Cat intros at a standstill

calicosrspecial

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"K did a lot of crouching-cat-sniffing-cat (that's supposed to be a Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon joke) but she was much more subdued and nervous than I thought she would be. She refused to eat any treats at first, and after doing her scent rounds, she went to the door and asked to be let out, which of course I couldn't do." - This is normal as it is new territory. Trying to make it as positive as possible is what is important.

"She then only ate treats if I hand-fed them to her, she wouldn't eat them off the ground." - That is fine and great she did make a positive association.

"T ran up to the door and K hyper-focused on the crack, and they had a hissing/growling/pawing round. My partner reported that T was sort of tense but also sort of playing? To me, K was definitely not playing, and ignoring treats, and my reassurances. Her pupils were blown the entire time we were in T's room." - Yes, this happens, we want to try to avoid this so it isn't a negative encounter. But it is not the end of the world that it happened.

"My partner tried to get T downstairs, away from the door, and was only successful as long as he was good enough at distracting her with a toy - stop for one second too long and T was back at the door of her room." - Great. That is exactly the right thing to do.

"K spent the rest of the time focusing on the crack, patrolling, asking to be let out, and lying down. Toward the end she started eating treats off the ground, which I thought was good." - GREAT you turned a potential negative into a positive. WELL DONE!!!

"By the way, her scratching is more like stretching, she puts her claws out but pulls her paws away instead of dragging them down like what you would expect when you hear "cat scratching the couch"." - That is good, she felt comfortable it sounds.

"She didn't use T's litter box." - That is fine, shows she isn;t feeling territorially insecure.

"T on the other hand tried to use K's box many times but I think only ended up with one #1 and a tiny #2. From what my partner tells me she tried her best to conjure up more "stuff". I hope K isn't put off by it but I feel like K would prefer her litter box be private only to her (for example I feel like she wouldn't try to use T's...but just a feeling)." - T was feeling a little insecure probably. We'll see how K responds. If she is really secure she will be fine. Let us know what happens.

"Actually, we tried to limit this site swap to half an hour, but it ended up taking a full hour because we were both trying to get at least one of them into their carrier, so that we could swap back without them meeting. K will ignore even a mountain of treats if they're inside the carrier, because she knows it's a trap, but if you can pick her up you can generally drop her in and shut the zipper without much issue. But she has to let you pick her up. T is impossible to physically put into her carrier (and even if you could, she'd dash out before you could blink), she has to go in by herself, and usually we achieve that by putting food or treats inside. K didn't want to be picked up so I had to work at that for a while, and my partner was unsuccessful trying to entice T to enter her carrier fully.
Every time we fail to close up the carrier with T, it gets 75% more difficult to get her in there again, because she gets scared of the carrier, of us, of the treats, of everything. I say this in affection only: sometimes they are so smart...but sometimes they are so dumb... " - Just try to make it as positive as possible. Don't force things. It is all about making things as positive as possible.

"At the hour, K finally let me pick her up and I dropped her in, closed up the carrier, and out we went.
T ran back upstairs because she got scared of me holding K's carrier (large unfamiliar object, panic! panic!) so I put the gate up behind her, and let K out with a treat waiting. K ate the treat immediately, which I didn't expect given her earlier reluctance in T's room. But I guess she's so familiar with the downstairs area that she felt confident?" - That sounds really great. Yes, confident. SOunds really positive.

"
They both laid down here totally chill about a minute after we returned things to "normal". I don't know how long it would have gone for because I wanted to reward them with treats, but was too clumsy and accidentally threw a treat to T which bounced off the gate to land near K, who got up because she wanted the treat...I ruined it. " - they look great here. AN EXCELLENT sign!! GREAT job on the site swap.

"The "swap" itself I feel like didn't go that well" - Totally disagree. I thought it was an excellent site swap. Went better than I would ahve thought. They are in a better place than you think.

"I am wondering if the closed door stressed K out more than it would have if we had put the gate up instead. " Probably but for safety it had to be done and she did well in time. Over time she did really well.

I am really happy with how they did and how they reacted after (always watch what they tell us). I am really proud of them and you and your partner. Did a GREAT job!!
 

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This was T's first time exploring the kitchen area - she sniffed around a lot but that's about it, which is par for the course in a new setting.
K did a lot of crouching-cat-sniffing-cat (that's supposed to be a Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon joke) but she was much more subdued and nervous than I thought she would be. She refused to eat any treats at first, and after doing her scent rounds, she went to the door and asked to be let out, which of course I couldn't do.
She then only ate treats if I hand-fed them to her,
she wouldn't eat them off the ground.
'crouching-cat-sniffing-cat'....lol....I love this reference. I'm glad you explained this reference...or I would have thought 'Kung Fu Panda' for some odd reason. :biggrin: I haven't seen Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon in years. It was fantastic. (just looked it up...cannot believe it came out in the year 2000. Where did the time go?)

That kind of sounds like what I'd expect K to do.
K probably had no idea why you'd suddenly want to just hang out in T's room, and not be where all the action is...downstairs.

I find cats actually hate having 'closed doors'. (okay, 'hate' is too strong a word. ...maybe more like 'dislike'.)
(My own cats will meow at a closed door, be it a bedroom, or french glass door on one of the rooms. They can see inside, through the glass, but they still don't like it to be closed.)
I think cats like 'all access ...all the time'.
T ran up to the door and K hyper-focused on the crack, and they had a hissing/growling/pawing round. My partner reported that T was sort of tense but also sort of playing? To me, K was definitely not playing, and ignoring treats, and my reassurances. Her pupils were blown the entire time we were in T's room.
Again, to me...this is totally normal. K being hyper-focused on the crack, is what I'd expect her to do. It shows she's engaged, and wants to have further access.
It's really good that T came up to the door, and did that playing/pawing, too.
T on the other hand tried to use K's box many times but I think only ended up with one #1 and a tiny #2. From what my partner tells me she tried her best to conjure up more "stuff". I hope K isn't put off by it but I feel like K would prefer her litter box be private only to her (for example I feel like she wouldn't try to use T's...but just a feeling).
" From what my partner tells me she tried her best to conjure up more "stuff"."...
...'conjure up more "stuff" '....Your partner and you come up with the 'best lines'. I can just picture T trying to do that. :crackup:
Idk...the last time that T used K's box turned out okay, so I imagine that K would not mind. K sounds like she didn't have to really use the litter box, since she was too busy guarding, and listening at the door.
Actually, we tried to limit this site swap to half an hour, but it ended up taking a full hour because we were both trying to get at least one of them into their carrier, so that we could swap back without them meeting.
I'm sort of glad it was an hour, or longer, since half an hour would go by too fast.
K will ignore even a mountain of treats if they're inside the carrier, because she knows it's a trap, but if you can pick her up you can generally drop her in and shut the zipper without much issue. But she has to let you pick her up.
T is impossible to physically put into her carrier
(and even if you could, she'd dash out before you could blink), she has to go in by herself, and usually we achieve that by putting food or treats inside.
K didn't want to be picked up so I had to work at that for a while, and my partner was unsuccessful trying to entice T to enter her carrier fully.
Every time we fail to close up the carrier with T, it gets 75% more difficult to get her in there again, because she gets scared of the carrier, of us, of the treats, of everything.
I say this in affection only: sometimes they are so smart...but sometimes they are so dumb...
Yes, I find that my cats, if they do not want to be picked up...suddenly become like a ton of bricks, or iron weights....they somehow know how to press their bodies down, or 'magnetize' themselves to the floor. I swear it's like they suddenly weigh more.
Other times, it's absolutely no problem to pick them up.

Haha....think about it from the cat's perspective....Why would our cats want to go 'inside' a carrier and be zipped up?
It's not like the carrier is a fun place to be. Often times it leads to places they just don't want to go.
If it were a fun cardboard box, where they can jump in and out of...then I'd think it'd be different.
Boxes are fun...carriers...not so much. :hmmm: :lol:

You're doing an amazing job at desensitizing your cats from fearing the carrier.
(I have to do this more, with my cats. They didn't mind it so much, when they were small, and would even play around it, but now, they tend to avoid it, if I just leave it out on the floor, a week before going to the vets.
I'll try what you are doing, and leave it out more often...with treats or cat toys inside.)
At the hour, K finally let me pick her up and I dropped her in, closed up the carrier, and out we went.
T ran back upstairs because she got scared of me holding K's carrier (large unfamiliar object, panic! panic!) so I put the gate up behind her, and let K out with a treat waiting.
K ate the treat immediately,
which I didn't expect given her earlier reluctance in T's room. But I guess she's so familiar with the downstairs area that she felt confident?
I think you're right about how important being familiar with a place, and feeling confident is for a cat.
Though I thought that the room used to be K's old room, so maybe she was just too excited about the whole new process, and this made her not want to eat upstairs, at first. Or maybe K didn't want to be distracted from the sounds on the other side of the door.
So after the site swap we had two cats with their "feathers" ruffled, but there was one more surprise:

IMG_20200105_204819.jpg


They both laid down here totally chill about a minute after we returned things to "normal".
I don't know how long it would have gone for because I wanted to reward them with treats, but was too clumsy and accidentally threw a treat to T which bounced off the gate to land near K, who got up because she wanted the treat...I ruined it...:bawling:
P.S. K's "winter fur" in full effect...I swear she normally does not look so round. Somehow she manages to maximize her size when she is lying down.
This is fantastic to see! Oh, wow, ...do I love these photos. :woo:
No, you didn't ruin anything. :alright: :thumbsup: Your aim might be a little off, in the 'treat throwing competitions', but you'll work on it. :lol:
(I used to underhand slow pitch in highschool softball, okay 30+ years ago, but still...now I can't aim my 'cat treats' either. It's a skill. Thankfully our cats don't laugh at us.)

