for you anytime. 
 
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chloe92us

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Step back update: they've regressed a bit this week with some chases and tumbles. No injuries or fur flying, and they break up on their own, and both seem fine after, but concerning.

Unfortunately these are happening when we are not in the room so we don't know what's precipitating the issue.

It is Skye doing the chasing though because max will typically run to his safe room under the bed. As soon as we walk in, he comes out.

I'm not sure if we should take a step back? I can't imagine taking space away now that they both have full run of the house.

This morning I heard fight sounds and ran out to the family room and they were both sitting there looking at me like "whhaaaat?". Then they both trotted off to the living room for a nap.
 
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calicosrspecial

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I am not too concerned. There will be ups and downs but here is why I am not too concerned. No injuries, no fur flying and they act normal after the "encounter".  Also, Max comes out from under the bed immediately when one of you enter the room. BUT I don't like that Max is retreating under the bed. I would like him to go up on the bed. Going up shows more confidence.

The key is really how they act after the "encounter". If they rebound to normal then it is not too concerning. If one is hiding, slinking around, etc. then we get more concerned.

Please keep building their confidence. Play, food, height and love.

Please keep us up on how things are going. We want to stop any negative setback before it really starts (if it starts at all). But from what I just read, I am not too worried.

Hang in there, we are here for you anytime.
 

hbunny

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I think everything sounds great!  Tumble and chases will occur, but like CalicosRSpecial said, it's the behavior afterwards that is the key to the relationship status!  I think you all are doing just fine
 
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chloe92us

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Step back again. A big step back. Things had been progressing, and we were seeing less chasing, stalking, etc. They were choosing to hang out together. They were even, what I thought was, play wrestling on occasion (one would walk up to the other and they would kind of bite each other's necks and bunny kick---no noise). Max has become much more bold and I have seen him now pursuing Skye instead of always the other way around. We are still keeping them separate at night (hubby is back to sleeping in guest room with Max) because they had a couple noisy wrestling matches last week.

This morning things went to a whole new level though. When I took the dogs for a walk, I noticed they were hanging out in my son's room on opposite sides of the room, just laying down. When I came back.....they were still on opposite sides of the room....in the exact spots they were when I left, but there was FUR ON THE FLOOR EVERYWHERE! Both of their necks were wet, but I didn't see any blood. Max had a claw stuck in his back. They obviously got in a huge fight! But why were they just sitting there?

I walked over to Skye, picked him up, and took him into the living room to look him over, and he did seem a little shaken. I locked Max in the guest room while I did that. Then I went in to check Max out and he was purring away and didn't seem upset at all. That's when I found the claw in his skin.

I had to go to work, so I kept him in the guest room. He was not very happy about being locked up in there! Not sure what to do now. My husband, who is most attached to Max, wants to take him back to the shelter. We are at the 3 month mark. :(
 

calicosrspecial

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MY outside ferals are wrestling around a lot, doing the whole arm around, take the other cat to the ground, bite the neck etc. Then they get over it and eat together. The key is how they act afterwards.

It sounds like they could have gotten into it. For what reason? Who knows. Were the windows open? I can't remember do you have ferals around?

Does one cat spend more time in your sons room than the other cat?

I would say the fact they were back in the same places tells me not to worry too much. If one was hiding, skittish, etc after "the incident" then it is time to worry more.

Step up play with them if at all possible. After play feed. Good play sessions. Make them hunt the toy, pounce/capture the toy, kill the toy, and then after this for a while feed treats or a meal. Do this all over the house. Also, make sure they have plenty of comfy places to hang out, sleep. Cat trees, window perches maybe. Give places so they can look out of the windows. Warm and comfy cat beds, etc. Scratching posts. And be as calm and confident around them as possible and give them love. Make sure you feed them together. We want to continue to associate them with good things (food especially) and we want to maximize the positive encounters and minimize any that could be perceived as being negative (distract with play or food or call their name in a stern confident voice not a yell).

If you see a chase or a stare if possible distract with play, something positive. Anything to diffuse the situation in a positive way.

Can you describe the wrestling matches last week? What happened before and after them?

I am not too worried (knowing what I have read). Any more info could be helpful. The trigger could have been a number of things, they were bored, they were overstimulated, etc. It is spring time and certain times of the year can cause this. Intact feral males could be coming around causing some insecurity and redirected aggression.

3 months is not a long time in the introduction world and it sounds like things are going pretty well. Things like this just happen sometimes. We need to watch, we need to continue to build confidence, and we need to watch how they act after. Please keep us up on the situation. But I am not worried and I don't see any reason to worry about re-homing anyone at this point.

Don't worry, I think you are well past the point where we know they will get along. They will get along (and it sounds like they are getting along) but with cats there are always dust-ups at some point in life (just like between people).

Please let us know, we are here for you.
 
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chloe92us

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Calico- you always make me feel better, thank you. These "dust ups" as you call them are always over territory. They just seem to take it to a physical level instead of just stare downs.

We live in a suburban neighborhood of homes on big lots. There is only one cat that is an outside cat, and he is old and neutered and is only out for about an hour a day.

They did this last week twice in the master bedroom, which is why hubby and Max moved back to the guest room. Hubby had gone to bed, and therefore had the door just cracked. Skye was "guarding" the door, Max came in, and Skye jumped him. Max yowled, they split up and ran off, and it was over. The master bedroom is a hot spot because Skye has always slept in there and it's his hang out room. Max had never slept in there until a couple weeks ago so they were having territory wars over the master bedroom.