As for K's 'winter fur'....yes, it's so true that it does maximize when lying down....she looks totally relaxed there.
And you know, it's totally the 'camera angle', too.
(All those models on magazines, are photographed from so many different angles, using different lighting techniques, filters, lenses,..and then photo-shopped too. I'm not into photography,...just read a lot.)
I also think our digital cameras/phones add about 10lbs or more, to people photos...so naturally, they make our animals look bulkier, too.
The "swap" itself I feel like didn't go that well, but since they both relaxed afterwards I feel like it's a good sign? What do you think?
I am wondering if the closed door stressed K out more than it would have if we had put the gate up instead. They were almost acting like when we first brought T home and had her closed up in the room, except this time the places were switched.
I think that the 'swap' went fantastically well, and that last photo of yours proves that.

But sure, try doing the 'site swap' using the gate, in the doorway, if you can manage to secure it well, and then K will have free sight of looking out the doorway.
You just might end up feeling a little bored in the room, unless you have some cool 'arts and crafts' projects to do.
Just experiment with the 'site swaps' and have fun.
The more you try it, the easier it will become.

If you manage to get those great moments at the end...then it's all worth it.
 

calicosrspecial

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"I find cats actually hate having 'closed doors'. (okay, 'hate' is too strong a word. ...maybe more like 'dislike'.) " - Cats are territorial so any time territory that they have access to or own and is "taken away" with a closed door can be an issue. So that is very common and normal. Just try to make the experience as positive as possible with play, or food, or love. As cats get more confident and the territory lacks of access is temporary they get more accepting. I think K did a great job with it.
 

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calicosrspecial said:

And the more confident T is the less K will feel the desire to "attack" her. A confident cat is less likely to attack or be attacked.
At first when you mentioned this, I didn't quite understand (cats wanting to attack another, more timid cat, that acts like "prey"). I had kind of thought that it might be alright for T to be more scared/nervous, because then K could easily establish herself as Her Majesty the One and Only Queen. But now that T is less skittish and I'm watching their interactions, I can see how it makes sense that a more confident cat would help the relationship.
A acari and C calicosrspecial ...I actually, too, used to think that having one cat more dominant, and the other more submissive would be okay, in that if one wanted to fight during play, then the other cat would run away.
And having one more relaxed, while the other was stronger or slightly aggressive would not be as big a problem. (wrong thinking on my part.)
I saw confidence as being... 'building confidence' for a cat concerning their area,...and not necessarily ....within themselves.
So I really didn' t grasp the entire concept, of the 'building of confidence'.

Now...I see the point that C calicosrspecial was making, also, ..about having "confidence" in cats. And building 'confidence in both cats' during cat intros...in order to prevent either cat from wanting to fight with each other, or be too rough in play.
It does make total sense, that two confident cats are not likely to want to 'playfight too roughly', so as not to get injured, and that when they meet, one cat will not be too timid, or too fearful of their new territorial friend.

Thanks for pointing this out A acari .
"I find cats actually hate having 'closed doors'. (okay, 'hate' is too strong a word. ...maybe more like 'dislike'.) " - Cats are territorial so any time territory that they have access to or own and is "taken away" with a closed door can be an issue. So that is very common and normal. Just try to make the experience as positive as possible with play, or food, or love. As cats get more confident and the territory lacks of access is temporary they get more accepting. I think K did a great job with it.
It's so informative how you explain things, C calicosrspecial .
Extremely helpful how you break it down, and show how the concepts apply, and different behaviour patterns are seen.
I also admire that you mentioned that you are self-taught, and bring all those ideas from your own observations, and apply them to different cat problems.

My guess would be that in working with ferals...that you have to emphasize the 'trying to get the feral cats to accept humans as good', and emphasizing the 'socialization with humans', more so than anywhere else.
I'm not sure how long this takes, with a true feral, but I imagine any small step would be rewarding.
Do your feral cats, outdoors, tend to bond with one another...meaning do they 'have favourites' and like being together?
Or do they more converge as a group?

I know that you are busy, C calicosrspecial ....and that the above questions have more to do with socializing of ferals, than they do with building confidence....although I can see that you'd have to do both...in getting them to accept you, or other humans.
Anyway, you don't have to answer the above.
Just wanted to say thanks for explaining things in the various posts/threads.

You are also very motivational, too. :)
 

calicosrspecial

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Thank you very much for the nice words, you are too kind.

It gets really tricky and nuanced.

A confident cat can be submissive. The confidence can allow them to be more tolerant, accepting, etc. But not all submissive cats are confident. If that makes sense. And a dominant cat can be confident and not attack, bully etc. A dominant cat is not in of itself bad as hierarchy always exists. It is more the confidence base that will cause us trouble. A cat lacking confidence is more likely to attack or act like prey and be attacked. So I believe that building a cat's confidence tends to solve a lot problems (and as you rightly point out it is territorial (area) confidence as well as confidence in themselves).

"It does make total sense, that two confident cats are not likely to want to 'playfight too roughly'" - "Rough play" can and does happen between two confident cats. But the fact that it doesn't escalate into real fighting or other bad behavior (anything negative after) is a sign that the confidence is there and there is a base level of trust etc.

"that you have to emphasize the 'trying to get the feral cats to accept humans as good', and emphasizing the 'socialization with humans', more so than anywhere else." - I think I started off by trying to get ferals to "accept humans as good" as I had hope that I could eventually find them homes. But since it is hard to find homes for all these cats I really struggle with the best way to do it. For example, if they are going to be "living on the streets" it might be best to try to maintain their "skittishness or street smarts" so that they are at less risk of being in danger. So true ferals are rarely seen. They are in the "shadows" typically. This allows them to avoid humans and possible predators. When we/I tend to start giving food and socializing them with food then we possibly heighten the risk to their safety. So I really struggle with how best to interact with ferals and the best way to take care of them while making sure they remain cautious and alert to threats.

"Do your feral cats, outdoors, tend to bond with one another...meaning do they 'have favourites' and like being together?" - Absolutely.

"Or do they more converge as a group?" - But they are a colony so they get along with everyone. But some are closer to other cats. So think of it as a family as I think that is how best to describe it. We have a family with parents, brothers and/or sisters, relatives etc. We love them all typically and would do anything for them but we tend to spend more time with certain family more than others. But we accept them in our homes, with our food. But some we would rather sit next to and converse while others can be at the other end of the table.

I actually enjoy trying to intro ferals into the colony. It is hard and doesn't always work but when it does it is very rewarding. Since ferals in the wild are even more territorial than inside cats (since it really is an existential threat) in my experience it really does teach me a lot about what cats are all about. It is a very interesting learning experience.

Ferals are just housecats that are in the wild. Everything else is the same. They just have had different experiences and have different histories and defense mechanisms but ultimately I believe all cats just want to be loved and will respond to love (eventually).

Hopefully that helps a little. I don't think there are right ways or wrong ways. I think whatever works to make lives better is the right way. There are a lot of paths to the destination.
 

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A confident cat can be submissive. The confidence can allow them to be more tolerant, accepting, etc. But not all submissive cats are confident. If that makes sense. And a dominant cat can be confident and not attack, bully etc. A dominant cat is not in of itself bad as hierarchy always exists. It is more the confidence base that will cause us trouble. A cat lacking confidence is more likely to attack or act like prey and be attacked. So I believe that building a cat's confidence tends to solve a lot problems (and as you rightly point out it is territorial (area) confidence as well as confidence in themselves).
Yes, this does make sense, and explains why you advise the necessary steps involved, in building up the confidence base level of cats.
"Rough play" can and does happen between two confident cats. But the fact that it doesn't escalate into real fighting or other bad behavior (anything negative after) is a sign that the confidence is there and there is a base level of trust etc.
Building confidence, and 'building a base level of trust'....yes, that makes sense.
"that you have to emphasize the 'trying to get the feral cats to accept humans as good', and emphasizing the 'socialization with humans', more so than anywhere else." - I think I started off by trying to get ferals to "accept humans as good" as I had hope that I could eventually find them homes. But since it is hard to find homes for all these cats I really struggle with the best way to do it. For example, if they are going to be "living on the streets" it might be best to try to maintain their "skittishness or street smarts" so that they are at less risk of being in danger. So true ferals are rarely seen.
Ahh, okay. So it's better for the true ferals to be left alone, socially, but provided with food or shelter when cold, so that they can maintain their 'street smarts' and not become too trusting of humans. So True ferals do far better in their own environments and not getting stressed with too much human interaction.
They are in the "shadows" typically. This allows them to avoid humans and possible predators. When we/I tend to start giving food and socializing them with food then we possibly heighten the risk to their safety. So I really struggle with how best to interact with ferals and the best way to take care of them while making sure they remain cautious and alert to threats.
I guess what I tend to get confused about when reading some of the threads in the Feral forum, is that some members will mention 'ferals'...but really mean 'stray cats'...since as you said..."true ferals are rarely seen".
Yeah, I can see how you'd want the best for them, but at the same time maintaining their independence, caution, and alertness.

I'd still see it as a good thing, though, since without you (or others) helping them out, they'd have a far more difficult time in obtaining food. You still make their lives a lot easier and better.
They're surviving, and living, so that says a lot.
Bottom line is you're making a difference in their lives.
"Or do they more converge as a group?" - But they are a colony so they get along with everyone. But some are closer to other cats. So think of it as a family as I think that is how best to describe it. We have a family with parents, brothers and/or sisters, relatives etc. We love them all typically and would do anything for them but we tend to spend more time with certain family more than others. But we accept them in our homes, with our food. But some we would rather sit next to and converse while others can be at the other end of the table.
Haha...yes, some you'd want to 'sit at the other end of the table', for sure. :blush: :evilgrin: :argue: :footinmouth::agree:
Since ferals in the wild are even more territorial than inside cats (since it really is an existential threat) in my experience it really does teach me a lot about what cats are all about. It is a very interesting learning experience.
Ferals are just housecats that are in the wild. Everything else is the same. They just have had different experiences and have different histories and defense mechanisms but ultimately I believe all cats just want to be loved and will respond to love (eventually).
Do you mean ferals are "similar to" housecats, but live in the wild? Perhaps once strays that had to adapt to being wild, or born wild?
Hopefully that helps a little. I think whatever works to make lives better is the right way. There are a lot of paths to the destination.
So true.
 

calicosrspecial

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"Ahh, okay. So it's better for the true ferals to be left alone, socially, but provided with food or shelter when cold, so that they can maintain their 'street smarts' and not become too trusting of humans." - Well, I am struggling with this as to what is best. IF homes can be found then I think socializing is a great way to advance to that goal. If a home is not possible then I really struggle with what is best. I have socialized my ferals and have to make a positive associations to new cats coming around to my colony. But for other colonies I am not sure what might be best. Let's leave it as a question mark rather than a definitive statement as I am not sure what really is best.

"So True ferals do far better in their own environments and not getting stressed with too much human interaction.: - No, I am not saying that. I think true ferals are just like regular cats and find human interaction rewarding. Done right I believe human interaction reduces a feral cat's stress. My concern is that human interaction could make them vulnerable as they could be de-sensitized and be at risk of harm from some humans. :/

I think people sometimes exchange the terms feral and stray. I think it is nuanced in my mind. To me a feral is a cat born outside and has only know the wild where as a stray is most likely a cat that had a home at one time. But that is in my mind. I would just ask for the poster's clarification on the terms.

Well I worry that feeding/providing food easily can make a cat "soft" and possible lessen their hunting skills. If a cat relies too much on a human. I don't think it is a high risk but it is something I worry about. Mouse is actually a perfect food for cats. The right protein and moisture. But I think providing food helps them be more confident, possibly more healthy, make their life a bit easier. I do think feeding/taking care of them is a good thing but I do worry about negatives. But I come out that it is the right thing.

"Do you mean ferals are "similar to" housecats, but live in the wild? Perhaps once strays that had to adapt to being wild, or born wild?" - I think they are the same other than their living conditions. They still have the same instincts, respond to love, etc. It is like 2 humans one lives in a mansion and one is homeless. They both have the same DNA, the same emotions, desires, etc. It is just one was luckier than the other regarding where they were born etc.

For example, for cats (all cats) we play and then feed to build confidence because that is what cats do in the wild. So we play with them (they are hunting) and then they pounce on the toy (they "kill") then we feed them (they eat the "kill") and then they will groom and go to sleep. The only difference is we have a toy for the inside cats whereas the outside/ferals have mice or birds. They all stalk, and pounce and "kill. The the inside cats we give them food while the outside/ferals eat the "toy which is a real mouse or bird". And since this is a survival instinct it builds that confidence. It is like when humans accomplish something ( a task or a piece of knowledge) it builds confidence and leads us to better things (typically).

Does that kind of make sense?

Now these are my beliefs. I could be way off. I think take in as much as possible and determine what you think works best. And most importantly observe the cats and how they respond. That is the best way to learn in my opinion. The cats will tell you what works and what is just theoretical.
 

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"Ahh, okay. So it's better for the true ferals to be left alone, socially, but provided with food or shelter when cold, so that they can maintain their 'street smarts' and not become too trusting of humans." - Well, I am struggling with this as to what is best. IF homes can be found then I think socializing is a great way to advance to that goal. If a home is not possible then I really struggle with what is best. I have socialized my ferals and have to make a positive associations to new cats coming around to my colony. But for other colonies I am not sure what might be best. Let's leave it as a question mark rather than a definitive statement as I am not sure what really is best.

"So True ferals do far better in their own environments and not getting stressed with too much human interaction.: - No, I am not saying that. I think true ferals are just like regular cats and find human interaction rewarding. Done right I believe human interaction reduces a feral cat's stress. My concern is that human interaction could make them vulnerable as they could be de-sensitized and be at risk of harm from some humans. :/

I think people sometimes exchange the terms feral and stray.
I think it is nuanced in my mind. To me a feral is a cat born outside and has only know the wild where as a stray is most likely a cat that had a home at one time. But that is in my mind. I would just ask for the poster's clarification on the terms.

Well I worry that feeding/providing food easily can make a cat "soft" and possible lessen their hunting skills
. If a cat relies too much on a human. I don't think it is a high risk but it is something I worry about. Mouse is actually a perfect food for cats. The right protein and moisture. But I think providing food helps them be more confident, possibly more healthy, make their life a bit easier. I do think feeding/taking care of them is a good thing but I do worry about negatives. But I come out that it is the right thing.
Thank you for touching on the many issues involved. I can see that it could be a struggle, in thinking what is best...but in all honestly, it's the fact that you are doing something, taking action,....that seems to matter most.
If you take it day-by-day....are the cats better or worse. I'm thinking a lot better. You're providing them with food, and love/caring.
In their lives, I'm sure that matters.

But your other points are important too, about how they hunt mice/rodents/small prey and all.
And making them 'soft or de-sensitized or vulnerable' to not-so-good humans can be a worry, except you cannot control that.
Some worry is probably good, ...some... not so much.
"Do you mean ferals are "similar to" housecats, but live in the wild? Perhaps once strays that had to adapt to being wild, or born wild?" - I think they are the same other than their living conditions. They still have the same instincts, respond to love, etc. It is like 2 humans one lives in a mansion and one is homeless. They both have the same DNA, the same emotions, desires, etc. It is just one was luckier than the other regarding where they were born etc.
Oh, okay, I'm understanding that now. Good example.
Thanks for the clarification.
For example, for cats (all cats) we play and then feed to build confidence because that is what cats do in the wild. So we play with them (they are hunting) and then they pounce on the toy (they "kill") then we feed them (they eat the "kill") and then they will groom and go to sleep. The only difference is we have a toy for the inside cats whereas the outside/ferals have mice or birds. They all stalk, and pounce and "kill. The the inside cats we give them food while the outside/ferals eat the "toy which is a real mouse or bird". And since this is a survival instinct it builds that confidence. It is like when humans accomplish something ( a task or a piece of knowledge) it builds confidence and leads us to better things (typically).