They've already worked it out in most of the house, but our son's room hadn't been divided yet so that's why I think they had it out in there this morning. This was the worst one yet though. I have never seen fur on the floor like this. It was literally a handful when I picked it all up!
 

calicosrspecial

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Yes, they are working things out. It is a territorial thing. Very normal. The good news is they know where the line is. That is a good positive.

So Max was sleeping in the master bedroom. During this time where was Skye?

Does Max have to sleep with your husband?

What we like to do is try to associate the area and the other cat's scent with good things. So for example, depending on the history (the above questions) we would get an old shirt and get Max's scent on it then have it nearby when Skye is getting treats or love (as long as you are not at risk of being injured). So Skye associates Max's scent with something good. Also, step up play with each of them in the troubled area and feed after (site swapping). Then we will eventually get them together in the room distracting as needed and associating with good things (usually food/treats) and try to get them to get along.

What you are going through is normal and common and will be solved.

Please let me know about the questions from above and if you have any questions. It would be nice to get your husband back in his normal bed.
 

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Step back again. A big step back. Things had been progressing, and we were seeing less chasing, stalking, etc. They were choosing to hang out together. They were even, what I thought was, play wrestling on occasion (one would walk up to the other and they would kind of bite each other's necks and bunny kick---no noise). Max has become much more bold and I have seen him now pursuing Skye instead of always the other way around. We are still keeping them separate at night (hubby is back to sleeping in guest room with Max) because they had a couple noisy wrestling matches last week.

This morning things went to a whole new level though. When I took the dogs for a walk, I noticed they were hanging out in my son's room on opposite sides of the room, just laying down. When I came back.....they were still on opposite sides of the room....in the exact spots they were when I left, but there was FUR ON THE FLOOR EVERYWHERE! Both of their necks were wet, but I didn't see any blood. Max had a claw stuck in his back. They obviously got in a huge fight! But why were they just sitting there?

I walked over to Skye, picked him up, and took him into the living room to look him over, and he did seem a little shaken. I locked Max in the guest room while I did that. Then I went in to check Max out and he was purring away and didn't seem upset at all. That's when I found the claw in his skin.

I had to go to work, so I kept him in the guest room. He was not very happy about being locked up in there! Not sure what to do now. My husband, who is most attached to Max, wants to take him back to the shelter. We are at the 3 month mark. :(
It's not that big of a step back. I declared my guys "integrated" a few weeks ago. They tolerate each other, play chase and wrestle and generally either interact well or ignore each other. BUT, every two or three days there's a loud squawking fight. And then they are fine.
 
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chloe92us

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Yes, they are working things out. It is a territorial thing. Very normal. The good news is they know where the line is.

So Max was sleeping in the master bedroom. During this time where was Skye?

Does Max have to sleep with your husband?

Please let me know about the questions from above and if you have any questions. It would be nice to get your husband back in his normal bed.
When hubby and Max moved back into the master, Skye and Max were roaming around mostly. Skye would sometimes sleep by the door once Max went out almost trying to block him from coming back in. Max would sneak up on the bed (but he's still getting used to sleeping with the dogs- a whole 'nother story!) and then Skye would go lay in his bed.

Max does have to sleep near hubby or else he meows all night and keeps our son up (he's a light sleeper). Max and hubby are very bonded since they've been bed buddies for the past 3 months lol! We would LOVE to have hubby move back into the master, but when they had their little dust ups last week, we thought maybe we pushed things a little too fast and they moved back out.
 

calicosrspecial

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When your husband moved back into the master Skye and Max both had access to the master and roamed around the master and the rest of the house?

Where did Max and Skye sleep exactly?

How many encounters happened in the master (just the 2?) and what % of time did they get into something in there?

Did Max keep trying to go into the master after the dust ups? How did Skye act after the dust ups?

How exactly did each dust up happen? You described the one where Skye was guarding the door and pounced. What did Max do after that?

Skye is sleeping on a cat bed on the floor in the master?

Please do the scent swapping with Skye in the Master (getting Max's scent on an old shirt and giving Skye some treats with that shirt very near). We want Skye to associate Max with something good in that master.

Please let me know about the above questions. Hopefully we can get your husband back into the master sooner but I agree we can't rush things.
 
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chloe92us

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Yes, Skye and Max both had access to the entire house when hubby moved back to master. I don't think there was a lot of sleeping going on for either of them that week. There was a lot of roaming around.

There were only the 2 (recent) incidents (there were a couple incidents in there early on). The first was during dinner. We heard cat fight noises, ran in and Max had been chased off the bed and was sandwiched between the nightstand and bed, and Skye was on the bed staring down at him. I picked up Skye and we separated them both for a few minutes. They were completely fine after time out. And yes, Max went back and interestingly enough he now "claims" the bed. Hubby saw the 2nd one (protecting door), and we split them up at night again after that.

They can be in there together during the day no problem (the pictures in this thread are ALL in the master). In fact, it's one of the biggest open rooms in our house so that's usually where we have play sessions. It's definitely like they are working things out.....we used to have issues over the cat tunnels (had to take them away for now), cat trees (they seem to time share them now), the "cat room" (they share now and use all the same litter boxes), the hallway leading to the cat room (no problems anymore), the dog crate (Max won't go near it), and the dining table (that's Max's). So the master and son's room are the last areas to be divide up.

When Skye is in the master without Max he sleeps in a (open) dog crate (don't ask me why he chose that as his bed lol, but the dog now sleeps in bed with me) next to my bed. When I go to bed, he does. When Max is on his side of the house w/ hubby, they go to bed much earlier than me, and Max sleeps in bed on the pillow. Skye never sleeps in bed with us.
 
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