Does that kind of make sense?
Yes, it makes a lot of sense.
Now these are my beliefs. I could be way off. I think take in as much as possible and determine what you think works best. And most importantly observe the cats and how they respond. That is the best way to learn in my opinion. The cats will tell you what works and what is just theoretical.
I totally agree that our 'cats will tell us what works and what is just theoretical'. :agree:
And our cats can teach us so many lessens for our own lives, if we just watch and learn, too.
Thanks, C calicosrspecial , for this great discussion, today.
Not only have I learned about 'confidence in cats' ...but a whole lot more. :blackcat::caticon::catrub:
 
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"The "swap" itself I feel like didn't go that well" - Totally disagree. I thought it was an excellent site swap. Went better than I would ahve thought. They are in a better place than you think.
It was good to hear this from you, thank you for the soothing words! And the swap the day after went well too (more later), but the one today not so much (also more later).
I'll try what you are doing, and leave it out more often...with treats or cat toys inside.)
With K I'm not sure - it's just that if she allows you to pick her up, she doesn't struggle very much when putting her into the carrier and you can just kind of squish her down into it to zip it closed.
With T it really is a matter of exposure, but maybe it was easier because she's young still.
We got them both these soft carriers that zip up, which I kind of regret now because a hard-sided carrier with a door that can just click closed would be much better/easier.
Anyway, back when T was super into her food (she's less so now) I put her dish inside so she would have to step in, then I would touch the carrier door. She'd dart out at the smallest movement, see that nothing was happening, then go back to her food.
I would touch the door again, she'd run out, repeat. Eventually she wouldn't react to the sound of me reaching for the door...so I would lift a corner. She would run out, I'd put the corner down, she'd see that nothing was happening, and go back to her food.
When I was working on closing the door, if she turned around I would immediately open it again in case she wanted to run out. And eventually she decided it wasn't worth it to run out...eventually she decided it wasn't worth it to turn around...eventually she decided it wasn't worth it to stop eating even if the carrier was being picked up...
I have to work on her being alright with the carrier without food, maybe with treats only, and I have to work on her being alright with going into it when she's not already in her room. But I'm sure it's possible...just need enough hours in the day!
Though I thought that the room used to be K's old room, so maybe she was just too excited about the whole new process, and this made her not want to eat upstairs, at first. Or maybe K didn't want to be distracted from the sounds on the other side of the door.
The room was K's old room, but she hasn't been back there since T arrived, and like I said she hardly ever even goes upstairs anymore. Lately, since we've been feeding her a bit less to help the weight thing and balance out all these introduction treats, she's been coming to our door in the morning to (very quietly) ask for breakfast.
I mentioned it before, but she used to come up every day to (loudly) ask for breakfast, and she stopped for a while when we brought T home. But now that she's hungrier...

==========

So I think two nights have passed since I last posted - first, thanks for the discussion you had about feral cats and just cat behavior in general! Very informative.

Second: Feeding
We are continuing to feed them at the gate, moving them closer and closer. Tonight was with K right up at the gate, and T eating one stair above. I'm not sure there's room on the bottom step for T so this might be the closest we can get.
K is fully unbothered, actually, which is surprising.
I think C calicosrspecial is really spot on about T being the one who needs more time and confidence (though they can both use it).
T has been eating her food slowly, looking up at every noise or movement, looking at K. Something that is odd to me but might make sense to you is that when K is done with her plate and has walked away, T will try to reach a paw out to touch the plate? She usually has some of her own food left, and there is usually nothing left on K's plate, so I don't know what she's reaching for?
She has also done this when K is still there, watching, and interestingly enough K doesn't react. Maybe K doesn't care because she knows she's already eaten all the food that's there?

Third: Site swaps
Both nights since my last post have been a mixed bag.
Yesterday night was better I feel, K seemed to warm up more quickly and was less worried (but still anxious). This session went an hour and a half, and she stretched out on T's heating pad (pictures for your benefit).
IMG_20200106_210811.jpg IMG_20200106_211300.jpg IMG_20200106_212648.jpg
But during this session she also tried to get out and put her paws up on the gate - and it wasn't weighed down well so it started tipping, thankfully I was there to catch it and keep the barrier in place.
Tonight felt like it was worse, because she really tried to paw through the gate, seemingly looking for escape, and ignoring my reprimands.
Both nights, if she wasn't "relaxing", she was hyper focused on watching for T, and would run to the gate (defensively?) if T appeared. But what was really frustrating was that tonight, after she was let out of the room, with the gate back up at the bottom of the stairs - when T came down to see what was going on/say hello, K crouched down and ran at the gate aggressively. Seemed to me like she was taking out her emotions on T.
K is again being really frustrating because if she won't eat her treats, won't let me pet her, won't play, I have no way of making the site swap a positive experience other than talking at her, which I feel is a negligible positive. I just don't know how to make her feel comfortable and/or happy.
T on the other hand is having a grand time I think, my partner reports that her tail is now up when she is exploring the "new" area (kitchen), and she really likes our balcony window and chewing our curtains and playing/running in a bigger open space. She flops down on her side to watch K when she feels like coming upstairs but hasn't been too insistent on interacting with her - maybe too distracted with all the different things she can do.

I am aware that it has only been a few days since we started the site swaps so these are probably normal ups and downs and it'll even out over time. Still! :sniffle:

Anyway here is a bonus picture of K from tonight, she is crouched on top of T's "house" (cat tree).
IMG_20200107_211241.jpg

Finally, I wanted to mention that T is feeling a lot more comfortable with us and sleeping outside of her room. We sit on the stair landing with our laptops to keep her company, and she will sleep there sometimes, next to us. She usually wakes up if we move or leave, but today she actually stayed sleeping there even though I went back to K's side.
Here are pictures for your time:
IMG_20200103_163329.jpg IMG_20200103_164221.jpg IMG_20200103_164442.jpg IMG_20200105_173422.jpg
 

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"thank you for the soothing words!" - Remember, it is just the truth in the words. If it was a problem I would tell you that.

"And the swap the day after went well too (more later), but the one today not so much (also more later)." - Great that another swap went well. I will take a look at the one that did not and address it later. Remember, there are always 2 steps forward and 1 or 2 or even 3 steps back at times. It is never linear.. Totally normal.

"Anyway, back when T was super into her food (she's less so now) I put her dish inside so she would have to step in, then I would touch the carrier door. She'd dart out at the smallest movement, see that nothing was happening, then go back to her food.
I would touch the door again, she'd run out, repeat. Eventually she wouldn't react to the sound of me reaching for the door...so I would lift a corner. She would run out, I'd put the corner down, she'd see that nothing was happening, and go back to her food.
When I was working on closing the door, if she turned around I would immediately open it again in case she wanted to run out. And eventually she decided it wasn't worth it to run out...eventually she decided it wasn't worth it to turn around...eventually she decided it wasn't worth it to stop eating even if the carrier was being picked up... I have to work on her being alright with the carrier without food, maybe with treats only, and I have to work on her being alright with going into it when she's not already in her room. But I'm sure it's possible...just need enough hours in the day!" GREAT job on this. Exactly the right way to do it.

"
We are continuing to feed them at the gate, moving them closer and closer. Tonight was with K right up at the gate, and T eating one stair above. I'm not sure there's room on the bottom step for T so this might be the closest we can get.
K is fully unbothered, actually, which is surprising." - AWESOME!!!! Continue with this. Positive association and positive encounter. GREAT!!

"T has been eating her food slowly, looking up at every noise or movement, looking at K. Something that is odd to me but might make sense to you is that when K is done with her plate and has walked away, T will try to reach a paw out to touch the plate? She usually has some of her own food left, and there is usually nothing left on K's plate, so I don't know what she's reaching for?" - It could be as simple as "the grass is greener on the other side". I would have to see the body language. Cats LOVE what other cats have.

"She has also done this when K is still there, watching, and interestingly enough K doesn't react. Maybe K doesn't care because she knows she's already eaten all the food that's there?" - This is FANTASTIC!! Or maybe K is realizing that T is not a threat or anything negative. Either way it is really positive. Exactly what we are looking to achieve.

"Yesterday night was better I feel, K seemed to warm up more quickly and was less worried (but still anxious). This session went an hour and a half, and she stretched out on T's heating pad (pictures for your benefit)." - This is GREAT. Relaxing in T's territory. Positive association and positive encounter. GREAT body language. And isn't K ADORABLE?!?!?!?!?!?!

"But during this session she also tried to get out and put her paws up on the gate - and it wasn't weighed down well so it started tipping, thankfully I was there to catch it and keep the barrier in place." - Sounds like it didn't end with negativity so not an issue.

"Both nights, if she wasn't "relaxing", she was hyper focused on watching for T, and would run to the gate (defensively?) if T appeared. " - That is normal, that is why we continue to do this so over time they get de-sensitized and build that trust. As long as nothing negative happens (fight) then it does build trust.

"K is again being really frustrating because if she won't eat her treats, won't let me pet her, won't play, I have no way of making the site swap a positive experience other than talking at her, which I feel is a negligible positive. I just don't know how to make her feel comfortable and/or happy." - Remember human emotions are really important. Stay calm, confident and loving to her. Talking to her (Love) is a positive. It doesn't "have to be" food or play. There are multiple options to make things positive. Judging by K on the heating pad she sure was doing well at that time. So you are doing something right.

"T on the other hand is having a grand time I think, my partner reports that her tail is now up when she is exploring the "new" area (kitchen), and she really likes our balcony window and chewing our curtains and playing/running in a bigger open space. She flops down on her side to watch K when she feels like coming upstairs but hasn't been too insistent on interacting with her - maybe too distracted with all the different things she can do." - This is FANTASTIC. T being more confident will help in the process.

"Anyway here is a bonus picture of K from tonight, she is crouched on top of T's "house" (cat tree)." - She sure looks great to me here in this pic. K seems to be doing really well with scent and territory. Now we just need to improve the sight (visual). It will happen.

T sure looks like she is loving life. A cat sleeping like that is very comfortable. That is a great sign.

T is so ADORABLE!!! Not only sleeping like that but just her look.

Maybe I am not getting the whole picture but I see a lot of great progress. It is a process so there are blips. But I always watch how the cats are acting and it sure seems like they are doing very well. Watch how they act after a perceived negative encounter. If they rebound quickly then it really isn't that negative. So if K runs to the gate and paws and they are calm right after then it is actually a positive as a negative was avoided. Make sense?
 

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With K I'm not sure - it's just that if she allows you to pick her up, she doesn't struggle very much when putting her into the carrier and you can just kind of squish her down into it to zip it closed.
With T it really is a matter of exposure, but maybe it was easier because she's young still.
We got them both these soft carriers that zip up, which I kind of regret now because a hard-sided carrier with a door that can just click closed would be much better/easier.
Anyway, back when T was super into her food (she's less so now) I put her dish inside so she would have to step in, then I would touch the carrier door. She'd dart out at the smallest movement, see that nothing was happening, then go back to her food.
I would touch the door again, she'd run out, repeat. Eventually she wouldn't react to the sound of me reaching for the door...so I would lift a corner. She would run out, I'd put the corner down, she'd see that nothing was happening, and go back to her food.
When I was working on closing the door, if she turned around I would immediately open it again in case she wanted to run out. And eventually she decided it wasn't worth it to run out...eventually she decided it wasn't worth it to turn around...eventually she decided it wasn't worth it to stop eating even if the carrier was being picked up...
I have to work on her being alright with the carrier without food, maybe with treats only,
and I have to work on her being alright with going into it when she's not already in her room. But I'm sure it's possible...just need enough hours in the day!
Yes, that 'needing enough hours in the day' part is so true. :)
I think your gradual exposure method to the cat-carrier is really good.
I've never even thought of placing a food dish inside...so will try this, too, thanks.
We got them both these soft carriers that zip up, which I kind of regret now because a hard-sided carrier with a door that can just click closed would be much better/easier.
It's interesting, because I originally had smaller hard-sided carriers, before, but didn't like how I had to swing open the gate, and then one of my previous cats (Spotty) would somehow wedge himself inside, and not want to come out, in the vet's exam room. We had to sort of tilt the carrier, and even then he managed to stay inside. Then I placed a soft cat-blanket inside, and would slide the blanket out...well he somehow caught on to this trick, and stepped off the blanket, and still remained in the carrier. (Spotty was very inventive when it came to carriers.) I used to have to turn the plastic bolt-type attachments that held the upper half of the carrier to the bottom. (There were like 12 of these small plastic bolts, which easily turned, but I ended up losing a few, so resorted to using plastic zip ties. Ugh...that whole production was time-consuming.)

I was thinking about buying a soft-sided carrier, because of the lightness to them, but I also wanted hard-sided protection, and then I saw a lady at the vet's office roll her two cats on some type of dolly, each within their own hard-carriers. She just used some bungee cords to secure the carriers to the aluminum folding dolly, and told me that they were actually small dog carriers. So I waited for a sale, then bought them. (Still have not found the dolly yet, ...if I find one under $30 CAD then I'll get it.)
The room was K's old room, but she hasn't been back there since T arrived, and like I said she hardly ever even goes upstairs anymore. Lately, since we've been feeding her a bit less to help the weight thing and balance out all these introduction treats, she's been coming to our door in the morning to (very quietly) ask for breakfast.
I mentioned it before, but she used to come up every day to (loudly) ask for breakfast, and she stopped for a while when we brought T home. But now that she's hungrier...
Ah, yes, I'm not sure why they think we'll jump out of bed and feed them at some strange morning hour. :sleep:
(My female cat is worse, though, since she'll meow outside my door, but knows that my sister wakes up at around 5am.
Why not just meow outside her door, then?)
T has been eating her food slowly, looking up at every noise or movement, looking at K. Something that is odd to me but might make sense to you is that when K is done with her plate and has walked away, T will try to reach a paw out to touch the plate? She usually has some of her own food left, and there is usually nothing left on K's plate, so I don't know what she's reaching for?
She has also done this when K is still there, watching, and interestingly enough K doesn't react
. Maybe K doesn't care because she knows she's already eaten all the food that's there
I have no clue about this 'touching the other plate', either. But it does sound kind of cute. :blackcat:

(My female Tepaul, used to shake her front paws, one at a time, (sort of similar when people shake out the water from their hands after doing the dishes, except my cat does it one paw at a time.), when she does not like the flavour of her wet food. She makes it very, very clear that the flavour is not to her liking. She'll shake out her front paws, then sort of move away from her bowl.

"reach a paw out to touch the plate"....hmm...maybe T is trying to tell the humans that the plate needs refilling? lol.
Perhaps T is indicating that the plate must now be washed. Or T is determining if the food was identical to her own meal? :yummy:

(T does sort of reminds me of the 'servants from Downton Abby', in the black and white uniforms, ..so maybe she's telling K that she'll clear the plate, once she's finished.) (Okay, well, you did mention in a previous post, about K wanting to be or acting like "Her Majesty"...so hence the 'Downton Abby'....line of thinking.) :biggrin: This so does not help you...I know...but I'm just stumped by T's action.
It's not something I've ever seen before. Pawing at water, yes...touching another cat's plate...no. :gingercat:
Yesterday night was better I feel, K seemed to warm up more quickly and was less worried (but still anxious). This session went an hour and a half, and she stretched out on T's heating pad (pictures for your benefit).

But during this session she also tried to get out and put her paws up on the gate - and it wasn't weighed down well so it started tipping, thankfully I was there to catch it and keep the barrier in place.
Tonight felt like it was worse, because she really tried to paw through the gate, seemingly looking for escape, and ignoring my reprimands.
Both nights, if she wasn't "relaxing", she was hyper focused on watching for T, and would run to the gate (defensively?) if T appeared.
But what was really frustrating was that tonight, after she was let out of the room, with the gate back up at the bottom of the stairs - when T came down to see what was going on/say hello, K crouched down and ran at the gate aggressively. Seemed to me like she was taking out her emotions on T.
The photos look great to me. First one, K looks attentive and listening. Second, she looks relaxed and chilled. Third, K looks dreamy and sleepy. They look really good. You're there to hear, and see her actions, so maybe your take is more accurate and different.

I was wondering when either cat was going to try to 'escape the gate'.
I think that K might be pawing at the gate more often, so as to 'tip it over'. If the tipping worked the first time, then more than likely, K would have attempted it again. Cats try something, see the outcome....try it again. They get results that way.

K could have been taking out her emotions on the gate, rather than T,...but at this stage...I think it's more 'playing'.

I forgot to comment on the "K playing video GIF" because I wanted to compare it to T's style of playing.
From what I remember, T seems to flop around a lot, and sort of attack the toy, with less paw strikes.
K is more focused with using her paws in that GIF. She is so fast and strong with her paws, and at one point takes her 'toy/trophy' away, proudly walking after 'capturing it'. She mesmerized me with all her paw actions. I enjoyed how she played.
K is again being really frustrating because if she won't eat her treats, won't let me pet her, won't play, I have no way of making the site swap a positive experience other than talking at her, which I feel is a negligible positive. I just don't know how to make her feel comfortable and/or happy.
K looks totally positive in your photos, to me,...so I don't think K has to eat treats, get pets, or play while there.
You don't really have to talk to her, if K is more excited about listening to what is going on outside the gate.
Unless you think that K is getting agitated.

It's good to reassure K, but at this point....just K being able to relax in the room, tells me that you're all doing well.
T on the other hand is having a grand time I think, my partner reports that her tail is now up when she is exploring the "new" area (kitchen), and she really likes our balcony window and chewing our curtains and playing/running in a bigger open space. She flops down on her side to watch K when she feels like coming upstairs but hasn't been too insistent on interacting with her - maybe too distracted with all the different things she can do.
Haha...everything sounds good...except for the 'chewing the curtains' part. That is so typical kitten behaviour.
Curtains must be like Weeping Willow tree branches that hang down, to cats. Cats must think, 'why would humans put curtains around their windows, or showers, unless it's to be climbed, played with or chewed'. Curtains must remind them of playing with wide soft fabric belts, ropes or string. It has to be explored, and tasted. If some fabric is hanging there, then it must be there, to be played with.

Explore, touch, and taste....the joys of a kitten's life. Oh, and like you said...run, run, and run some more.
I am aware that it has only been a few days since we started the site swaps so these are probably normal ups and downs and it'll even out over time. Still! :sniffle:

Anyway here is a bonus picture of K from tonight, she is crouched on top of T's "house" (cat tree).
Wow. K looks so thoughtful in that pose, on top of the cat tree. :loveeyes:
You really take beautiful photos, from all sorts of angles. :cloud9:
Finally, I wanted to mention that T is feeling a lot more comfortable with us and sleeping outside of her room. We sit on the stair landing with our laptops to keep her company, and she will sleep there sometimes, next to us. She usually wakes up if we move or leave, but today she actually stayed sleeping there even though I went back to K's side.
Here are pictures for your time:
To sleep out in the open like that....that just says pure comfort and trust, to me. :)
T is so adorable. I didn't realize that she has such fluffy paws. :blush:
I knew her tail was floofy, and I like how she curls it around her, like her very own blanket or cape. :blackcat:
 
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acari

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Remember, there are always 2 steps forward and 1 or 2 or even 3 steps back at times. It is never linear.. Totally normal.
Thank you for the reminder...still...it's really exasperating!
For example at this moment, K has left 75% of her wet food, presumably because she doesn't want to eat at the gate. It doesn't seem like she's bothered by T, she just...doesn't want to.
And my partner might have caused this (and part of why feeding upstairs didn't work before) is that we returned her plate to her normal eating area with the last 10% of food or scraps, to get her to finish it, and this happened last night.
So now I feel like she thinks, "I don't have to eat at the gate if I don't want to, they'll just move my plate over anyway."
But I know she's hungry because she's been begging for food constantly now that we're feeding her less to help her lose some weight...but she's apparently not hungry enough to eat her favorite wet food now? Really.
[I just had to get up to discard the food because it's been out for too long - when she saw me take the plate, she came over thinking I would put it down for her at her usual spot.]
Do you think maybe I'm misinterpreting this and she is bothered by T, and we should maybe move it back from the gate before moving it forward again? I honestly think that she doesn't care about T but is being a brat/wanting to return back to normal.
So if K runs to the gate and paws and they are calm right after then it is actually a positive as a negative was avoided. Make sense?
Yes, that does make sense, especially in combination with T gaining confidence, and maybe not backing away or returning right after. Then it is sort of a positive.
Something like this kind of just happened at the gate, I will upload the video in another post to see what you guys think.
(Spotty was very inventive when it came to carriers.)
cat nap cat nap Thank you for sharing about Spotty! Sounds like he was too smart for his own good. Haha!
(Still have not found the dolly yet, ...if I find one under $30 CAD then I'll get it.)
Just in case you haven't thought of it yet - have you checked any used/secondhand sites, or stores? Is there Craigslist in Canada?
T is so adorable. I didn't realize that she has such fluffy paws. :blush:
Yes, her paws are super fluffy. I might have to trim the fur between her toes because she's not nearly as neat as K using the litter box, and two nights ago she smushed...something...and we had such a hard time cleaning it (in the end, we wiped her foot about a million times with her running away each time, which got it wet enough eventually, so she licked her foot and cleaned it herself).

==========

A quick update:
K in T's room last night was much better, though around an hour in she got anxious and wanted to be let out.
Near the beginning though, K was at the gate, T came up, and K started huffing and lifting a paw, sort of waiting to strike...but T just flopped over and rolled around a lot, clearly for K's benefit.
I think T rolled around so much that it confused K, because K didn't end up pawing at the gate.
Then T got bored and ran off, but I think it was a great interaction.

K ended up playing a tiny bit in the room and she marked a few things. Which by her standards is really significant, I think.

I think what we'll do is continue the swap for a few more days since we can only do about an hour each time. Then we'll swap but open it up a bit so that K has access to the second floor with the gate at the top of the stairs, and then we'll open it to the bottom of the stairs (so basically K and T switching places). And we should probably sprinkle in a few sessions of closing K in the kitchen area again because that's where they have the most room and line of sight to interact and possibly play.

Video forthcoming!
 
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Sorry, I have to run, but I'm sure you can dissect the video much better than I can anyway. But just FYI T has mostly finished her food except for scraps, K has left 75% as I said. In case you think that has anything to do with anything.
This was maybe 5 minutes after K had originally left her food behind, she was coming back from using the litter box perhaps? I don't remember even though it happened less than an hour ago.
 

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".it's really exasperating!" - I know. Have been there many times.

"Do you think maybe I'm misinterpreting this and she is bothered by T, and we should maybe move it back from the gate before moving it forward again? I honestly think that she doesn't care about T but is being a brat/wanting to return back to normal." - Sometimes cats are not as hungry. And given the history of being fine eating there it doesn't seem like it would be T's presence. Maybe back it up a touch. When she is hungry she will eat it. How much closer to the gate was the food dish vs the day before?

"K in T's room last night was much better, though around an hour in she got anxious and wanted to be let out.
Near the beginning though, K was at the gate, T came up, and K started huffing and lifting a paw, sort of waiting to strike...but T just flopped over and rolled around a lot, clearly for K's benefit." - An hour is really good. If it starts to seem negative just end it to make sure it is positive. T was trying to communicate to K that T doesn't mean any harm. That is a very submissive position which should K build more trust.

"K ended up playing a tiny bit in the room and she marked a few things." That is great. She wants to share/own the territory as well. VERY good.

"I think what we'll do is continue the swap for a few more days since we can only do about an hour each time. Then we'll swap but open it up a bit so that K has access to the second floor with the gate at the top of the stairs, and then we'll open it to the bottom of the stairs (so basically K and T switching places). And we should probably sprinkle in a few sessions of closing K in the kitchen area again because that's where they have the most room and line of sight to interact and possibly play." - That sounds good. Just take it slow and make sure it is viewed as positive.

On the video - That was pretty tame. A little more forceful on the second pawing but VERY tame on the first. I think K was a little defensive but nothing worrying. T definitely doesn't fear her much. Feel free to try to distract K in a positive way. But overall, I am not worried about that video.
 

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cat nap cat nap Thank you for sharing about Spotty! Sounds like he was too smart for his own good. Haha!
Yes he was too smart for his own good, at times! :)
I'm not sure why I went into such detail, there, but my whole point should have been to let you know that our cats are unique, and they will surprise you many times, as to how clever and smart they are.
Just in case you haven't thought of it yet - have you checked any used/secondhand sites, or stores? Is there Craigslist in Canada?
No, I have not checked any used or secondhand sites, for the aluminum dolly...but thank you for this suggestion.
There are Craiglist, Kijiji, Habitat for Humanity re-stores, Salvation Army and Value Village thrift stores...so yeah, that's an excellent suggestion. (My friend actually found a cat-carrier at a Habitat store, a few years back,...so you just never know what they carry, unless we check them out.) Thanks.
Yes, her paws are super fluffy. I might have to trim the fur between her toes because she's not nearly as neat as K using the litter box, and two nights ago she smushed...something...and we had such a hard time cleaning it (in the end, we wiped her foot about a million times with her running away each time, which got it wet enough eventually, so she licked her foot and cleaned it herself).
That's happened to me before, as well. I ended up carrying around a plastic margarine style tub/small salad tub filled with warm water to try and get my cat's paw placed into the water. That was not fun at all.
Your idea of wiping her foot sounds a lot neater.
A quick update:
K in T's room last night was much better, though around an hour in she got anxious and wanted to be let out.
Near the beginning though, K was at the gate,
T came up, and K started huffing and lifting a paw, sort of waiting to strike...but T just flopped over and rolled around a lot, clearly for K's benefit.
I think T rolled around so much that it confused K, because K didn't end up pawing at the gate.
Then T got bored and ran off, but I think it was a great interaction.

K ended up playing a tiny bit in the room and she marked a few things. Which by her standards is really significant, I think.
Definitely a great interaction. T flopping over and rolling around on the floor,...must have been funny to watch. :lol:
T will win over K, by showing K that there are different ways to play...versus just pawing/striking the gate.
I think what we'll do is continue the swap for a few more days since we can only do about an hour each time. Then we'll swap but open it up a bit so that K has access to the second floor with the gate at the top of the stairs, and then we'll open it to the bottom of the stairs (so basically K and T switching places). And we should probably sprinkle in a few sessions of closing K in the kitchen area again because that's where they have the most room and line of sight to interact and possibly play.
Sounds like a really good plan. :)
 

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Sorry, I have to run, but I'm sure you can dissect the video much better than I can anyway. But just FYI T has mostly finished her food except for scraps, K has left 75% as I said. In case you think that has anything to do with anything.
This was maybe 5 minutes after K had originally left her food behind, she was coming back from using the litter box perhaps? I don't remember even though it happened less than an hour ago.
Watching the video, I do think it has something to do with the food dishes being closer to the gate.

In the beginning, it's amazing because you actually see T rub herself on the gate, and then reach out her paw, through the gate..."almost like wanting to shake hands with K". It's interesting how one cat will copy another, in techniques or styles of play.

Then I see K watching T,... and it actually looks like play, when K first strikes the gate.
T moves back, but also does some 'shadow paw boxing in the air'.
At about the 0:08 mark (again you can notice it when you slow down the video), ...K sniffs the air and seems to look towards T's empty food bowl.

T steps down, and that is where the paw strikes look a bit rougher, but it still could be play...I'm not sure...since K is also again focused on T's empty food bowl.
What's good is that T doesn't really run away, but just turns, and looks, and then lays down. Not really too frightened of K, and it's K that walks away.

I would suggest moving the food dishes back, about a foot or two, from the gate. (a step up or two, in T's case.)

I know the guides say to get them closer and therefore both cats get more used to each other, but in this case, both cats are used to each other. It just seems that K, for whatever reason, decided to not eat her food, and focus once again, on T's side of the gate/food bowl. Does T's food smell better, ...does K think it's better, idk.

I'm not sure why K stopped eating at the gate. Perhaps your theory is right, about K knowing that you will eventually place it back into its original location. That would make sense. Our cats do tell us when, and how they like things, so it's perfectly in line with this situation.

It is important that K eats, though, so if you notice that she just refuses to eat at the gate, then do place it back in the original location.
It's not good to stress K too much, especially since she is sensitive. Not to mention, she would be 'hungry and sensitive'...so that combination is not that good, for having happy cats.

I know you mentioned that you think your gate is 'shoddy'...I don't see that, after all of the 'cat paws/strikes' the gate has taken, it's still standing.
If you can 'design a way', that allows both T and K to get more physical contact, but still be protected, then that would be good.
Looking at the gate, I'm not sure how you attached the wooden slats together, or the actual wire....but if you were to add more wooden slats, either vertically or diagonally then that may strengthen it, ...to allow you to open up some bottom spaces.
(I think anyone who can design something, use what they have, and build it, says a lot about creativity, ingenuity, and practicality. I so admire that. I can build things, but cannot ever make them pretty enough to display. I'm more of a rough builder, and lax off on any finishing touches.)
 
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acari

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Maybe back it up a touch. When she is hungry she will eat it. How much closer to the gate was the food dish vs the day before?
We did back it up yesterday and today and she did eat it all without issue, similar to how it went before (didn't even really bother looking up at T).
That day, it was at the same spot as the day before - as close to the gate as possible, right in front. And the day before, she'd finished her food also without issue.
On the video - That was pretty tame. A little more forceful on the second pawing but VERY tame on the first.
The second pawing is more in line with what we consider "a lot" of aggression from K. At first it seemed like play to us too, but I don't think so for the second time.
I feel like it's very hard to distract her in the lead-up or during it because it happens so quickly, and then she shies away from touch, doesn't listen, and walks away. I know you said that giving a treat is not like rewarding them for the bad behavior but I am super reluctant to give her a treat right after she paws, because I just have a gut feeling that K would take it the wrong way (and paw more as a result).
I give her a treat after she calms down and I'm able to give her a quick pet on the head without her being weird about it.
I ended up carrying around a plastic margarine style tub/small salad tub filled with warm water to try and get my cat's paw placed into the water. That was not fun at all.
We did that with T early on too, when she got (a significant amount of) poop stuck in her tail. It was an absolute nightmare because she was even more skittish back then. We first tried wiping but you know how her tail is extra floofy...well it was extra stuck (gross). We spent the entire night trying to help her and she just wouldn't let us...eventually my partner had to hold her down (and it was very difficult...a 7 lb. cat is apparently stronger than a 160 lb. human...) as I dunked her tail in a dish of water.
Then we had T with a sopping wet tail running away from us into her house...but the wetness made her clean her tail, so she ended up cleaning it herself after all that.
Also gross...but it hasn't happened again.
Did I already tell that story to you? I hope not, sorry if I have.
At about the 0:08 mark (again you can notice it when you slow down the video), ...K sniffs the air and seems to look towards T's empty food bowl.

T steps down, and that is where the paw strikes look a bit rougher, but it still could be play...I'm not sure...since K is also again focused on T's empty food bowl.
You're right, I didn't notice this but it really looks like she's looking at T's plate.
But why...? Cat logic makes no sense to me. T's plate is empty, she can see it's empty, her own plate is almost full and she definitely knows it's there. Why not eat her own food?
It is important that K eats, though, so if you notice that she just refuses to eat at the gate, then do place it back in the original location.
It's not good to stress K too much, especially since she is sensitive. Not to mention, she would be 'hungry and sensitive'...so that combination is not that good, for having happy cats.
Well, to me, it seemed that she was being more bratty than stressed, but of course it's hard to tell for sure. She's finished her food both nights since so we haven't come across it again but unless she really seemed distressed about it I think I wouldn't move her plate back.
That night, I pointed at her food for her and she would sniff it, lick it once or twice, then just look up at me as if there wasn't perfectly edible food there. That's why I don't feel like she was stressed...she wasn't acting like it except for the part where she didn't want to eat.
Unless that does still sound to you like she's stressed? Then I could move it back for her if it happens again...I would bet you anything though that she would start refusing to eat at the gate altogether and just wait for the plate to go back to its "normal" place no matter how far back from the gate we went.
P.S. We make up for wet food she doesn't eat with dry food, please don't worry about her going hungry!
Looking at the gate, I'm not sure how you attached the wooden slats together, or the actual wire....but if you were to add more wooden slats, either vertically or diagonally then that may strengthen it, ...to allow you to open up some bottom spaces.
Basically everything is held together with staples and prayers.
Maybe I could add extra wood at the bottom so it doesn't sit on the ground, and paws can go under? I'll think about it!
But clearly they can touch each other through the wire if they want to, it's just that K is kinda forceful and we also discourage them from doing it normally (T reaches through to paw at the rice bag sometimes).

==========

Update: As mentioned, K is eating her food fine the past two days when we moved her back a foot from the gate.
Site swapping is continuing, it's going about the same. I think K doesn't like being in T's room though. She gets bored and isn't comfortable anywhere (even if I bring a favorite bed up).

Today, it almost seemed like K was waiting for T to appear so they could play, she sat a bit inside the gate looking at the top of the stairs, but T wasn't really interested (for once), so she would only come up for a few seconds before dashing back downstairs. That might have contributed to K's boredom/asking to be let out.

We just put up the gate so that K is in the kitchen again, with T having access to everywhere else in the house, because we haven't done that in a while.

K was settling down in her bed, and I went over to say hello, talk to her, and give a head pat or two. Then I was going to give her a treat...
But suddenly she looked up, and jumped right over my arm to run to the gate - T was at the end of the hall at the bottom of the stairs, and she started and ran up the stairs due to K's sudden motion.
When T came back down and got closer to the gate to see what was happening with K, K started pawing forcefully, and T ran away.
I have no idea what made K act like this.

A little while later, K turkeyed at the gate and T came over cautiously, so I started doling out treats. K just watched T, did the tiniest bit of huffing, but nothing else. T rolled over a lot - definitely for K's benefit, because if K wasn't looking she stopped doing it (cute!). Not that it did anything for K, she just kept glaring and waiting for treats.

We'll keep working on it but so far it seems like things are staying the same. Some positives, some negatives, seemingly no changes in behavior (T friendly and playful, K very moody and pawing).
 

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"We did back it up yesterday and today and she did eat it all without issue, similar to how it went before (didn't even really bother looking up at T)." - Great. Just keep it there for now. Then move it a touch closer in a little while.

"That day, it was at the same spot as the day before - as close to the gate as possible, right in front. And the day before, she'd finished her food also without issue." - Sounds like it was maybe a one off thing. Doesn't seem worrisome.

"The second pawing is more in line with what we consider "a lot" of aggression from K. At first it seemed like play to us too, but I don't think so for the second time." - I wouldn't call it a lot. More than we would like but not worrisome. Pretty normal.

"I feel like it's very hard to distract her in the lead-up or during it because it happens so quickly, and then she shies away from touch, doesn't listen, and walks away. I know you said that giving a treat is not like rewarding them for the bad behavior but I am super reluctant to give her a treat right after she paws, because I just have a gut feeling that K would take it the wrong way (and paw more as a result).
I give her a treat after she calms down and I'm able to give her a quick pet on the head without her being weird about it.' _ just do what you think is best. Whatever helps make it more positive is good.

"As mentioned, K is eating her food fine the past two days when we moved her back a foot from the gate." - great.

"Site swapping is continuing, it's going about the same. I think K doesn't like being in T's room though. She gets bored and isn't comfortable anywhere (even if I bring a favorite bed up)." - Just make sure it is positive. If you think that she is bored that is fine and we can let her out and do less of it. Our goal is to make a positive association with T's scent in T's territory. So making it as positive as possible is really our goal to make that positive association.

"
Today, it almost seemed like K was waiting for T to appear so they could play, she sat a bit inside the gate looking at the top of the stairs, but T wasn't really interested (for once), so she would only come up for a few seconds before dashing back downstairs. That might have contributed to K's boredom/asking to be let out." - Awwwwww, wow, if accurate that is REALLY positive. K's actions.

"K was settling down in her bed, and I went over to say hello, talk to her, and give a head pat or two. Then I was going to give her a treat...But suddenly she looked up, and jumped right over my arm to run to the gate - T was at the end of the hall at the bottom of the stairs, and she started and ran up the stairs due to K's sudden motion. When T came back down and got closer to the gate to see what was happening with K, K started pawing forcefully, and T ran away. I have no idea what made K act like this." - When things are different (change) then cats can get more defensive etc. I am guessing that was what it was. Not too surprising.

"A little while later, K turkeyed at the gate and T came over cautiously, so I started doling out treats. K just watched T, did the tiniest bit of huffing, but nothing else. T rolled over a lot - definitely for K's benefit, because if K wasn't looking she stopped doing it (cute!). Not that it did anything for K, she just kept glaring and waiting for treats." - Sounds positive that K was not negative (really) and T is showing submissiveness (trying to let K know there is not threat).

I think there is some progress here. I do see progress in K and T's actions are going to really help. Just keep doing what you are doing.
 

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We did that with T early on too, when she got (a significant amount of) poop stuck in her tail. It was an absolute nightmare because she was even more skittish back then. We first tried wiping but you know how her tail is extra floofy...well it was extra stuck (gross). We spent the entire night trying to help her and she just wouldn't let us...eventually my partner had to hold her down (and it was very difficult...a 7 lb. cat is apparently stronger than a 160 lb. human...) as I dunked her tail in a dish of water.
Then we had T with a sopping wet tail running away from us into her house...but the wetness made her clean her tail, so she ended up cleaning it herself after all that.
Also gross...but it hasn't happened again.
Did I already tell that story to you? I hope not, sorry if I have.
Goodness, no, I have not heard that story before. :eek2: :blush:
Umm, I know I should not be smiling at all, at this story, but it's the way you describes the... "7 lb. cat is apparently stronger than a 160 lb. human..." :biggrin: Oh, gosh, I can actually picture this in my head, and the visual is both cute, accurate and astonishing, all at the same time. I'm not sure who I feel more sorry for, in this instance, your partner for having to hold T, you for having to dunk the tail, or you both for having to clean up all the water, mess, etc. :barfgreen: :) :wink:

On the bright side, knock on wood, it hasn't happened again, and T took care of her 'sopping wet tail' in her house.
You both learned some valuable lessons, about the best ways to clean poop from cats' fur/tails.
And best of all....T is not as skittish as she was back then....that has to be an all around great thing. :cloud9:
(See I'm glad to know, that all us cat-people have stories like this. If we can deal with poop, we can deal with anything.) :thumbsup:
So glad it hasn't happened again, though. Way to go T, and your floofy tail. :lol:
You're right, I didn't notice this but it really looks like she's looking at T's plate.
But why...?
Cat logic makes no sense to me. T's plate is empty, she can see it's empty, her own plate is almost full and she definitely knows it's there. Why not eat her own food?
I don't know, exactly, but what calicosrspecial mentioned before, about a cat seeing 'the grass is greener on the other side' makes sense. And some cats do want to know what's in the other plate, ...or like to switch plates, at times,...even when the food is entirely the same. Cats do have extra sensitive sense of smell, so not sure if it has to do with smelling something different.

K does seem to have a pattern of wanting the treat/food which is on the other side of the gate...or very near to the gate.
So maybe K got a little distracted by T's bowl.

Or perhaps K wanted to eat at this time, but then somehow got irritated that T wanted to play?
Though, you did say that K could have eaten at other times, and just either didn't want to, or was not really hungry.

(My cats do not eat right beside each other. There is at least 3-4 feet between bowls, because I want them to have their own space, and notice how much each of them eats.)
The intro guides emphasize the 'getting the bowls closer' for cats to feel more trust and acceptance, but nothing really wrong about 2-3 feet of space.
Well, to me, it seemed that she was being more bratty than stressed, but of course it's hard to tell for sure. She's finished her food both nights since so we haven't come across it again but unless she really seemed distressed about it I think I wouldn't move her plate back.
That night, I pointed at her food for her and she would sniff it, lick it once or twice, then just look up at me as if there wasn't perfectly edible food there. That's why I don't feel like she was stressed...she wasn't acting like it except for the part where she didn't want to eat.
Unless that does still sound to you like she's stressed? Then I could move it back for her if it happens again...I would bet you anything though that she would start refusing to eat at the gate altogether and just wait for the plate to go back to its "normal" place no matter how far back from the gate we went.
P.S. We make up for wet food she doesn't eat with dry food, please don't worry about her going hungry!
That's really good to know that K has gone back to finishing her food.
Perhaps K was not very hungry that other day. As long as K is eating something, then that's great.
Basically everything is held together with staples and prayers.
Maybe I could add extra wood at the bottom so it doesn't sit on the ground, and paws can go under? I'll think about it!
But clearly they can touch each other through the wire if they want to, it's just that K is kinda forceful and we also discourage them from doing it normally (T reaches through to paw at the rice bag sometimes).
Well, staples and prayers are pretty powerful things. :)
I thought there would maybe be some extra screws, screw holes, or bolts....but hey, as long as it's working.
If you can add the extra wood at the bottom, and make it safe enough, so as not to tumble over, then that would be a good idea.

I think it will help you get a better indication of how K will handle playing with T, and how each cat will adjust to the other cat's play styles. :bluepaw::greenpaw:
 

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Update: As mentioned, K is eating her food fine the past two days when we moved her back a foot from the gate.
Site swapping is continuing,
it's going about the same. I think K doesn't like being in T's room though. She gets bored and isn't comfortable anywhere (even if I bring a favorite bed up).

Today, it almost seemed like K was waiting for T to appear so they could play, she sat a bit inside the gate looking at the top of the stairs, but T wasn't really interested (for once), so she would only come up for a few seconds before dashing back downstairs. That might have contributed to K's boredom/asking to be let out.
Yay, for K eating at the gate again.
It's good that K was waiting at the gate ready for K to appear. Shows that K's more accepting, and interested in T.
T's just too busy exploring, I guess.
We just put up the gate so that K is in the kitchen again, with T having access to everywhere else in the house, because we haven't done that in a while.

K was settling down in her bed, and I went over to say hello, talk to her, and give a head pat or two. Then I was going to give her a treat...
But suddenly she looked up, and jumped right over my arm to run to the gate - T was at the end of the hall at the bottom of the stairs, and she started and ran up the stairs due to K's sudden motion.
When T came back down and got closer to the gate to see what was happening with K
, K started pawing forcefully, and T ran away.
I have no idea what made K act like this.
It sounds to me like K really wants to play with T.
Though K's style of playing is much more rougher than T's.
If T was also in motion at this time, or shortly before, then this would cause K to spring into motion, too.
Actually any movement by T, or even noticing T, could also cause K to react, so scratch that last part.
A little while later, K turkeyed at the gate and T came over cautiously, so I started doling out treats. K just watched T, did the tiniest bit of huffing, but nothing else. T rolled over a lot - definitely for K's benefit, because if K wasn't looking she stopped doing it (cute!). Not that it did anything for K, she just kept glaring and waiting for treats.
This is good. By you giving treats, at exactly the same time, as T also rolling...then K will come to associate the fun rolling action of T as good and acceptable.
Doesn't matter if K stopped looking, or continued glaring,...still K waited for treats, and was aware entirely of T's actions.
You're still making both T and K being at the gate a very positive thing.
We'll keep working on it but so far it seems like things are staying the same. Some positives, some negatives, seemingly no changes in behavior (T friendly and playful, K very moody and pawing).
I think the challenge will be to get both K and T's play styles to mesh.
You're still building confidence in both cats, and giving plenty of positive associations.
If you were to look back from the beginning, enormous strides have been made in both K and T.

K might look like she's taking more time in warming up to T, but actually K has been fairly consistent in adapting to the small and large changes that you are making.
For instance, in changing territories, or site swaps, these are huge changes for cats, and they don't really like huge changes, ...so by K adapting, even if it looks to be tremendously slow...she's still doing it. It shows a lot of progress.
Also, K might not be willing to play at all times like T does, but as long as you can still get her to play half the time, or more, then you are still making progress.

All in all, you are doing really well. A lot of work, but looking from the outside in, there is a lot of progress.
I hope you're relaxing, too, and enjoying parts of the process. :catrub:
 
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